Bottom 6 clubs: surely we are where we belong? (2 Viewers)

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Nov 30, 2011

Looking at significant names from our peers within the bottom 6; surely we are where we are due to having less experience and quality in key areas? Even before the signifcant players left close and early season we struggled, but now I don't think Pep Gaurdiola could do much about our plight:

Doncaster: Neil Sullivan, Richard Naylor, Brian Stock, Billy Sharp, James Hayter, Tommy Spurr, John Oster, Giles Barnes, El-Hadji Diouf, Marc-Antoine Fortune, Pascal Chimbonda, Habib Beye

Nottingham Forest: Lee Camp, Luke Chambers, Wes Morgan, George Boateng, Matt Derbyshire, Ishmael Miller, Lewis McGugan, Andy Reid, Jonathan Greening, Chris Cohen, David McGoldrick, Marcus Tudgay, Dexter Blackstock

Ipswich: Richard Wright, Grant Leadbitter, Carlos Edwards, Lee Bowyer, Jay Emmanuel-Thomas, Michael Chopra, David Stockdale, Jason Scotland, Keith Andrews, Nathan Ellington, Tommy Smith, Jimmy Bullard

Bristol City: David James, Liam Fontaine, Marvin Elliott, Neil Kilkenny, Jon Stead, Nicky Maynard, Jamal Campbell-Ryce, Albert Adomah, Nicky Hunt, Stephen Pearson

Portsmouth: Aaron Mokoena, Hermann Hreidarsson, Liam Lawrence, Hayden Mullins, Danny Webber, Luke Varney, Antti Niemi, Joe Mattock, Steve Finnan, Dave Kitson, Benjani Mwaruwari, Tal Ben-Haim, Nwankwo Kanu

:facepalm:

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 30, 2011

When it's laid out like that, no, we aren't even close to matching those sides for quality or experience. I really am amazed that many cannot grasp this. That Pompey squad is frightening, as is Forest's! The only one close to ours is Bristol City's, but they've still got a bit more than us with class like Maynard, Fontaine, Pearson and Elliott. Our only players of that calibre are Keogh and Lukas-and I'd take Maynard over Juke anyday.

OyJimmy · Nov 30, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
When it's laid out like that, no, we aren't even close to matching those sides for quality or experience. I really am amazed that many cannot grasp this. That Pompey squad is frightening, as is Forest's! The only one close to ours is Bristol City's, but they've still got a bit more than us with class like Maynard, Fontaine, Pearson and Elliott. Our only players of that calibre are Keogh and Lukas-and I'd take Maynard over Juke anyday.

I think people grasp this. But they just wonder if changing the manager might change results. At the end of the day we are almost loosing every week under Thorn. So how would chaning the manager make things worse?

LastGarrison · Nov 30, 2011

Maybe we could get Font and Size on loan in January at least then we'd be matching them then?

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Nov 30, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
When it's laid out like that, no, we aren't even close to matching those sides for quality or experience. I really am amazed that many cannot grasp this. That Pompey squad is frightening, as is Forest's! The only one close to ours is Bristol City's, but they've still got a bit more than us with class like Maynard, Fontaine, Pearson and Elliott. Our only players of that calibre are Keogh and Lukas-and I'd take Maynard over Juke anyday.

I wouldn't disagree with that Ipswich, Forest, Portsmouth's squad are better than ours by quite a bit.
I would argue the 4 teams above them we don't have significantly worse squads + Palace, I would say are squad is close to Watford, Derby, Millwall, Barnsely and Palace who are 12th.

I don't believe those 5 squads above are 8-13 points better than our squad.

Otis · Nov 30, 2011

We are a bottom 6 side. No doubt about it and no-one is arguing that point.

Are we a bottom 2 side though? That is where the question lies.

Portsmouth are a bottom 6 side at the moment. They have 7 points more than us.

Are we are a bottom 6 side? I would settle for 6th from bottom and 7 points clear of where the Sky Blues are now. Wouldn't you?

Knowledge · Nov 30, 2011

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Looking at significant names from our peers within the bottom 6; surely we are where we are due to having less experience and quality in key areas? Even before the signifcant players left close and early season we struggled, but now I don't think Pep Gaurdiola could do much about our plight:

Doncaster: Neil Sullivan, Richard Naylor, Brian Stock, Billy Sharp, James Hayter, Tommy Spurr, John Oster, Giles Barnes, El-Hadji Diouf, Marc-Antoine Fortune, Pascal Chimbonda, Habib Beye

Nottingham Forest: Lee Camp, Luke Chambers, Wes Morgan, George Boateng, Matt Derbyshire, Ishmael Miller, Lewis McGugan, Andy Reid, Jonathan Greening, Chris Cohen, David McGoldrick, Marcus Tudgay, Dexter Blackstock

Ipswich: Richard Wright, Grant Leadbitter, Carlos Edwards, Lee Bowyer, Jay Emmanuel-Thomas, Michael Chopra, David Stockdale, Jason Scotland, Keith Andrews, Nathan Ellington, Tommy Smith, Jimmy Bullard

Bristol City: David James, Liam Fontaine, Marvin Elliott, Neil Kilkenny, Jon Stead, Nicky Maynard, Jamal Campbell-Ryce, Albert Adomah, Nicky Hunt, Stephen Pearson

Portsmouth: Aaron Mokoena, Hermann Hreidarsson, Liam Lawrence, Hayden Mullins, Danny Webber, Luke Varney, Antti Niemi, Joe Mattock, Steve Finnan, Dave Kitson, Benjani Mwaruwari, Tal Ben-Haim, Nwankwo Kanu

:facepalm:

Now repeat the exercise with Peterboro, Derby, Palace, Barnsley, Watford, Millwall and Burnley.

oldskyblue58 · Nov 30, 2011

and yet with all that "quality" and "experience" they are all in the bottom six...... and some with very great financial problems to confront. Go figure huh

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Nov 30, 2011

Otis said:
We are a bottom 6 side. No doubt about it and no-one is arguing that point.

