Back to being the biggest club in Coventry? (38 Viewers)

Nick · Jan 12, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
If you're going to quote me at least have the decency to quote the point in it's entirety, did you stop reading after that one line or something? What I said in full was "The truth is that it is possibly the only true 365day a year sports stadium in the country. Yes ticket revenue will be welcome I'm sure but they have plenty of other revenue streams to be capitalized on to make it successful."

Like I said, if you're unaware (which apparently you are) what other revenue is at the Ricoh that's down to you, you should try getting up there and having a look around. It's quite impressive how much is there and what it has to offer.

So it isn't the only 365 day a year sports stadium then? It isn't the truth?

I wasn't questioning ticket revenue, I was questioning you saying it was the the only "true" 365 day a year sports stadium.

You then said name those 2 stadiums, I named 2 I had physically seen with hotels and stuff so didn't need to Google. So I am sure there are plenty more. Isn't Rihanna also doing the Stadium of light, do they have hotel and conference facitilies?

I've just got back from there...funnily enough.

Edit: Not just football / rugby grounds, The Emirates Old Trafford has a fair bit there too.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 12, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
He could. If you throw enough shit something is going to stick sooner than later

Well he was right after all about quite a lot about the arena's finances, around the time the club moved out...

Moff · Jan 12, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
Although I agree with wanting to see them fail I just can't see it. Wasps home match ticket sales isn't the only source of revenue at the Ricoh. The truth is that it is possibly the only true 365day a year sports stadium in the country. Yes ticket revenue will be welcome I'm sure but they have plenty of other revenue streams to be capitalized on to make it successful. I can't help but feel anyone who thinks it's all about bums on seats at wasps home games are setting themselves up to be disappointed.

Lets not forget these income streams also have to clear the debt of the club in purchasing the leasehold/pay Richardson back, cover the interest payments on bonds, and ensure the bonds will be paid eventually, as well as covering Wasps running costs.

I think from their initial bravado that they have misjudged the level of support in Coventry, and crowds are far lower than they projected. Whilst I have no concrete proof, their poor perforamce on the pitch, lack of marquee signings, and general average squad leads me to suspect that wasps the worlds richest rugby club are a long long way from that misguided boast.

skybluetony176 · Jan 13, 2016

Nick said:
So it isn't the only 365 day a year sports stadium then? It isn't the truth?

I wasn't questioning ticket revenue, I was questioning you saying it was the the only "true" 365 day a year sports stadium.

You then said name those 2 stadiums, I named 2 I had physically seen with hotels and stuff so didn't need to Google. So I am sure there are plenty more. Isn't Rihanna also doing the Stadium of light, do they have hotel and conference facitilies?

I've just got back from there...funnily enough.

Edit: Not just football / rugby grounds, The Emirates Old Trafford has a fair bit there too.

Oh well, I did say possibly. Let's say then that it's a true 365 day a year when compared to your average stadium.

My original point still stands though. Anyone who thinks that wasps attendance figures are the deal breaker is possibly going to be disappointed as they can optimise many other income streams and aren't reliant solely on bums on seats for Wasps home games.

skybluetony176 · Jan 13, 2016

Deleted member 5849 said:
Well he was right after all about quite a lot about the arena's finances, around the time the club moved out...

Probably because he knew what everyone else in the world knew. I doubt it was some TF insight and even if it was stuff that no one outside of ACL knew for sure I'd have trouble believing it was down to TF himself, he'd have been reading from a provided script.

skybluetony176 · Jan 13, 2016

Moff said:
Lets not forget these income streams also have to clear the debt of the club in purchasing the leasehold/pay Richardson back, cover the interest payments on bonds, and ensure the bonds will be paid eventually, as well as covering Wasps running costs.

I think from their initial bravado that they have misjudged the level of support in Coventry, and crowds are far lower than they projected. Whilst I have no concrete proof, their poor perforamce on the pitch, lack of marquee signings, and general average squad leads me to suspect that wasps the worlds richest rugby club are a long long way from that misguided boast.

Wasn't alot of that debt taken care of with the bonds?

I don't know what their expectations were of average gates after they moved. Personally I think there was always going to be a big initial interest and it would then drop off and again personally both the initial figures and the drop off are/were both bigger than I ever thought they'd be. I said all along that the importance of the gate is possibly based on home games against Leicester and Northampton. If them two games are in the low teens I'd imagine they'd be disappointed and possibly the same for European games. What was their average attendances before they moved? How does it compare to now?

