Anyone else losing confidence in Thorn? (2 Viewers)

sw88 · Sep 20, 2011

Ipswich had 10 of 11 players on the pitch who had Premiership experience. We had, what, zero?? (Please correct me if im wrong!). Our team also included (as it had all season) 3 recent academy graduates! Even on paper, minus recent form, we were never going to win really! They had a hell of alot more experience, looked like they wanted it more, were alot better when it counted, and could still play Chopra who was simply woeful in his finishing (and also offside for the 2nd goal, but im not making excuses).

Lets back Andy, rather than get on his back! It isnt going to change anytime soon. Lets remember, the last time SISU had their man in charge, Coleman went 14 games (I think it was) without a win, and kept his job (keeping it so long he was able to go a second stint of shit results until they finally saw sense........after the season had ended) so SISU ARE NOT going to sack Thorn after one heavy defeat! And by heavy, im obviously referring to a 3-0 defeat. Not like we lost 8-2 or anything silly like that.

PUSB

Grendel · Sep 20, 2011

Keogh Is a good Championship Player

Otis said:
He is fine on the deck but struggles in the air and is not commanding enough and quite often let's the attacker get the better of him. He worries me a little at centre back. Neither Cranie or Keogh are commanding enough.

Keogh is one of the few players we have who is good enough at this level. However, he is obviously a right back and not a centre half. Even the Thorn supporters must be bewildered that he started the season out of position when this is the only area we are flush with players. Why a 17 year old is deemed better that a player who played right back all last season is really odd. Wood, Cameron and McPake were all ready to start the season. Very strange.

AngryAnt · Sep 20, 2011

Not losing confidence in Thorn, he's managing us with hardly any money and a threadbare squad. If sisu would have given him money and we're getting thrashed every week then yes i'd be losing faith in him but as it stands right now i think he's doing an alright job.
Okay, it was a pretty gutless defeat last night but it was pretty much men against boys in terms of experience and while he could have changed the tactics we never do well at Ipswich .

kg82 · Sep 20, 2011

Wait... People AREN'T joking when they say they're losing confidence in Thorn?!?! WOW

kg82 · Sep 20, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
Keogh says he is a RB. On the record he has said he'll play where the manager selects him if he thinks it's best for the side-he's a good honest pro, of course he will. But I have it on rock solid authority that he would rather be at RB!

Agree with you otherwise though. And yes, AT is bound to make some mistakes. But the hand he's been dealt makes his task near impossible. The reason he struggled to expand on the point about it being a "game too far" for the kids is because he doesn't really have alternatives. McPake or Cameron in and Keogh to RB is one, and as it's the only real area that I disagree with AT on, I'll be most chuffed if we see that on Saturday. Nowt against Cyrus, or Gael, but the kids just need a rest and to regroup-like Cameron and Clarke and even Turner have done in the past. It's mental fatigue as much as physical. We are the footballing equivalent of the Victorians sending kids down the mines on 60 hour weeks.

Fair do's, I thought I'd read somewhere that Keogh see's himself as a CB. Absolutely about the youngsters by the way, they need rest, that was obvious yesterday. Thing is, Thorn obviously knew but the position we're in it sounds like he was taking a chance. I don't mind that and hopefully it hasn't done them any harm.

Spanieldencer · Sep 20, 2011

For pity sake, I don't believe what i'm reading.
A win against Derby and it was all 'Thorn is amazing, he got it so right, we aren't going down' and one loss later using the same tactics and people say he needs the sack, get a grip.
Everyone over the last few games has been going on about how good Crainie and Keogh have been, one shakey performance and people say Cameron and Wood is a better combination, have you forgotten Camerons tendancy to make everyone's arse clench just because he's got the ball? And Wood, don't get me started on Wood.
How can you say that Crainie and Keogh isn't our strongest back two?
And no, Thorn did do the right thing, 90% of the time that a team loses, people moan about how the manager didn't make changes until last minute, sorry, i'm a big fan of Bigi's, but he was being ineffective, and kudos to Thorn for noticing and thinking, i'm getting him out of there, he's no use to us right now, at least he has the balls to do that.

