AT away from home (3 Viewers)

hitmanhearns · Jul 26, 2012

With the squad taking shape signs are looking good and i truly trust Thorn when it comes to finding players, however what worries me is that you dont turn around an abysmal away record by simply dropping down a division. I believe the most important transfer has been completely missed and that is a NEW manager and I fear it will become blatantly apparent in our away form and that´s what will do him in come november.

However the light in the tunnel could be CARSLEY and Shaw-Harrison is gone and he did fail both with coleman, boothroyd and last season-In hindsight he was a permanent problem maybe new ideas and motivation and Thorn, less stifled by an institution such as Harrison, could make us confident away from home?

L1 is better than most ppl think. of the last 3 seasons winners, 2 are now in the premier league.... and we are cov so you all know which way it´s gonna go, right?

Am I being too negative?

Godiva · Jul 26, 2012

hitmanhearns said:
With the squad taking shape signs are looking good and i truely trust Thorn when it comes to finding players, however what worries me is that you dont turn around an abysmal away record by simply dropping down a division. I believe the most important transfer has been completely missed and that is a NEW manager and I fear it will become blatantly apparent in our away form and that´s what will do him in come november.

However the light in the tunnel could be CARSLEY and Shaw-Harrison is gone and he did fail both with coleman, boothroyd and last season-In hindsight he was a permanent problem maybe new ideas and motivation and Thorn, less stifled by an institution such as Harrison, could make us confident away from home?

L1 is better than most ppl think. of the last 3 seasons winners, 2 are now in the premier league.... and we are cov so you all know which way it´s gonna go, right?

Am I being too negative?

You are pretty much about telling us we will be in PL in two years ... how can that be "too negative"

BinleySkyBlue · Jul 26, 2012

1st post here but a long time lurker

Thorn has had both arms amputated under SISU, never mind only being tied behind his back !

haters gonna hate

flammablepiss · Jul 26, 2012

Hopefully Shaw and AT together can sort something out... the away form was no doubt majorly influenced by psychological factors. If AT did underperform though I wouldn't want Carsley managing. No disrespect to him meant. But if AT goes in the future then we may as well bring in a "manager" not just promote Carsley because he is cheap and has done ok with the academy.

cmoncity · Jul 26, 2012

I dont hate thorn fair play to him for putting his hand up saying give me a go but facts are facts he isnt the most intelligent of people and good managers are very intelligent and as for signing players forget it look at the players we have signed on his recommendation in the past mostly been not good enough.also for me when you call your players by nicknames i.e codes,deegs,sheffs,murph,belly,etc that dosnt command respect from your players surley
wud you be scared of a bollukin off this man ??i wudnt.he has no excuses hes bought his own players in now proof will be in the eating i guess(thorny does alot of that).please andy prove me wrong we all want you to do well but wake up and make some good tactical decisions on the pitch i.e subs. pusb

hitmanhearns · Jul 26, 2012

BinleySkyBlue said:
1st post here but a long time lurker

Thorn has had both arms amputated under SISU, never mind only being tied behind his back !

haters gonna hate

Naaah the hate dogma doesn´t cut it, Thorn is not being judged by his results but somehow by excuses of economical restraints which is the reality and daily life for almost all managers below the Prem. I think his eye for players have been very important for the last 4 seasons but his managerial skills are proven to be subpar, arms tied or not. He wants to play the ball and that´s great but being realistic we need ca 29 wins to get automatic promotion and it Ain´t gonna happen under Thorn. To get a playoff place maximum number of defeats should be no more than 10.

We are always hyping in pre season, I am too, it´s natural, reality is very different though-the top clubs in L1 are more or less on the same level as the top clubs in the championship this has been proven in the last 4 seasons, and that doesn´t bode well for Thorn or any other relegated club.

He will go in november, Carsley will come in and we will take it from there...realize this is gonna take a couple of years-nutin wrong with that.

