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Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
So;

We've a good team
We dominate possession
A win is just around the corner
We have a gem of a manager who plays great football
We have a manager whose hands are tied
We have a great midfielder from some place I can't pronounce whose head and shoulders above everyone else
It's all Timmy's fault

Fuck - I've been in a coma for 5 years - nothings changed.

Also the outcome will be the same.
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
Some idiot keeps saying that Bigi is shit and non league standard. So hadn't you better add that to your list?
 
Wyken Sky Blue

Wyken Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
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Irish Sky Blue

Irish Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
So;

We've a good team
We dominate possession
A win is just around the corner
We have a gem of a manager who plays great football
We have a manager whose hands are tied
We have a great midfielder from some place I can't pronounce whose head and shoulders above everyone else
It's all Timmy's fault

Fuck - I've been in a coma for 5 years - nothings changed.

Also the outcome will be the same.
Click to expand...

Outcome doesn't have to be the same if this time we stick with the manager and give him time to turn it around. Just like Bigi seems to have done so will Mowbray if he is allowed.
 
trevelfarandwide

trevelfarandwide

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
So;

We've a good team
We dominate possession
A win is just around the corner
We have a gem of a manager who plays great football
We have a manager whose hands are tied
We have a great midfielder from some place I can't pronounce whose head and shoulders above everyone else
It's all Timmy's fault

Fuck - I've been in a coma for 5 years - nothings changed.

Also the outcome will be the same.
Click to expand...

Yep, and expect the same for the next 5 years. That's not pessimism, it's realism. All the positivity in the world can alter the dire, abysmal outlook for this club.

I hope I'm wrong, and I will willingly hold my hands up if this season is (somehow) turned into a 'positive'.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
It's CCC's, The CT's, Higgs, Wasps, previous managers, previous owners, previous directors fault we all know that. Poor old SISU are just innocent bystanders stuck in the middle of an elaborate conspiracy theory that it's all their fault and their responsibility to sort it out while all around them are secretly conspiring to overthrow them.


Glad we got that sorted.
 
robbiekeane

robbiekeane

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
It's CCC's, The CT's, Higgs, Wasps, previous managers, previous owners, previous directors fault we all know that. Poor old SISU are just innocent bystanders stuck in the middle of an elaborate conspiracy theory that it's all their fault and their responsibility to sort it out while all around them are secretly conspiring to overthrow them.


Glad we got that sorted.
Click to expand...
I know you're trying to be clever but do you realise how stupid you actually sound? Straw man argument is all you have. No one has said anything of the sort, but God forbid people take a pragmatic view on the situation that isn't an automatic default to "its all sisus fault"... That's if we're losing. If we're winning its nothing to do with them ;)
 
peeler

peeler

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
It's CCC's, The CT's, Higgs, Wasps, previous managers, previous owners, previous directors fault we all know that. Poor old SISU are just innocent bystanders stuck in the middle of an elaborate conspiracy theory that it's all their fault and their responsibility to sort it out while all around them are secretly conspiring to overthrow them.


Glad we got that sorted.
Click to expand...

It about sums up what some of the more vocal twits on here think, their heads are stuck firmly in the sand
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
Really? It was sold for under £6 million - what are you on about? And that with a 200 year lease extension!!!
Click to expand...
And how much money was loaned against it?

So you say that Bigi is shit and the arena worthless and a white elephant yet you can't bring yourself to admit that you might be wrong. You just continue to make the same comments that just about everyone knows to be wrong. Now you want us to believe that Bigi will go from our best player presently to non league quality in two years :shifty:
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Astute said:
And how much money was loaned against it?

So you say that Bigi is shit and the arena worthless and a white elephant yet you can't bring yourself to admit that you might be wrong. You just continue to make the same comments that just about everyone knows to be wrong. Now you want us to believe that Bigi will go from our best player presently to non league quality in two years :shifty:
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It doesn't matter how much was loaned against it - it was sold for under £6 million - that was the valuation.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
Well it was worthless wasn't it?
Click to expand...

So is JR2 is even more pointless than JR1 then?

I never thought it was worthless unlike you so I don't know why you're asking a question you already know the answer to. We'll probably find out in 2 - 3 posts time when you finally get to the point you want to make but want to play silly games in the meantime.
 
Nick

Nick

Administrator
Didn't everybody say that the Higgs 50% was the worthless bit rather than 100% and 250 years? That kind of changes things. (unless I missed people saying 250 years and 100% was worthless, I apologise in advance if so).
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
I'm no maths expert but £6m seems closer to £0 than it does to £60m.
Click to expand...