Thankyou for listening (or not listening respectively)

Rant terminated.

Paxman II · Sep 21, 2011

I'm not a big lover of the 'burn out' remarks. Frankly It's all they do as professional footballers. Should they train less in case of burn out?
Sick of that sound bite. Tbh Bigi would run his socks off all day if asked for every game and still not be burned out! The fact was he was the least effective in the middle for us and we needed a bit more guile in McShefrey. Though personally I would have not done it. Clingan plays well with Bigi and McShefrey does not.
Christie has been terrific this season and had an average game but would not drop him on Saturday and would not drop Biggi either. Others played worse and that was Cranie and Keogh. Cameron is a must for Saturday. Take your pick who plays alongside him.
McSherfrey gets his spot for Baker.
It's not that bad and Thorn must prove that by not over reacting. It's one of those games we lost and looked poor at times. We did pass the ball well and have the majority of possession for long periods - it wasn't all that bad and for all the talk of |Ipswich's 'big boys' I thought they looked average and we made them look better than they were. Bullard has lost his legs, Chopra is a man going through motions and failing and Scotland is in flashes. Bowyer I hardly noticed.
Cody looks to me to be quick and will pounce on anything. Think he will score plenty. Juke worked hard and was a thorn in their side. Nah we just didn't get it right and simply handed them the game.
As Thorn rightly said " we are better than that" And we are. This is where Thorn's management will get tested now. I'm still confident if slightly disappointed as I thought with a bit of endeavour we could have had Ipswich.

Otis · Sep 21, 2011

Tis true though Paxman, whether you like it or not. If you listen to the people within the game, coaches, managers, players etc., then they all talk of the possibility of 'burn out' for young players. The seasoned experienced players have been playing week in week out for years in pressure situations for whole seasons at a time and these young players haven't. They develop over a period of years. When these kids are playing youth or academy games there is very little pressure on them to actually win the game, it is not that important. It is all about their development and learning and honing their skills. Results are secondary.

Throw them into the lions' den of the Championship where it is all about results and consistent performances week in week out and it's a completely different world.

When City were on tv against Derby the commentators on there were speaking about the very thing of burn out for the likes of Christie and Bigi. Whether anyone likes it or not it does happen and even though we don't fully comprehend it ourselves as supporters and you may not be a 'big lover' of it, the people within the game know it to be fact.

brinner · Sep 21, 2011

Thorn has been chucked in at the deep end with a threadbare squad even jose mourinho would have a job on his hands keeping us up this season!

he is a novice manager that needs time and he will make mistakes, problem is we dont really need that right now, tho as i just said a top experienced manager would struggle to do anything with our current squad so we may aswell let thorn learn now and stick by him and then hopefully he will be ready willing and able to help us mount a promotion challenge next season.

if he manages to keep us up this season the man would deserve a medal! the majority of the fans know the reasons why we will struggle this season, most of us have predicted relegation, this season is pretty much going as expected so far, infact its going everso slightly better than i thought at the minute as i predicted we would be botton after 6 games!

i think thorn cud turn out to be a good manager, needs a bit of time and if he had a bit of money to sign 3 good midfielders to fit in to his diamond i think he could turn us in to a pretty good side at this level.

itl get even worse in january when we sell more players!

the problem is sisu and they need to be eradicated.

oldskyblue58 · Sep 21, 2011

kduffy said:
OK what other club would ever consider him as manager?

You dont know there isnt another club that wouldnt nor do I.

He might not be the worlds greatest manager (lets face it if he was he wouldnt be at CCFC now would he) but he is the one we have with little prospect of the club paying out for someone with a proven track record (Reid, Coleman, Dowie, Atkinson, Boothroyd..... or maybe a McClaren because as a really experienced ex england manager he is doing well isnt he ) and all the success they can bring. People need to face facts we shop in the bargain basement because thats all we can afford. As yet AT has had 7 games this season with a very small squad filled in with inexperienced youngsters, the season isnt over and we are not miles adrift at the bottom of the table, with a bit of luck we could have had more points, yet after one 3 nil defeat we get people coming up with AT out.