Moff · Jan 13, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
What was their average attendances before they moved? How does it compare to now?

It was lower at Wycombe, but cannott be compared at the moment as we just dont know how many tickets are actually being paid for. It must be a higher break even figure at the Ricoh though.

chiefdave · Jan 13, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
In which case if you truly believe what you've just posted you must be delighted that we didn't buy it. Given that we're a football club that's been losing millions for years and has tens of millions historical debt.

Surely using your logic it would have been a recipe for disaster.

Well that depends what your options are. I would have been happy enough paying a reasonable rent to ACL with access to the revenues we need as the primary occupier with our branding in place. Less happy on a similar deal playing on a pitch churned up by rugby matches surrounded by Wasps branding. But that is more of an emoitonal point of view than a business choice.

As I have said many times I would like to see the business case for all available options and then we can work towards the one that gives us the best future and greatest chance of success.

There must be something to owning your own stadium as it seems the preferred option of most clubs and the indpendent experts the local media bring out also seem to view it as the best option.

Still the point was a rugby club losing millions every year taking over a, at best break even, stadium management company and then loading it with debt does not strike me as an obvious route to a bright financial future. I'm sure if SISU had purchased ACL and then loaded it with debt to pay themselves back we wouldn't be applauding them as great business people.

chiefdave · Jan 13, 2016

Moff said:
It was lower at Wycombe, but cannott be compared at the moment as we just dont know how many tickets are actually being paid for. It must be a higher break even figure at the Ricoh though.

The tickets they do actually sell are cheaper than at Wycombe so you could have a bigger (paying) crowd but lower ticket revenues.

skybluetony176 · Jan 13, 2016

chiefdave said:
Well that depends what your options are. I would have been happy enough paying a reasonable rent to ACL with access to the revenues we need as the primary occupier with our branding in place. Less happy on a similar deal playing on a pitch churned up by rugby matches surrounded by Wasps branding. But that is more of an emoitonal point of view than a business choice.

As I have said many times I would like to see the business case for all available options and then we can work towards the one that gives us the best future and greatest chance of success.

There must be something to owning your own stadium as it seems the preferred option of most clubs and the indpendent experts the local media bring out also seem to view it as the best option.

Still the point was a rugby cluby losing millions every year taking over a, at best break even, stadium management company and then loading it with debt does not strike me as an obvious route to a bright financial future. I'm sure if SISU had purchased ACL and then loaded it with debt to pay themselves back we wouldn't be applauding them as great business people.

Was that a yes or a no?

Grendel · Jan 13, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
Oh well, I did say possibly. Let's say then that it's a true 365 day a year when compared to your average stadium.

My original point still stands though. Anyone who thinks that wasps attendance figures are the deal breaker is possibly going to be disappointed as they can optimise many other income streams and aren't reliant solely on bums on seats for Wasps home games.

Bit like ACL as ran by the council??

skybluetony176 · Jan 13, 2016

Grendel said:
Bit like ACL as ran by the council??

Not sure that the council ever ran ACL but it must be pretty clear even to you that ACL have upped their game somewhat since Wasps have taken over. Seems to me wether you like it or not more is happening at the Ricoh than ever and that can only take the pressure off any requirements for paying customers at wasps games.

I don't think anyone will know what the real picture is until accounts are lodged that show a full operating year at the Ricoh but wasps aside the Ricoh is buzzing (No pun intended) and that can only bode well for their fortunes. Sadly.

Grendel · Jan 13, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
Not sure that the council ever ran ACL but it must be pretty clear even to you that ACL have upped their game somewhat since Wasps have taken over. Seems to me wether you like it or not more is happening at the Ricoh than ever and that can only take the pressure off any requirements for paying customers at wasps games.

I don't think anyone will know what the real picture is until accounts are lodged that show a full operating year at the Ricoh but wasps aside the Ricoh is buzzing (No pun intended) and that can only bode well for their fortunes. Sadly.

Upped their game? Interesting.

Care to give examples of incremental concerts and events say compared to 2008 and the profit margins.

skybluetony176 · Jan 13, 2016

Grendel said:
Upped their game? Interesting.

Care to give examples of incremental concerts and events say compared to 2008 and the profit margins.

