Any electrical experts? (1 Viewer)

Nick · Apr 14, 2020

In the back room I've had no light fitted for years, I've got a light and want to fit it but no idea how and where.

I think it's on a loop of all the downstairs lights and when I try one all the others don't work with the switch etc.

Put a picture of the cables I have and the light, how do I figure where to get the power from?

djr8369 · Apr 14, 2020

I don't know what you mean with your middle sentence?

Before you do anything make sure you turn off the circuit breaker for the ring main so you don't give yourself a shock.

It's hard to see what is going where in the first picture but as I recall you you tend to have a permanent live line which is probably the two red cables and a switched live line which is sometimes one red and one black (based on your picture, the colours can vary depending on when your house was wired!). Is the room part of a two way switch, like on a landing where you can turn the light on from upstairs or downstairs? As it looks like you have too many cables for a normal setup?

Without knowing the details I think you would want the switched live to go to N and the permanent live to go to L. Obviously earth goes to earth.

Sorry that isn't very clear or definitive, I'm sure there's a practicing electrician who will be able to suss out what is going on from what you have provided.

shmmeee · Apr 14, 2020

I am not an electrician, but isn’t it just live to live, Earth to earth and neutral to neutral, seems like you’ve got all three on each picture.

Hard to tell what’s connected on the first pic tho.

skybluetony176 · Apr 14, 2020

Can you take a picture of the cables from a different angle? It’s hard to get someone perspective of the cables from that one picture.
It looks like you have 3 groups of cables coming in.
It looks like the two reds that are connected together in a terminal block (choc block) should remain that way as it’s a loop, the red that’s been terminated in the terminal block on its own should go to your live on your new fitting, can’t make out what’s going on with the black cables, is there 2 or 3? They may not all be neutrals, 1 or more might be part of the loop hence asking for another photo from a different angle. Your earths can all go into the earth terminal of the fitting, you could just do with some more earth sleeving to insulate them.

Nick · Apr 14, 2020

Cheers, I'll get a different angle later.

If I disconnect the reds then none of the lights work so that's on the loop.

I probably need a multimeter to see what's got power when the switch is on don't I?

Its only a single switch but I'll have another go later with trial and error

OffenhamSkyBlue · Apr 14, 2020

1. Get a short length of twin-core-and-earth cable and prepare the ends.
2. IN GENERAL ... you would run the brown cable from the connector block containing the RED wire to the L terminal on your light fitting.
3. Run the blue cable from the BLACK connector block to the N terminal on your light.
4. The bare (earth) wire - which should be sleeved with yellow and green sleeving, but it's not critical - should run from the GREEN/YELLOW connector block to the earth (middle) terminal on your light.

CAVEAT - i'm not sure why one of the live (red) cables appears to connect directly to the neutral wire - that is quite likely be the switched live, but as @djr8369 said, it looks like this isn't a conventional set-up, and you may have a two-way switch somewhere. If you have an electrical screwdriver, the red connector should be live, and the black only live when you turn the switch on.

"Good luck"!!

OffenhamSkyBlue · Apr 14, 2020

An electrical screwdriver is cheaper than a multimeter! Provided the black isn't live you should be ok taking that to the N terminal.

rob9872 · Apr 14, 2020

fk it connect em up, what's the worst that can happen?

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Apr 14, 2020

shmmeee said:
I am not an electrician, but isn’t it just live to live, Earth to earth and neutral to neutral, seems like you’ve got all three on each picture.

Hard to tell what’s connected on the first pic tho.