Would he have been my choice for the job ..... no. But he is who we have and we are 7 games into the season, bit early to hit the panic button when we all knew it would be like this before the season started. He is on a steep learning curve, at a club that has achieved little in a decades, with no money to spend, and a threadbare squad you tell me who would do better ? Also too early to pass judgement and put the blame on AT when there are a lot of other factors affecting the position we find ourselves in.

Think people should support the guy properly and not panic because we lose one game 3 nil. But thats how some CCFC fans are................. bi polar, unrealistic

kg82 · Sep 21, 2011

oldskyblue58 said:
CCFC fans are................. bi polar, unrealistic

A very fitting summary (although it's all football fans, not just ours!)

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Sep 21, 2011

sw88 said:
Ipswich had 10 of 11 players on the pitch who had Premiership experience. We had, what, zero?? (Please correct me if im wrong!). Our team also included (as it had all season) 3 recent academy graduates! Even on paper, minus recent form, we were never going to win really! They had a hell of alot more experience, looked like they wanted it more, were alot better when it counted, and could still play Chopra who was simply woeful in his finishing (and also offside for the 2nd goal, but im not making excuses).

Lets back Andy, rather than get on his back! It isnt going to change anytime soon. Lets remember, the last time SISU had their man in charge, Coleman went 14 games (I think it was) without a win, and kept his job (keeping it so long he was able to go a second stint of shit results until they finally saw sense........after the season had ended) so SISU ARE NOT going to sack Thorn after one heavy defeat! And by heavy, im obviously referring to a 3-0 defeat. Not like we lost 8-2 or anything silly like that.

PUSB

Mcsheffery, Cranie have premiership experience. ROD and Juke came from premiership clubs but I don't think they had experience at that level.

kg82 · Sep 21, 2011

CCFC said:
Mcsheffery, Cranie have premiership experience. ROD and Juke came from premiership clubs but I don't think they had experience at that level.

That's basically 2 players! And even then McSheffrey didn't get much playing time. Look at Ipswichs team, the only ones without prem experience were Cresswell and Delaney was a sub that came on!

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Sep 21, 2011

kg82 said:
That's basically 2 players! And even then McSheffrey didn't get much playing time. Look at Ipswichs team, the only ones without prem experience were Cresswell and Delaney was a sub that came on!

Mcsheffrey's first season in the prem he was a first teamer and played 30+ games.

Anyway, I get your point they had way more quality and experience on the pitch than us in all positions.

Mumford and Daughter · Sep 21, 2011

kg82 said:
That's basically 2 players! And even then McSheffrey didn't get much playing time. Look at Ipswichs team, the only ones without prem experience were Cresswell and Delaney was a sub that came on!

Ok, this was the same Ipswich team who got smashed 7-1 and 5-2 already this season. Two sides to every view.

kg82 · Sep 21, 2011

Did I say they didn't? Some people are just naturally down on this club and the team, I was giving the opposite view to CCFC, nothing to do with any results anywhere.

Mumford and Daughter · Sep 21, 2011

kg82 said:
Did I say they didn't? Some people are just naturally down on this club and the team, I was giving the opposite view to CCFC, nothing to do with any results anywhere.

But thats the problem in my eyes. We need to look at the negatives to combat the issues.

We play a Leicester team who were struggling (Going by results after us) and whom were down to 10 men and could capitalise.
A Birmingham team struggling and missing key players.
A poor Palace team which we conceded 2 late goals so tad unlucky.
A decent result against Boro albeit could have been smashed 3 or 4 by half time.
A poor Watford team who could easily have won
A dubious penalty gave us the 3 points because the only team that looked like scoring before the pen were derby.
Very poor defending against a out of sorts Ipswich team.