2008? That's very specific. It's almost as if it's the only year that will prove whatever "point" you're trying to make. Why don't you compare what's been confirmed for this year with something more current and up to date? Say 2014 or 2015.

Grendel · Jan 13, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
2008? That's very specific. It's almost as if it's the only year that will prove whatever "point" you're trying to make. Why don't you compare what's been confirmed for this year with something more current and up to date? Say 2014 or 2015.

If you take away the £1.4 million rent what actual different is there on the EBIT in 2014 to 2008?

skybluetony176 · Jan 13, 2016

Grendel said:
If you take away the £1.4 million rent what actual different is there on the EBIT in 2014 to 2008?

You tell me. You've clearly been and looked at the figures so stop playing silly buggers and make your point if you do indeed have one.

Grendel · Jan 13, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
You tell me. You've clearly been and looked at the figures so stop playing silly buggers and make your point if you do indeed have one.

Well you said they have upped their game. I am just asking in what ways.

I think they've done fuck all different and any perceived changes are through their very clever manipulation of the local media. Now that they excel at.

They are the ultimate Walter Mitty. It's very clever. The biggest club in Europe that seem to be like a West Brom in terms of standing.

Also I'd like to understand about the Hotel which you seem very fond of I'm comparing revenues. Hilton own it don't they? Yet you seem to say this makes then a real 365 day a year revenue stadium. To make such a statement I assume you know the earnings ACL get from this. As if you didn't you wouldn't make the statement. I naively assumed ACL just get a lease rent for it. What do they get?

SkyBlueZack · Jan 14, 2016

As for upping their game since wasps arrived. Not explicitly true. When we moved to Northampton ACL began to maximise other income streams so not to be so reliant on the football club. Which may I add should have been the plan from the outset. Also on that note SISU wanted to bring in AEG? A specialist events company. Would they not have been better at maximising income? But keep banging the wasps drum and questioning why your compared to italia.

skybluetony176 · Jan 14, 2016

SkyBlueZack said:
As for upping their game since wasps arrived. Not explicitly true. When we moved to Northampton ACL began to maximise other income streams so not to be so reliant on the football club. Which may I add should have been the plan from the outset. Also on that note SISU wanted to bring in AEG? A specialist events company. Would they not have been better at maximising income? But keep banging the wasps drum and questioning why your compared to italia.

So the announcement of a big concert and securing a two day festival isn't moving forward? ACL when we were at Northampton upping their game consisted of Leicester reserve games IIRC. Not banging any drum just pointing out what should be obvious to anyone. SISU were very specific with AEG. Have you ever wondered why?

fernandopartridge · Jan 14, 2016

Moff said:
Lets not forget these income streams also have to clear the debt of the club in purchasing the leasehold/pay Richardson back, cover the interest payments on bonds, and ensure the bonds will be paid eventually, as well as covering Wasps running costs.

I think from their initial bravado that they have misjudged the level of support in Coventry, and crowds are far lower than they projected. Whilst I have no concrete proof, their poor perforamce on the pitch, lack of marquee signings, and general average squad leads me to suspect that wasps the worlds richest rugby club are a long long way from that misguided boast.

MMM, remember him? The head of the 6th form debating society. He reckoned they'd modelled the budget on pretty low crowds. However, I am not sure if they initially intended on issuing bonds to pay back the council loan or not. If they didn't then it's a hell of a debt to pay.

fernandopartridge · Jan 14, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
So the announcement of a big concert and securing a two day festival isn't moving forward? ACL when we were at Northampton upping their game consisted of Leicester reserve games IIRC. Not banging any drum just pointing out what should be obvious to anyone. SISU were very specific with AEG. Have you ever wondered why?

The Ricoh staged big concerts a few years ago and Olympic events. The company running it still struggled to turn a profit, if you took the club's rent away they didn't make any.

Now, are the events for the coming year on the same level as Take That or Oasis? Maybe, it isn't really showing they've upped their game but their marketing and PR is better.

Nick · Jan 14, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
So the announcement of a big concert and securing a two day festival isn't moving forward?

Have they never had big concerts or festivals there before Wasps?

skybluetony176 · Jan 14, 2016

Nick said:
Have they never had big concerts or festivals there before Wasps?

Have I said they didn't? But you compare it to the previous couple of years there's a real improvement. People can be in denial if they want but it doesn't change the fact that the the bowl for the first time in years has big music events for the first time in years. How significant that will be to there accounts? Who knows. It can't be harming them though.

