Budget (1 Viewer)

Sky Blue Pete said:

Think that’s right and why now if anyone has money they don’t mind using for their club they should get together with some rich friends and make an offer

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Sounds like you’re the one with the rich friends Pete!

shmmeee said:

Sounds like you’re the one with the rich friends Pete!

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His version is not the same as joy or sisus. I think in business you don’t have friends you just have people you deal with.
I can’t see anything changing this year but if we struggle and lose robins then I can. I genuinely am not sure what enjoyment out owner has although she has clearly taken more of an interest the last 4 years and has people she trusts in robins and boddy and dare I say fisher.
Would love to know genuinely what offer would be acceptable and whether anyone is willing to pay and genuinely if a deal was possible. If not then like you I agree without selling players regularly and for more than we paid and then replace and repeat there is no way of us breaking even in the championship

Sky Blue Pete said:

His version is not the same as joy or sisus. I think in business you don’t have friends you just have people you deal with.
I can’t see anything changing this year but if we struggle and lose robins then I can. I genuinely am not sure what enjoyment out owner has although she has clearly taken more of an interest the last 4 years and has people she trusts in robins and boddy and dare I say fisher.
Would love to know genuinely what offer would be acceptable and whether anyone is willing to pay and genuinely if a deal was possible. If not then like you I agree without selling players regularly and for more than we paid and then replace and repeat there is no way of us breaking even in the championship

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exactly the same for every other club in the championship apart from maybe those with Parachute payments

skybluesam66 said:

exactly the same for every other club in the championship apart from maybe those with Parachute payments

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Yep

Deleted member 5849 said:

I guess we also have to think about whether selling somebody like Hamer stops us having to sell O'Hare, say.

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I have my doubts we will be able to sell either player unless a premiership club or one of the three with parachute money want one of them, the bottom has fallen out of the transfer market, this summer there will be a lot of players without clubs and a lot of clubs without money. Now if O’Hare can start adding the goals to his game he should he could attract prem interest but that would be in 12 months time.

Really not convinced that our owners are of a mindset to pump millions in to the playing side on the high risk strategy that it would move us up the table or get us promoted.

Yes they specialise in losses and risks but i think their focus is now taking risks on young players they bring in hoping that at least one or two come off each season. That in turn finances the team but also a element of loan and interest repayment. Or at least i think that was the plan. I suspect it has had to be reassessed in terms of timelines because of the effects of the pandemic on the transfer market

They have achieved an increase in overall value despite the pandemic. CCFC retained championship status having never been in the bottom 3, there has been i suspect no great amounts loaned to the club (if anything at all), the squad is more experienced and possibly more valuable, there is stability of playing site for 10 years, the potential for much bigger crowds next year and for more commercial income on the back of that, the wage bill wont have been allowed to go above what we can afford. You have to ask why would they change and spend millions to basically to achieve the same?

Have they got access to millions to loan to the club in the first place? Are their investors looking to extract loans and investment return? When talking about the owners then look at it from the owners stand point. Forget about it being emotive and our football club. What is their objective?

I do not think that they will sell before paying down the loans & interest (dont forget interest is still accruing each and every year circa 1.4m at the moment). If they sell the club/otium before paying off the loans and interest they in effect take a loss. They would have to apply the sale value to the loans. Pay the loans off, pay the interest off and the sale value becomes all profit. That still leaves the 28m + owing to SBS&L so to repay that SBS&L need to sell the interest in Otium - gives an indication perhaps as to minimum sale price (seem to remember Seppala saying 18m or similar figures when club in L1 & L2). Before you scoff if a club laden with debt, no major assets is perceived by the owners as worth £18m what is one with no debt worth in the Championship?

The budget next year will be based on increased crowds, more commercial income, possible player trading and past trading. The club will live within its own means with SISU dipping in with some cash if necessary as a last resort. I see no reason why SISU would change the way they have been doing things the last 4 years - it has afterall paid net loan & interest down with the club being successful by anyones standards. I think the notion that they will invest millions to be at the top end of the table is fantasy But thats just my opinion.

ps - i dont want the owners loading the club with real debt. We have done that and 20 years later we are still coping with the results. I understand the limits that sets but i also understand the damage that has done to us in the past and is doing to other clubs now. The long term future is more important than a one off fling at glory that statistically is likely to fail.