To me our fixtures have been easier compared to what weve got coming up and if we keep glossing over minor positives then were only hiding away from the real issues. Thats my view and i know alot will disagree. As i say just hope im proved wrong.

kg82 · Sep 21, 2011

Hold on hold on. How can you say a team that's struggling going by results since then?! You can't see into the future and considering Leicester are in the top half I don't think they're struggling that much. As for playing against 10 men. You saw us get Baker sent off too right. We were the better team in that the period where we were playing against 10 men but I'm pretty sure our lack of fire power has been talked about. Birmingham just got relegated from the prem and we played them at their place. Again, pretty sure lack of fire power has been talked about. Palace was naive, no excuses. WE got a draw at Boro and you're complaining it could have been 3 or 4 - it wasn't. People complain when fans say the other team were lucky when we outplay them but lose or draw. Don't turn it round the other way. Watford have just hit some form so I think that's a fairly good result. Were you watching the same game against Derby? First 5 mins of second half was their purple patch, they did nothing after that and there was only ever going to be one tesm that scored and it wasn't them. That's just making stuff up to back up a point. Ipswich, bad result and the first time we've played badly in the league this season. Wow, no team ever gets beaten 3-0. My main gripe is that you're patience is so short and fickle you've decided you're losing patience with the manager already. I'm sorry, but I'll argue anyone over that point cos I'm a stubborn motherfucker and wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment.

Mumford and Daughter · Sep 21, 2011

kg82 said:
Hold on hold on. How can you say a team that's struggling going by results since then?! You can't see into the future and considering Leicester are in the top half I don't think they're struggling that much. As for playing against 10 men. You saw us get Baker sent off too right. We were the better team in that the period where we were playing against 10 men but I'm pretty sure our lack of fire power has been talked about. Birmingham just got relegated from the prem and we played them at their place. Again, pretty sure lack of fire power has been talked about. Palace was naive, no excuses. WE got a draw at Boro and you're complaining it could have been 3 or 4 - it wasn't. People complain when fans say the other team were lucky when we outplay them but lose or draw. Don't turn it round the other way. Watford have just hit some form so I think that's a fairly good result. Were you watching the same game against Derby? First 5 mins of second half was their purple patch, they did nothing after that and there was only ever going to be one tesm that scored and it wasn't them. That's just making stuff up to back up a point. Ipswich, bad result and the first time we've played badly in the league this season. Wow, no team ever gets beaten 3-0. My main gripe is that you're patience is so short and fickle you've decided you're losing patience with the manager already. I'm sorry, but I'll argue anyone over that point cos I'm a stubborn motherfucker and wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment.

We played Leicester at the best time. They didn’t win for 4 games after us. Thats poor form in my eyes. Blues are 14th and got hammered 4-1 Saturday and lost night on all there Premiership class. We will agree to disagree.

kg82 · Sep 21, 2011

Not agreeing to anything!

Mumford and Daughter · Sep 21, 2011

You carry on, and will come back to this thread in a months time and see what you say then.

Astute · Sep 21, 2011

Mumford and Daughter said:
To me our fixtures have been easier compared to what weve got coming up and if we keep glossing over minor positives then were only hiding away from the real issues. Thats my view and i know alot will disagree. As i say just hope im proved wrong.

So we have played easier games than the ones coming up?

So far we have played

Fester H 9th
Brum A 15th
Palace A 12th
Watford H 18th
Midds A 2nd
Derby H 4th
Ipswich A 13th

Next games

Reading H 14th
Blackpool H 7th
Barnsley A 17th
Forest H 22nd
Leeds A 11th
Burnley H 20th
Doncaster A 24th
Millwall A 16th

So in the next 8 games we are not playing any top 6 sides. Only one top 10 side. 6 of them are in 14th or below. So other than us there are 10 other teams 14th or below. Two of them are in the bottom 3. Let's see how we look at the end of next month.

kg82 · Sep 21, 2011

Ok, first point, that was a joke and secondly, that comment kind of makes it sound like you WANT Thorn/the team to fail?

Mumford and Daughter · Sep 21, 2011

kg82 said:
Ok, first point, that was a joke and secondly, that comment kind of makes it sound like you WANT Thorn/the team to fail?