I would never say otherwise. I'm no finance expert but if someone was telling me that something was worthless I wouldn't be disappointed at getting £6M for it. I certainly wouldn't be expecting those who told me it was worthless to then be telling me that I had undersold it at £6M. Would you?
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Nick said:
Didn't everybody say that the Higgs 50% was the worthless bit rather than 100% and 250 years? That kind of changes things. (unless I missed people saying 250 years and 100% was worthless, I apologise in advance if so).
Click to expand...

ACL, unlike the loan wasn't sold with a 250 year lease. If the loan is apparently irrelevant to the sale price the length of the current lease must be even less relevant. Given that it didn't exist at the time of the sale.
 
Nick

Nick

Administrator
skybluetony176 said:
ACL, unlike the loan wasn't sold with a 250 year lease. If the loan is apparently irrelevant to the sale price the length of the current lease must be even less relevant. Given that it didn't exist at the time of the sale.
Click to expand...

What didn't exist at the time of the sale?

Why wouldn't the % of a company be relevant? ie 50% or 100%?
 
chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
I would never say otherwise. I'm no finance expert but if someone was telling me that something was worthless I wouldn't be disappointed at getting £6M for it. I certainly wouldn't be expecting those who told me it was worthless to then be telling me that I had undersold it at £6M. Would you?
Click to expand...
Various ways of looking at it I guess.

You could compare the return against the initial investment. CCC put in around £10 and got around a quarter of that back.

Or compare the cost of the initial 50 year lease, think it was around £20m, with the 200 year extension which they sold for £1m.

Maybe compare the amount they received against the valuation placed on it a few weeks later, certainly doesn't look like a good deal then.

Same if you compare it against the sort of figures they were throwing at the club.

Or even against the value a future CCFC owner may have paid. I wouldn't have been surprised to see a future owner pay £20m plus.

On the other hand if you look at it as a debt laden loss making business then its not a bad deal. Of course if the new owner then very easily turns it into a profit making business it raises questions over how it was being run previously.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Yes the point is that the value on the extra lease is huge. It effectively is an acknowledgment the business on it's existing lease structure was totally worthless.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
Yes the point is that the value on the extra lease is huge. It effectively is an acknowledgment the business on it's existing lease structure was totally worthless.
Click to expand...

Yet they still paid £6M for it. I'm surprised that you of all people are praising the council but here we are. I still don't think it was worthless myself but what do I know. I also don't think the council should be praised for getting £6M for it, it was undersold IMO but then again my position has never changed on that. We should have just bought it at the formula price and be done with it because securing the future of CCFC has always been priceless in my book. Lease's can always be extended, the length of the lease was never an issue for me. No duality from me on this one. My position hasn't changed.
 
Nick

Nick

Administrator
skybluetony176 said:
Yet they still paid £6M for it. I'm surprised that you of all people are praising the council but here we are. I still don't think it was worthless myself but what do I know. I also don't think the council should be praised for getting £6M for it, it was undersold IMO but then again my position has never changed on that. We should have just bought it at the formula price and be done with it because securing the future of CCFC has always been priceless in my book. Lease's can always be extended, the length of the lease was never an issue for me. No duality from me on this one. My position hasn't changed.
Click to expand...

But they didn't pay £6m for what he was saying was worthless did they?
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Nick said:
I thought he was saying that with the old lease length and 50% was worthless? Compared to the new lease length and 100%?

It is still early though!
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Wasps purchased ACL without ACL owning a 250 year lease and as Dave points out was loss making and in debt. That's what Grendull (and others) was calling a worthless ugly concrete white elephant that no one would be interested in and SISU are the only show in town during and quite possibly before we were in Northampton and continued to say this right up until the time (and shooting anyone like myself who had an apposing view on ACL and The Ricoh down the whole time) that it became apparent that SISU weren't the only show in town (again, something myself and others were repeatedly mocked for suggesting) and not only that were willing to hand over money for said worthless white elephant. At which point it suddenly had worth, CCC had ripped off the taxpayer and let's all champion JR2 became the mantra. Duality on a grand scale. Possibly the biggest juxtaposition of opinion ever demonstrated on this site.

Don't get me wrong. Everyone is entitled to change their mind, I don't have an issue with that. But when you're continually using both positions as "fact" simultaneously depending which way the wind is blowing and which argument you're trying to win you can't really take that person seriously can you?
 
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