The biggest problem this club has had for the last 20 yrs is the ongoing inability to recognize the importance of the managerial post. I assure you Lambert or Rodgers would have been sniffing at promotion rather than relegation with the same squads Thorn, Boothroyd and Coleman had. Lambert took the same squad that got relegated and beaten 1-7 at home to colchester in L1 to the Premier League. That´s the impact of finding the right manager and that´s what this club should be concentrating on and the good news is it is very achievable, but you have to recognize it first.

Appointing the club scout is not recognizing it.

Sky Blues · Jul 26, 2012

Binley, welcome! I agree with you.
Hitman, I do not believe Lambert would have got that squad near promotion last season. SISU ripping the spine out a club prior to the season and not replacing it, then taking away the one cutting edge we had in the next transfer window put us on the fast track to relegation. To me Thorn is unproven. He achieved my expectations, which were that the club would be relegated given the players at his disposal. Maybe a David Moyes or somebody could have just kept them up, but I think that would have required a great manager and we can't afford one of those. It doesn't look like Thorn is a great manger based on last season's evidence, but I simply don't know yet how good he is on a level playing field and maybe he'll grow into the job. Now he's had a chance to build a squad I'll find out.
Now is precisely the wrong moment to replace the manager. New managers will want their own players and that means others will be sidelined (witness Rodgers and Carroll at Liverpool). That would leave us looking at more wholesale changes just after Sisu finally let us bring some players in. I can't see them doing that twice in one summer transfer window, can you? Thorn's finally been given a chance to mold a squad. Let's see what he can do with it.

Godiva · Jul 26, 2012

Sky Blues said:
SISU ripping the spine out a club prior to the season and not replacing it, then taking away the one cutting edge we had in the next transfer window put us on the fast track to relegation.

You suggest we should have followed the path of Portsmouth - fast track to liquidation?

Then you go on and say:

Sky Blues said:
Now is precisely the wrong moment to replace the manager. New managers will want their own players and that means others will be sidelined (witness Rodgers and Carroll at Liverpool). That would leave us looking at more wholesale changes just after Sisu finally let us bring some players in. I can't see them doing that twice in one summer transfer window, can you? Thorn's finally been given a chance to mold a squad. Let's see what he can do with it.

... knowing that if sisu hadn't hit the breaks 1½ year ago, we wouldn't have a club to bring players in to.

mattylad · Jul 26, 2012

city fans are the ones holding the club back now! time for a fresh start for everyone and if thorn fails then he will be replaced

Sky Blues · Jul 26, 2012

Godiva said:
You suggest we should have followed the path of Portsmouth - fast track to liquidation?

Then you go on and say:

... knowing that if sisu hadn't hit the breaks 1½ year ago, we wouldn't have a club to bring players in to.

It was right to cut costs to avoid a Pompey scenario, but to cut them in an apparently haphazard manner with no thought as to the consequences for the team and in a way which endangered and ultimately destroyed our Championship status was wrong. I don't hear many people here objecting to the way things have gone this summer, which is cut the wage bill to keep our costs down to meet our diminished means but, crucially, also allowing the manager to raid the free transfer market to bring in some replacements.
Did you get out of bed the wrong side this morning Godiva?

SkyBlueBlood · Jul 26, 2012

hitmanhearns said:
With the squad taking shape signs are looking good and i truly trust Thorn when it comes to finding players, however what worries me is that you dont turn around an abysmal away record by simply dropping down a division. I believe the most important transfer has been completely missed and that is a NEW manager and I fear it will become blatantly apparent in our away form and that´s what will do him in come november.

However the light in the tunnel could be CARSLEY and Shaw-Harrison is gone and he did fail both with coleman, boothroyd and last season-In hindsight he was a permanent problem maybe new ideas and motivation and Thorn, less stifled by an institution such as Harrison, could make us confident away from home?

L1 is better than most ppl think. of the last 3 seasons winners, 2 are now in the premier league.... and we are cov so you all know which way it´s gonna go, right?

Am I being too negative?