Not sure why this argument always polarises as “spend nothing or you’re asking for tens of millions and bankruptcy” TBH.

We are a Championship level club in a Championship level stadium. It won’t take tens of millions to make us a Championship level squad as well, but undershooting the league average by 60% or so and expecting your once in a lifetime manager to stick around and perform miracles to keep you up every season isn’t a business plan.

Sky Blue Pete said:

Why is that?

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Technically it isn't true because they'd always be willing to sell if someone offered silly money. Reality is no-one will.

Can't see them selling up because they won't get what they want. No-one is going to pay up what the owners are owed + interest for a club that is lower end Championship without stadium ownership and an ageing training facility.

Considering the potential returns from one good/fluke season at this level they won't sell for anything less but if we struggle next season the threat of relegation and losing income as well as losing the possibility of the big payday would massively reduce the offers and wouldn't meet their demands.

Same with all people that work in those sort of sectors - everything they own is worth every penny and more but everything they want to buy is massively overpriced and the current owners are deluded in their expectations

Samo said:

As i mentioned in anther thread, there is a choice involved and that choice is with our owners.
So... Joy, reward MR with a mid table budget at least or sell up please.
Our positive trajectory needs to be seized upon.

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They won't overspend , would require several millions of pounds more to get us a middle of the division budget .

They want Robins to do more with less and whilst he gets results that won't change

shmmeee said:

It won’t take tens of millions to make us a Championship level squad as well,

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not in one season it wont, but the Championship model has always implied that clubs must invest (borrow usually) millions each and every year to maintain that position even at the lowest levels. Clearly SISU dont make interest free loans (interest over 10%), they have to get the money from somewhere and that somewhere expect a return.

It, in a sense, doesnt matter what other teams are doing or what the fans want & shout about. What matters is what are SISU trying to do. It isnt some sort of an ego trip for Joy she wants a return for her investors. She proved she could get a return of £1.5m in a year whilst in L1. So my questions are what is it Seppala is trying to achieve? Is league position key to that? does her objective require more than the absolute minimum investment/loans?

I may well be proven wrong but i do not see SISU putting in money to speculate on players. They will continue their role as bankers of last resort confident that they have improved the value of their asset, and proven it is possible to do that and extract significant funds

HuckerbyDublinWhelan said:

The alternative is more desirable, get our friends to all go, pack out the Ricoh week in week out, buy all the merchandise and the budget will increase.

They’ve made it clear we work at break even. It’s an ok model that keeps the club on its own 2 feet.

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It's not technically keeping on it's own two feet. It is requiring a cash boost from the owners to cover the cashflow shortfall every year and without that we'd not be in a position to continue, Arguably in the last couple of years with the owners taking some of the money out to repay their investors it's become a bit of robbing Peter to pay Paul and the bit that we need to know is what is the interest rate of the loans we're paying back compared to the interest rates on the cash they're putting in each year.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:

It's not technically keeping on it's own two feet. It is requiring a cash boost from the owners to cover the cashflow shortfall every year and without that we'd not be in a position to continue, Arguably in the last couple of years with the owners taking some of the money out to repay their investors it's become a bit of robbing Peter to pay Paul and the bit that we need to know is what is the interest rate of the loans we're paying back compared to the interest rates on the cash they're putting in each year.

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However does that still apply when you went from earning around 600k a season in league 1 to earning closer towards 8- 10 million a season in the championship with TV money included.

That's without ticket sales etc

Surely there's a point where the need to cover the negative cash flow isn't required and I'd imagine that was this season ...however the pandemic will screw the figures

Long story short , the club should be standing on its own two feet in a normal championship season with the money coming in , considering we will now be bringing in several million more pounds by default

mrtrench said:

SISU aren't stupid. So why would they put so much money into a football club, knowing that they almost all lose money all of the time?