Are we a bottom 2 side though? That is where the question lies.

Portsmouth are a bottom 6 side at the moment. They have 7 points more than us.

Are we are a bottom 6 side? I would settle for 6th from bottom and 7 points clear of where the Sky Blues are now. Wouldn't you?

Their squad looks 7 pooints better, Otis....

Otis · Nov 30, 2011

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Their squad looks 7 pooints better, Otis....

Yes it does. Agree. Wasn't my point though. I was indeed expecting a relegation fight this season. What I wasn't expecting though was just 2 wins after 19 games and 7 points adrift. Thought we would be bottom 6 but would have believed we would put up a bit more fight than I have witnessed this season. For me there has been just one single game where we have fought, battled, harried and chased and that was West Ham at home.

Coincidentally, that was by far our best performance of the season.

This is my problem with Andy Thorn.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Nov 30, 2011

I am not apologising for Thorn, young Otis; but I think to automatically deduce that we have a God-given right to be anywhere other than where we are is to think that we can over-achieve and cheat the odds. Some managers can do this. Most can't. How do we know that we can find that rare breed. Because we haven't despite many attempts since relegation

Otis · Nov 30, 2011

True. Have said on other threads, if anything I would like to see help brought in for him as much as anything. Or promote Carsley to Assistant Manager to give him some help. Basically anything is worth a try.

TheHellion · Nov 30, 2011

Otis said:
True. Have said on other threads, if anything I would like to see help brought in for him as much as anything. Or promote Carsley to Assistant Manager to give him some help. Basically anything is worth a try.

This is something I think I'd like to see. I've said I think Thorn has potential, he just needs some guidance from a more experienced head.

sky blue john · Nov 30, 2011

Whats going on here is knee jerk reactions and a frenzy of sack the manager !!!!!!!!
The teams around us with the better squads maybe they should be looking at their managers at least when Thorn had a bit of a team end of last year he was able to get results !!!!!!
So the managers of the other teams around us does that make them better than Thorn because they have experiance ?

covcity4life · Nov 30, 2011

yeh the fact that we havnt carried the WHU performance into cardiff and brighton must come down to the manager.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Nov 30, 2011

I wouldn't disagree with that Ipswich, Forest, Portsmouth's squad are better than ours by quite a bit.
I would argue the 4 teams above them we don't have significantly worse squads + Palace, I would say are squad is close to Watford, Derby, Millwall, Barnsely and Palace who are 12th.

I don't believe those 5 squads above are 8-13 points better than our squad.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like a Thorn supporter to answer this. ^

Do you believe those squads should be 8-13 points better off than us, if you don't think they should be that far ahead of us then surely Thorn has to take blame?

Otis · Nov 30, 2011

Hate to keep banging on about this, but knowing we have an inferior squad means the only way we can compete on an equal footing is by fighting and battling and chasing for every ball, chasing down space, showing grit, determination and spirit.

We know we don't have a good squad, we know we are a bottom 6 side. We need to show some bleedin spirit and guts and bottle now and play at least as if we have a fighting chance of staying up. Playing pretty possession football just ain't going to swing it for us trust me.

It's either do all of the above or throw the towel in now and lay down our swords and go out with a whimper. We should play like we did, or endeavour to play like we did against West Ham every single game. We are very weak and lily-livered at the moment and no team sees us as a threat.

Disorganised1 · Nov 30, 2011

Football is a team game - until we play as a team for 90 minutes we will continue to lose. Mental strength can be developed, but I wonder how many of our team have it ?

Otis · Nov 30, 2011

Agree on that point for sure. You can teach the team to close down space though and chase and harry. Doesn't matter how good or poor they are. You can deny the opposition space. Who was the better footballer out of Glen Hoddle and Lloyd McGrath? You can close down space and stop teams from playing.

It's not rocket science. We are too soft and powder puff. That's killing us.

sky blue john · Nov 30, 2011

Otis said:
Agree on that point for sure. You can teach the team to close down space though and chase and harry. Doesn't matter how good or poor they are. You can deny the opposition space. Who was the better footballer out of Glen Hoddle and Lloyd McGrath? You can close down space and stop teams from playing.

It's not rocket science. We are too soft and powder puff. That's killing us.

Otis answer one question in order who are our best five players for battling and harrying the opposition and in order who do you think our worst five are ?

Otis · Nov 30, 2011

Thing is John, the whole 10 outfield players harried against West Ham. It's why we played so well.

Ability to harry as a rule? Bigi, Juke, Baker, Thomas, Keogh, Christie, McShuffty (when he puts his mind to it), Clarke, Deegan.

Ones who cannot harry? Clingan, Platt, Bell.

Then with the likes of Cranie, Wood and McPake and Cameron etc. it is not so relevant as their defensive position usually means it doesn't come into the equation so much.

Bottom 6 clubs: surely we are where we belong? (2 Viewers)

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