I would not call it negative. Crazy would be more appropriate. This is Thorn's first real test having managed with his hands tied previously. Plus we need stability and if we sack Thorn who in their right mind would take the job!

Macca · Jul 26, 2012

Not sure why anyone would be worried about thorns future. If he survived the chop last year why would it happen this year. Trust me as long as sisu are here, so will he

Godiva · Jul 26, 2012

Sky Blues said:
It was right to cut costs to avoid a Pompey scenario, but to cut them in an apparently haphazard manner with no thought as to the consequences for the team and in a way which endangered and ultimately destroyed our Championship status was wrong. I don't hear many people here objecting to the way things have gone this summer, which is cut the wage bill to keep our costs down to meet our diminished means but, crucially, also allowing the manager to raid the free transfer market to bring in some replacements.
Did you get out of bed the wrong side this morning Godiva?

I never went to bed

Thing is the club was out of money to pay the bills. So something had to be done - among that cashing in on Juke. I have a feeling that many believe sisu as a hedge fund grows money trees in their backyard and always have fresh cash supply ready if needed. Not many realise how difficult it is to raise capital to failing businesses like our club. So with nowhere to turn and an empty coffers it was either the deep cut or the fast track to liquidation.

Oh and don't blame relegation entirely on not being able to raise the wage costs by drafting in freebies or selling Juke to raise capital ... blame it on ALL the turmoil at the club, including the destructive sisu-out-campaign.
Just my oppinion (to quote OSB).

dongonzalos · Jul 26, 2012

700k for juke. We would have got that 4 months later. Which may have kept us up and saved 5 million.

500k spent on the academy this summer.
Bid put in for half the stadium.
Money provided to cove the contracts of potentially 9 players.
If we really wanted to have a crack at staying up. We could have kept juke for 4 months.

However if it took league 1 and council pressure to get sisu to see the light then I am glad we have been relegated.

If we had stayed up.by the skin of our teeth they would have done it to us this season instead

Astute · Jul 26, 2012

I see the blame game is still going on.

Can anyone remember when we owned our own ground? They were the days before we had to pay 1.2m rent and got all the money raised inside the ground. Also before we put a lot of money into the Ricoh and then ended up not owning it.

If you have a shorter memory you can blame other things though.

Godiva · Jul 26, 2012

dongonzalos said:
700k for juke. We would have got that 4 months later. Which may have kept us up and saved 5 million.

500k spent on the academy this summer.
Bid put in for half the stadium.
Money provided to cove the contracts of potentially 9 players.
If we really wanted to have a crack at staying up. We could have kept juke for 4 months.

However if it took league 1 and council pressure to get sisu to see the light then I am glad we have been relegated.

If we had stayed up.by the skin of our teeth they would have done it to us this season instead

Juke was out of contract, we wouldn't have received any money in the summer.
It is not given that we would have avoided relegation with Juke in the team - keeping him would be a gamble with money the club didn't have ... just like Portsmouth did.

We didn't spend 500K on the acadamy this summer - it's a myth. Maybe 100K or even 200K - look up OSB's thread about it in the finance section.

I don't know we have placed a bid for half the stadium - we might have placed a bit for Higgs shares, but that is not 'half the stadium'. Anyway that money will be a lot easier to raise as it is investing in improved revenue and reduced costs. It's a fairly simple and straight forward calculation for the bankers who are sisu.

Money for new players this window is secured through a wastly reduced wagebill.

Godiva · Jul 26, 2012

Astute said:
I see the blame game is still going on.

Can anyone remember when we owned our own ground? They were the days before we had to pay 1.2m rent and got all the money raised inside the ground. Also before we put a lot of money into the Ricoh and then ended up not owning it.

If you have a shorter memory you can blame other things though.

Yeah, those were happy days with even greater losses than present.

hitmanhearns · Jul 26, 2012

Juke wouldn´t have saved us - a manager capable of winning more than one away game in 23 would have.

And that same manager WILL NOT get us promoted... any realistic follower of the game will tell you that.