Absolutely not, and judging by that it's certainly not a loop in system, unless its the end of the run.
Turn off the power and then go to another ceiling fitting and see if it's a loop in system.
If it's similar to what's in that picture then you then need to undo a light switch in the wall and check that. If it's full of cables (usually 3 lots of twin and earth ) than it's a loop in but done via the switch which is unusual but perfectly legal. You should have a red cable somewhere sheathed in brown which represents live switched. If you haven't then you need to find the actual main supply . Two of the three will be and the third cable will be between switch and ligh fitting.
Lighting is more complicated that standard 2.5mm socket ring main.

wingy · Apr 14, 2020

Blue to bits!!

shmmeee · Apr 14, 2020

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Absolutely not, and judging by that it's certainly not a loop in system, unless its the end of the run.
Turn off the power and then go to another ceiling fitting and see if it's a loop in system.
If it's similar to what's in that picture then you then need to undo a light switch in the wall and check that. If it's full of cables (usually 3 lots of twin and earth ) than it's a loop in but done via the switch which is unusual but perfectly legal. You should have a red cable somewhere sheathed in brown which represents live switched. If you haven't then you need to find the actual main supply . Two of the three will be and the third cable will be between switch and ligh fitting.
Lighting is more complicated that standard 2.5mm socket ring main.

Good to see the old internet rule of the quickest way to get a right answer is to post a wrong one is still valid

Flying Fokker · Apr 14, 2020

Nick said:
Cheers, I'll get a different angle later.

If I disconnect the reds then none of the lights work so that's on the loop.

I probably need a multimeter to see what's got power when the switch is on don't I?

Its only a single switch but I'll have another go later with trial and error

Earth to earth, live to live otherwise you could be in direct contact with an Angel.

I’m 90 % red green colour blind. The first couple of shocks knock you back but it’s just a case of getting up and persevering. Oh. And it’s a good idea to do what others say and turn the electric off.

BTW...nothing is impossible. Google it or YouTube.

Nick · Apr 14, 2020

Yeah I turn that breaker off before doing anything.

I haven't got a multi meter or electrical screwdriver so I'll get one

fernandopartridge · Apr 14, 2020

[sucks teeth]
HMMM not sure about that

[winces]
Gonna cost a few quid to sort this out

Nick · Apr 14, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
[sucks teeth]
HMMM not sure about that

[winces]
Gonna cost a few quid to sort this out

Depends if you have the parts in the van? Cash ok?

OffenhamSkyBlue · Apr 14, 2020

Ah, ok - think i might have it, but it is confused a bit by the angle of the photo and the fact that one of the cables is masked by the metal mount-thingy, so it is actually quite standard (though made complicated by note using a standard ceiling rose arrangement .

There are TWO black wires going into the uppermost terminal (as viewed) of the right-hand-most connector block - this is the NEUTRAL block, and should be connected via a blue cable to the N terminal on your light fitting.

The pair of reds going to the left-hand connector block are the lives of the circuit. You don't generally wire a light fitting to a live in this arrangement - you use the neutral (above) and the SWITCHED live.
The only bit i'm not sure about (due to the quality of the photo) is whether there is a single black wire going into the right-hand end of the block at the 6 o'clock position in the photo. If there IS - this would normally be labelled as the switched live by a red or brown sheathing at the end - and should be connected using a BROWN wire to the L terminal.

Send as many pics at different angles as you can (and pull the blocks apart a bit so we can see what''s going on, to be sure) and can advise further,

Nick · Apr 14, 2020

Thank you, I'll get some pics and post them so it's clear.

chiefdave · Apr 14, 2020

OffenhamSkyBlue · Apr 14, 2020

That connector block at 12 o'clock is bothering me! You normally put all three live wires into a common connector, or there will be a break in the circuit - either the next light in the ring or the switch for this light will have lost its supply. But equally, why does the bare wire seem to pass all the way through (as if to say "don't use me for anything else")? Has it been cut off at the block for some reason. It's also not very well insulated, with a permanently live bare wire sticking out the end, not far from a metal fixture. There must be something else going on ...!

Gynnsthetonic · Apr 14, 2020

I am an electrician Nick if you want to PM me.

Houchens Head · Apr 14, 2020

Wet yer fingers, grab the bare ends and if you're still standing, then you'll be fine. Otherwise, it was nice knowing ya! Where do we send the flowers?

BodicoteSkyBlue · Apr 14, 2020

Is he alive still?

OffenhamSkyBlue · Apr 14, 2020

Gynnsthetonic said:
I am an electrician Nick if you want to PM me.