SkyBlueZack · Jan 14, 2016

You certainly have a skewed way of looking at things. Have you seen the likely acts for mtv crashes? Not in the same league as previous concerts. Rihanna granted is a big name but her star is not what it was. Has she sold out at the ricoh? As mentioned the Olympics, does it get any bigger? As mentioned still didn't turn a profit without the football clubs extortionate rent. What should be obvious is that in essence what we are seeing isn't any bigger greater or more amazing than what's gone before. In fact its worse. Your argument about the last couple of years being quiet is solely to fit your drum banging.

skybluetony176 · Jan 14, 2016

SkyBlueZack said:
You certainly have a skewed way of looking at things. Have you seen the likely acts for mtv crashes? Not in the same league as previous concerts. Rihanna granted is a big name but her star is not what it was. Has she sold out at the ricoh? As mentioned the Olympics, does it get any bigger? As mentioned still didn't turn a profit without the football clubs extortionate rent. What should be obvious is that in essence what we are seeing isn't any bigger greater or more amazing than what's gone before. In fact its worse. Your argument about the last couple of years being quiet is solely to fit your drum banging.

I'm in my mid forties and my favourite types of music are thrash metal and punk. To be honest the MTV festival could have the six biggest selling acts of the last five years and I'd probably still never heard of them.

All I do know is that MTV is a leading music channel, they've been running these two day festivals for a while and 60k people are expected to go over the two days. That's not a dog and duck type gig. That's fairly major.

Nick · Jan 14, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
Have I said they didn't? But you compare it to the previous couple of years there's a real improvement. People can be in denial if they want but it doesn't change the fact that the the bowl for the first time in years has big music events for the first time in years. How significant that will be to there accounts? Who knows. It can't be harming them though.

Surely improving on before would be topping it or having 2 or 3 of them a year though? It's like when the telegraph were dubbing a rugby match as the biggest sporting event at the Ricoh.

Grendel · Jan 14, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
I'm in my mid forties and my favourite types of music are thrash metal and punk. To be honest the MTV festival could have the six biggest selling acts of the last five years and I'd probably still never heard of them.

All I do know is that MTV is a leading music channel, they've been running these two day festivals for a while and 60k people are expected to go over the two days. That's not a dog and duck type gig. That's fairly major.

So how much money do ACL get for hosting it then? Or do they actually have to pay to host it?

skybluetony176 · Jan 14, 2016

Nick said:
Surely improving on before would be topping it or having 2 or 3 of them a year though? It's like when the telegraph were dubbing a rugby match as the biggest sporting event at the Ricoh.

Well they have 2 and it's only January, still a chance to get another act in. Is the gaming festival on again? Also didn't I read that the MTV festival is secured for three years so they have at least one already booked for the next two years if I read that correctly.

skybluetony176 · Jan 14, 2016

Grendel said:
So how much money do ACL get for hosting it then? Or do they actually have to pay to host it?

You tell me. You clearly know.

chiefdave · Jan 14, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
Is the gaming festival on again?

Nope, they lost that to the NEC.

SkyBlueZack · Jan 14, 2016

It's subsidised tickets so someone somewhere is paying. We'll gloss over that tho.

chiefdave · Jan 14, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
You tell me. You clearly know.

Generally a lot less than you would think. Don't know specifically for the Ricoh but I know of similar capacity venues that you can hire for less than £50K a day.

Of course if you have someone like Oasis on you sell a ton of booze and make money that way. Not so much with this kind of thing as the majority of the crowd will be under age, that's why there's a lot less competition to stage events like this.

skybluetony176 · Jan 14, 2016

SkyBlueZack said:
It's subsidised tickets so someone somewhere is paying. We'll gloss over that tho.

Who's subsidising them?

chiefdave · Jan 14, 2016

SkyBlueZack said:
It's subsidised tickets so someone somewhere is paying. We'll gloss over that tho.

Looked into this event a bit and it sounds like its a paid event. ie MTV are charging someone, presumably the Ricoh or the Council, a fixed fee to put the event on.

SkyBlueZack · Jan 14, 2016

I now await the it raises the profile of the City and the Ricoh argument. It makes business sense. It's not all about money etc. Blah blah blah

Back to being the biggest club in Coventry? (38 Viewers)

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