Haven't you read what i say? I hope im proved wrong and i'll put my hands and say i was if i do.

kg82 · Sep 21, 2011

Yeah, I've seen that you've said that, but the "lets see where we are next month" is a bit off.

Mumford and Daughter · Sep 21, 2011

Because i feel teams will adapt against the diamond formation and will have no plan b. Thats why i said that and i hope we come back to it (this thread) in a month and im wrong.

Mumford and Daughter · Nov 3, 2011

Astute said:
So we have played easier games than the ones coming up?

So far we have played

Fester H 9th
Brum A 15th
Palace A 12th
Watford H 18th
Midds A 2nd
Derby H 4th
Ipswich A 13th

Next games

Reading H 14th
Blackpool H 7th
Barnsley A 17th
Forest H 22nd
Leeds A 11th
Burnley H 20th
Doncaster A 24th
Millwall A 16th

So in the next 8 games we are not playing any top 6 sides. Only one top 10 side. 6 of them are in 14th or below. So other than us there are 10 other teams 14th or below. Two of them are in the bottom 3. Let's see how we look at the end of next month.

Well i waited then Astute? The next games were easier you said after Ipswich away. One win and in the bottom 3.

Mumford and Daughter · Nov 3, 2011

kg82 said:
Hold on hold on. How can you say a team that's struggling going by results since then?! You can't see into the future and considering Leicester are in the top half I don't think they're struggling that much. As for playing against 10 men. You saw us get Baker sent off too right. We were the better team in that the period where we were playing against 10 men but I'm pretty sure our lack of fire power has been talked about. Birmingham just got relegated from the prem and we played them at their place. Again, pretty sure lack of fire power has been talked about. Palace was naive, no excuses. WE got a draw at Boro and you're complaining it could have been 3 or 4 - it wasn't. People complain when fans say the other team were lucky when we outplay them but lose or draw. Don't turn it round the other way. Watford have just hit some form so I think that's a fairly good result. Were you watching the same game against Derby? First 5 mins of second half was their purple patch, they did nothing after that and there was only ever going to be one tesm that scored and it wasn't them. That's just making stuff up to back up a point. Ipswich, bad result and the first time we've played badly in the league this season. Wow, no team ever gets beaten 3-0. My main gripe is that you're patience is so short and fickle you've decided you're losing patience with the manager already. I'm sorry, but I'll argue anyone over that point cos I'm a stubborn motherfucker and wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment.

So bottom 3 2 wins all season. Thron still doing a grand job is he?

torchomatic · Nov 3, 2011

Some fans DO want us to lose as it fuels their SISU hate. Hence the "i hope they score five" thread someone posted.

Mumford and Daughter · Nov 3, 2011

torchomatic said:
Some fans DO want us to lose as it fuels their SISU hate. Hence the "i hope they score five" thread someone posted.

I never want us to lose i spend too much money to wanna waste it on watching crap, just pointing out that where many on here thought the next 12 games were easier. league table and results show otherwise

Otis · Nov 3, 2011

We are now 15 games in. Certainly the record is now up for analysis. None of this it;s too early to make judgement and things may improve.

We are where we belong and we have just 2 wins in 15 games and have only scored 11 times. That is pretty pathetic for sure.

torchomatic · Nov 3, 2011

Sorry M&D i wasnt suggesting you were, but some fans do.

Mumford and Daughter · Nov 3, 2011

torchomatic said:
Sorry M&D i wasnt suggesting you were, but some fans do.

i know what you mean and its usually the ones who dont even attend the game

Astute · Nov 3, 2011

Mumford and Daughter said:
Well i waited then Astute? The next games were easier you said after Ipswich away. One win and in the bottom 3.

The hope I had sure was misguided Let's try again.

Our better results are against teams nearer the top of the table. Watch us pick up points in the next 6 games

Mumford and Daughter · Nov 3, 2011

Astute said:
The hope I had sure was misguided Let's try again.

Our better results are against teams nearer the top of the table. Watch us pick up points in the next 6 games

... will take your word m8

Anyone else losing confidence in Thorn? (2 Viewers)

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