Boooooooo! Will you tell us the answer though??

stupot07 · Apr 14, 2020

To be honest, it's hard to give an answer, looking at those wires.

Very often with lights, you'll have a jumble of wires which break down into 4 main categories

- switch live
- neutral
- earth
And
- permanent live

The first 3 would be the wired into your fitting, but the permanent live should be connected together in the connector block.

If I came across that, I'd have to get my tester out to work out what everything it.

The danger is, as twin and earth is red and black and earth, that often the black can be used as the switch live.

Sorry this will make little sense.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

cmoncity · Apr 14, 2020

Nick said:
In the back room I've had no light fitted for years, I've got a light and want to fit it but no idea how and where.

I think it's on a loop of all the downstairs lights and when I try one all the others don't work with the switch etc.

Put a picture of the cables I have and the light, how do I figure where to get the power from?

Hi nick I'm a sparky..two lives together are live loops keep them in a connector separate as they keep your feed other lights...the single red is a switch wire which connects to live in your new light..blacks in same connector connect to the neutral N on new fitting and earth wires to earth terminal on fitting...you should have green and yellow sleeving over bare earth wires. Obviously turn circuit breaker off before doing anything ..obviously that's just going on what I can see and you can never be sure without checking it out for myself but that would be a standard wiring situation at a light..hope this helps..regards lee

cmoncity · Apr 14, 2020

Nick said:
In the back room I've had no light fitted for years, I've got a light and want to fit it but no idea how and where.

I think it's on a loop of all the downstairs lights and when I try one all the others don't work with the switch etc.

Put a picture of the cables I have and the light, how do I figure where to get the power from?

Any other lights in the room??

Nick · Apr 14, 2020

Thanks All very much.

I'll have a look tomorrow in the light

Gynnsthetonic · Apr 14, 2020

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
Boooooooo! Will you tell us the answer though??

No, I'm quite enjoying all of the other replies to Nick's thread, most of them make absolute no sense, keep em coming

Nick · Apr 14, 2020

Gynnsthetonic said:
No, I'm quite enjoying all of the other replies to Nick's thread, most of them make absolute no sense, keep em coming

Trying to get me killed?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Apr 14, 2020

Nick said:
In the back room I've had no light fitted for years, I've got a light and want to fit it but no idea how and where.

I think it's on a loop of all the downstairs lights and when I try one all the others don't work with the switch etc.

Put a picture of the cables I have and the light, how do I figure where to get the power from?

Why do you have Wasps colours on the wall?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 15, 2020

Can't help with the question, other than to say if you have to ask maybe you shouldn't be fucking around with it?

But I also wondered why in this day and age stuff like lights, plugs etc aren't on a 'plug-and-play' type universal adaptor to make it quicker and safer to change and would allow even the worst DIYer in the world to do it. We've got things like USB, HDMI etc which allow various devices with different power usages etc to plug into the same socket so why not for home fittings? If I want to change a bulb on my car I just have one lead I have to unclip for the whole light cluster to be removed.

Nick · Apr 15, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Can't help with the question, other than to say if you have to ask maybe you shouldn't be fucking around with it?

But I also wondered why in this day and age stuff like lights, plugs etc aren't on a 'plug-and-play' type universal adaptor to make it quicker and safer to change and would allow even the worst DIYer in the world to do it. We've got things like USB, HDMI etc which allow various devices with different power usages etc to plug into the same socket so why not for home fittings? If I want to change a bulb on my car I just have one lead I have to unclip for the whole light cluster to be removed.

Would be so much easier, probably could just put some simple bullet connectors on or something if doing a proper job.

Houchens Head · Apr 15, 2020

I managed to fit a new wall socket the other day...…..

Houchens Head · Apr 15, 2020

And I got rid of the bloke who fitted my smoke alarm ……….

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 15, 2020

Nick said:
Would be so much easier, probably could just put some simple bullet connectors on or something if doing a proper job.

Well there's an idea for the sparkies on here. Design and patent a universal connector for light switches and electrical sockets for the home. Become a rich fucker and buy the club.

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