They were wrong but I think they thought there were two reasons:

1. Primarily, I think it was a property play. They thought they could get the Ricoh for peanuts and then sell on immediately.

2. At the time, we had only just been relegated from the Premiership, having been there from the very start. Ranson convinced them that it wouldn't take a lot of money to get us back quickly. When has that ever worked for anyone ever? There's plenty done it and reached the top (was Jack Walker the first?), but none have made money from it.

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I agree. When they took over we were in with a chance of going back up but the club finances were so poor that was hampering it from achieving it. So a relatively modest investment to buy a struggling club and buy some decent players could see a quick turnaround for a very large profit if we'd gone back up. Also the then-option to buy the stadium would've also been a potential money spinner.

Issue was they went for the quick return on the players they bought and left us in avery weak position on the field eventually leading to us slipping even further down. A couple of years to let those players develop further and they could've been in a strong position to get promotion.

Grendel said:

We are in a position where Sisu will have zero interest in selling

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Not wholly true. The length of the rental agreement makes us a better bet.

Also you make no allowance for SISU's own business needs. They have owned us for 15+ years, it has always been Joy and Timmy. That cannot continue for ever. Their reasons for persevering with us have long mystified me, but should they finally decide to pack it in, we are a much better thing to offload than ever before.

HuckerbyDublinWhelan said:

And Ashley does buy players - Joelinton and Almiron cost 70 mil between them.

The fact they’re not worth that is neither here or there. Newcastle fans are the epitomy of entitled fans.

They’ve been telling Ashley to sell up and fuck off and at the same time expect him to pump in 100s of millions and are outraged he expects a return

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You could say the same about the fan's response to the Super League. Delete 'Ashley' insert 'Super league' delete 'him' and insert 'mult-millionaire owner'

Gibbo said:

Not wholly true. The length of the rental agreement makes us a better bet.

Also you make no allowance for SISU's own business needs. They have owned us for 15+ years, it has always been Joy and Timmy. That cannot continue for ever. Their reasons for persevering with us have long mystified me, but should they finally decide to pack it in, we are a much better thing to offload than ever before.

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Two years ago they made a significant return for the investors from the club

Just had a quick look for clubs detailing their turnover in Championship in their financials

for example
Millwall 2020 financials

Match income 4.4m
Central distributions 9.3m
Commercial 2.7m
TOTAL 16.4m

(they had wages 18.9m and made 9m loss)

Preston 2020

match 2.9m
Central 7m
other 1.1
TOTAL 11m

Losses 6.3m wages 20m

in 2019 CCFC L1 had

Match 2.5m
Broadcasting (central?) 1.7
Commercial 2.0
TOTAL 6.2m

wages 5.2m broke even


Looks to me like championship could uplift money available for budget by
Match 1.5m to 4m
Central 6.3 to 8m
Other by 1M to 3m

Total increase 8.8m and a turnover of £15m

Still small by comparison but gives MR more to work with

Feel like we won't see a huge budget increases.

I think SISU will be happy to gamble they can keep us here without spending much. The problem in The Championship is you can spend a lot more and do not a huge amount better (Blues, Blackburn, Stoke, Mboro, etc, etc).

oldskyblue58 said:

Just had a quick look for clubs detailing their turnover in Championship in their financials

for example
Millwall 2020 financials

Match income 4.4m
Central distributions 9.3m
Commercial 2.7m
TOTAL 16.4m

(they had wages 18.9m and made 9m loss)

Preston 2020

match 2.9m
Central 7m
other 1.1
TOTAL 11m

Losses 6.3m wages 20m

in 2019 CCFC L1 had

Match 2.5m
Broadcasting (central?) 1.7
Commercial 2.0
TOTAL 6.2m

wages 5.2m broke even


Looks to me like championship could uplift money available for budget by
Match 1.5m to 4m
Central 6.3 to 8m
Other by 1M to 3m

Total increase 8.8m and a turnover of £15m

Still small by comparison but gives MR more to work with

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I'm guessing central is things like solidarity payments and sky TV money ?

Evo1883 said:

I'm guessing central is things like solidarity payments and sky TV money ?