I admire your hope, but it´s just a matter of time until Carsley get´s the nod. The record speaks for itself. But it should have been done in may.

Macca · Jul 26, 2012

Don t you mean Carso?

Sick Boy · Jul 26, 2012

BinleySkyBlue said:
1st post here but a long time lurker

Thorn has had both arms amputated under SISU, never mind only being tied behind his back !

haters gonna hate

Are you American?

covcity4life · Jul 26, 2012

this is his last chance,its the decider

first stint:we won away vs burnley 2-1 did we not? we atatcked away from home,great to see

second:abysmal,no fight,always waiting for inevitable opposition goal

now: cant blame squad anymore,sisu have backed him as much as they financially can and he has a big squad which seems to have same quality as last year at least, and were in a lesser league no matter what pessemisits say, lets see if thorn can get back to winning games away,we need too.

Sick Boy · Jul 26, 2012

I thought it was only a insignificant minority who had no confidence in Thorn's ability as a manager?

aodea · Jul 26, 2012

Its a new season and its time to be optimistic. yes Thorn is not a top class manager but he is what we have. He is trying to bring in players and hopefully they will kick us on. Will they get us promoted remains to be seen. Our away form was appalling last year. However an early away win and the confidence comes back and players dont think about it anymore. It will lead to a differnt mentailty across the board as well. This will be a better season how much by remains to be seen. Andy Thorn deserves a chance it was not his fault he was appointed with little experince now he has more lets see how he does.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jul 26, 2012

Why, oh why, oh why?

The same discussion time, and time, and time, and time again.

Can't we please just wipe the slate clean and see how he does when he seems to have a more level playing field?

DazzleTommyDazzle · Jul 26, 2012

Godiva said:
Juke was out of contract, we wouldn't have received any money in the summer.
It is not given that we would have avoided relegation with Juke in the team - keeping him would be a gamble with money the club didn't have ... just like Portsmouth did.

Juke had 18 months left on his contract when we sold him.

I agree that it is not given that we would have avoided relegation with Juke in the team, but then very few things in life are "given" - death and taxes perhaps...

However, I believe that our chances of avoiding relegation would have been much higher with Juke - and so, our chances of avoiding the loss of £3m-£4m revenue would have been much higher.

Perhaps we would have got less money for him in the summer, but then that's not "given". A good finish to the season for him (on top of the goals he'd already got in a struggling team) might have increased his value.

To equate keeping Juke for an extra 4 months, to running the club like Portsmouth (Bel Haim on £36k per week, Kitson on £20k per week etc etc) is a little disingenuous perhaps.

Grendel · Jul 26, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Why, oh why, oh why?

The same discussion time, and time, and time, and time again.

Can't we please just wipe the slate clean and see how he does when he seems to have a more level playing field?

Shall I offer my contribution to this particular debate?

Macca · Jul 26, 2012

To be fair it's better than the other piffle being talked about

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jul 26, 2012

Grendel said:
Shall I offer my contribution to this particular debate?

I think it's well published, as it was quite concisely declared the first 764 times we discussed this same point. Thanks nevertheless

Macca · Jul 26, 2012

Alternatively it's guessing the name of the trialist, guessing the formation or licking the arses of ex players

Houdi · Jul 26, 2012

hitmanhearns said:
Naaah the hate dogma doesn´t cut it, Thorn is not being judged by his results but somehow by excuses of economical restraints which is the reality and daily life for almost all managers below the Prem. I think his eye for players have been very important for the last 4 seasons but his managerial skills are proven to be subpar, arms tied or not. He wants to play the ball and that´s great but being realistic we need ca 29 wins to get automatic promotion and it Ain´t gonna happen under Thorn. To get a playoff place maximum number of defeats should be no more than 10.

We are always hyping in pre season, I am too, it´s natural, reality is very different though-the top clubs in L1 are more or less on the same level as the top clubs in the championship this has been proven in the last 4 seasons, and that doesn´t bode well for Thorn or any other relegated club.