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It is and our turnover will be certainly higher than other clubs in this division next season

Grendel said:

It is and our turnover will be certainly higher than other clubs in this division next season

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I think we will have a better season next season anyway tbh .. realistically I'm hopeful we can push on to mid table and continue gradually with a year on year improvement

Evo1883 said:

I think we will have a better season next season anyway tbh .. realistically I'm hopeful we can push on to mid table and continue gradually with a year on year improvement

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I think we will and I don’t see a large turnover of players lots of out of contract players around this summer going to be down to good management I think.

After this season, budget isn't something we should be worrying about. Teams won't be spending and we have proven we can survive without the cash. We will see if the other teams can.

Evo1883 said:

I think we will have a better season next season anyway tbh .. realistically I'm hopeful we can push on to mid table and continue gradually with a year on year improvement

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We would have had a better season this year had we not had all our best players out injured for half the season, the fact we never dropped into the bottom three for any length of time is unbelievable, our squad will get better more experienced and some decent young players on the horizon.

Grendel said:

Yes it’s worth remembering Sisu really were just a funding arm for Ranson who had convinced them he could deliver high returns

I don’t agree with the property play. Remember ranson was as a long lost poster once said like a cheap Tupperware salesman going from club to club to find a home for his shoddy investments. I think he had very specific intentions and certainly they were not for the good of the club

The property play only happened when they woke up and realised Ranson was just a shameless chancer and woefully out his depth and the money was all gone

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I’m sure Ranson said that the time that there was point in purchasing half of the Ricoh, or whatever it was. He would have been advising SISU, I presume.
Yet the weird ‘Uncle Ray’ attitude towards him is still there amongst supporters.

Sick Boy said:

I’m sure Ranson said that the time that there was point in purchasing half of the Ricoh, or whatever it was. He would have been advising SISU, I presume.
Yet the weird ‘Uncle Ray’ attitude towards him is still there amongst supporters.

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Ranson was a fantasist.
Look at his comments about supposedly having deals agreed for Carroll, Cork & Henderson. Utter fiction. Unfortunately lots lapped it up.

Magwitch1 said:

I have my doubts we will be able to sell either player unless a premiership club or one of the three with parachute money want one of them, the bottom has fallen out of the transfer market, this summer there will be a lot of players without clubs and a lot of clubs without money. Now if O’Hare can start adding the goals to his game he should he could attract prem interest but that would be in 12 months time.

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Why would a PL club be interested in Hamer?
Agree on CoH, i wouldn’t be surprised if a top end Championship club put in a bid over the summer.

I have always loathed SISU and the way they operate. There are so many ways they have screwed us over. The wierd thing is football is a form of addiction that most people on here have in abundance else we all wouldn't care so much. Can you invest and watch your team for so long and not get hooked if only in a small way. Are Sisu so cold hearted they can have no affiliation with the club at all and its all hard cash? I cant believe you watch a team and have no emotional investment. That said, I dont think any money is forthcoming any time soon from the ice queen.

Grendel said:

It is and our turnover will be certainly higher than other clubs in this division next season

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Not sure if you are making a cute observation or just trying to set up Robins again? Lol

"...this season we had a second from bottom budget in the league, and whilst we will marginally increase spend next year, at the very best it will probably be the fourth from bottom budget." - Dave Boddy #pusb #skyblues

At least its going up! As much as moving back to Cov will increase income there will be over a season of lost income to make up over the next few years.

Hopefully between covid and the ESL mess it will encourage the authorities to get a better grip on the state of football finance so we're not competing with clubs happy to chuck away £15m a season. Won't hold my breathe waiting for that to happen.

Quite like that. Temper expectation

Assuming Rotherham and Wycombe go down, that’s quite heartening. One would assume we’ll be higher than Peterborough and they usually spend quite big.

Bigger than Hull maybe?

Sky Blue Pete said:

Quite like that. Temper expectation

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You'd think, didn't work this year though with fans calling for the manager's head despite almost never being in the bottom 3.

Sky Blue Pete said:

Quite like that. Temper expectation

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Temper ambition