He will go in november, Carsley will come in and we will take it from there...realize this is gonna take a couple of years-nutin wrong with that.

The biggest problem this club has had for the last 20 yrs is the ongoing inability to recognize the importance of the managerial post. I assure you Lambert or Rodgers would have been sniffing at promotion rather than relegation with the same squads Thorn, Boothroyd and Coleman had. Lambert took the same squad that got relegated and beaten 1-7 at home to colchester in L1 to the Premier League. That´s the impact of finding the right manager and that´s what this club should be concentrating on and the good news is it is very achievable, but you have to recognize it first.

Appointing the club scout is not recognizing it.

So you can assure us that if only Lambert or Rodgers had been in charge we would have been in the promotion mix,so how exactly are you going to assure us of that.Or that you sayThorn WILL be gone in November as if it's a proven fact or certainty.However I think you will find these are just your opinions,valid but still just opinions.By the way isn't Reading current manager an ex scout,or certainly some one promoted from within,and it doesn't seem to worked out to badly for them.In my opinion too many people dress their opinions up as though they are established facts.Trouble is we all like to thinks that our opinions are the most valid.:thinking about:

skyblueman · Jul 26, 2012

Wise up Thorn is here for the entire season - no way he will go anywhere before then IMO :

He will be relatively cheap
He will have a contract which will need to be paid up if he is sacked
He is assembling a new team of players he is choosing
Nobody half decent would want the job - even if they did the salary is likely to be much higher
New Manager would want to bring in his own players - cost loads more money and leave the ones he doesn't want on the wage bill

If this season doesn't go well for us - yes probably he will be shown the door but I think that would be the least of our problems

SkyBlueBlood2 · Jul 26, 2012

Good thread this one! I agree with some of hitmanhearns points! If we dont get off to a good start and aren't in the top six come Christmas, fans will start to turn on Thorn and he'll probably get the boot! They won't cough up to bring anyone in so the cheapest option for a replacement is Carsley and/or Shaw!

Diehard Si · Jul 26, 2012

Well he's here and he's staying so this can go one of 2 ways..

City fans draw a line in the sand, get behind the team and the manager and help the team push for promotion.

City fans bicker and argue over Thorn and don't get behind him or the team.

We've had a rough patch, lessons at least appear to have been learnt... but this is new season and can be clean slate for everyone... SISU, Thorn, Cody, Bell, Baker

blueflint · Jul 26, 2012

Sky Blues said:
It was right to cut costs to avoid a Pompey scenario, but to cut them in an apparently haphazard manner with no thought as to the consequences for the team and in a way which endangered and ultimately destroyed our Championship status was wrong. I don't hear many people here objecting to the way things have gone this summer, which is cut the wage bill to keep our costs down to meet our diminished means but, crucially, also allowing the manager to raid the free transfer market to bring in some replacements.
Did you get out of bed the wrong side this morning Godiva?

i agree we did cut costs in the wrong way last year this year seems better lets hope

Godiva · Jul 26, 2012

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
Juke had 18 months left on his contract when we sold him.

I agree that it is not given that we would have avoided relegation with Juke in the team, but then very few things in life are "given" - death and taxes perhaps...

However, I believe that our chances of avoiding relegation would have been much higher with Juke - and so, our chances of avoiding the loss of £3m-£4m revenue would have been much higher.

Perhaps we would have got less money for him in the summer, but then that's not "given". A good finish to the season for him (on top of the goals he'd already got in a struggling team) might have increased his value.

To equate keeping Juke for an extra 4 months, to running the club like Portsmouth (Bel Haim on £36k per week, Kitson on £20k per week etc etc) is a little disingenuous perhaps.

Ok, I stand corrected on the contract length, but that doesn't change the fact that the club was out of money and bills had to be paid.
Betting on avoiding relegation with Juke in the team could mean no money to pay the players wages. And it that scenario the prospect of losing £4m in turnover next season doesn't come into consideration. Neither does the players potential future value.

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