Bury (2 Viewers)

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2019

Grendel said:
So you’d like the German model here? That’s interesting shall we talk about the 3rd tier of German football?

I'd like the German ownership model for certain. Would I like B teams in the league pyramid no but we already have them in the Checkafuckwit Trophy and lower league clubs rely on top flight loans more than ever before.

With the German model we wouldn't have gone to Northampton or Birmingham or have ended up with insects occupying our ground as a consequence of our owners' actions. We also wouldn't be paying £25-30 to watch generally mediocre football or to be denied having a drink in sight of the playing area. Go and watch games over there-it's a much better experience and their fan satisfaction backs that up. Funnily enough German fans only start to complain when their game becomes more like the commercialised shite served up over here

Grendel · Aug 18, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I'd like the German ownership model for certain. Would I like B teams in the league pyramid no but we already have them in the Checkafuckwit Trophy and lower league clubs rely on top flight loans more than ever before.

With the German model we wouldn't have gone to Northampton or Birmingham or have ended up with insects occupying our ground as a consequence of our owners' actions. We also wouldn't be paying £25-30 to watch generally mediocre football or to be denied having a drink in sight of the playing area. Go and watch games over there-it's a much better experience and their fan satisfaction backs that up. Funnily enough German fans only start to complain when their game becomes more like the commercialised shite served up over here

I pay £11 what are you on about

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2019

Grendel said:
I pay £11 what are you on about

To watch your team in Birmingham-at the Ricoh it was £15/17 for STs and over £25 for a walk-up ticket

No refutation of the other points though

Grendel · Aug 18, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
To watch your team in Birmingham-at the Ricoh it was £15/17 for STs and over £25 for a walk-up ticket

No refutation of the other points though

So what is the average attendance in the German premier league?

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2019

Grendel said:
So what is the average attendance in the German premier league?

The average Bundesliga crowd was 43,500 last season. The average for the EPL was 38,200. Also worth mentioning both Dortmund and Bayern got bigger averages than Man Utd

Grendel · Aug 18, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The average Bundesliga crowd was 43,500 last season. The average for the EPL was 38,200. Also worth mentioning both Dortmund and Bayern got bigger averages than Man Utd

Awesome so what about the leagues below

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2019

Championship: 19,600
2. Bundesliga: 19,100

League 1: 8,200
3. Liga: 8,100

Of course you'd have asked me for these if the EPL had 5,000 larger average than the Bundesliga

Grendel · Aug 18, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Championship: 19,600
2. Bundesliga: 19,100

League 1: 8,200
3. Liga: 8,100

Of course you'd have asked me for these if the EPL had 5,000 larger average than the Bundesliga

No of course not. I’d ask you the catchment populations of Germany versus England and Wales and then see if this wonderful policy regarding football in Germany attracts a higher percentage of the population

The answer clearly is - it doesn’t

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2019

Grendel said:
No of course not. I’d ask you the catchment populations of Germany versus England and Wales and then see if this wonderful policy regarding football in Germany attracts a higher percentage of the population

The answer clearly is - it doesn’t

Feeble excuses-what matters is the catchment area of the relevant population centres

Mcbean · Aug 18, 2019

Curzon Ashton offered Bury season tickets holders free entry to their games apparently - its quite close to Bury

Gazolba · Aug 19, 2019

What a horrible name for a town or football club "Bury".

Terry Gibson's perm · Aug 22, 2019

So who is the proposed saviour of Bury

The one and only stadium collector Norman Smurthwaite. So the rules over duel ownership would be broken as he still owns part of Port Vale.

Nick · Aug 22, 2019

Terry Gibson's perm said:
So who is the proposed saviour of Bury

The one and only stadium collector Norman Smurthwaite. So the rules over duel ownership would be broken as he still owns part of Port Vale.

I thought he sold it to that couple?

Terry Gibson's perm · Aug 22, 2019

Nick said:
I thought he sold it to that couple?

Just read he still holds part of it for three years (probably the ground but knowing him)

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 22, 2019

Nick said:
I thought he sold it to that couple?

He did.

Currently Bury would take a Seppala / Oyston consortium, I'm sure. It's that bad.

Otis · Aug 22, 2019

They could always take out a Quick Quid loan. Current APR is only 1300.5%.

Terry Gibson's perm · Aug 22, 2019

Last month, Smurthwaite told Nottinghamshire Live how he still had a substantial investment in Port Vale for the next 36 months after selling the club to Kevin and Carol Shanahan which prevented him from owning another EFL club.

But it is believed the EFL will now not oppose him from taking control at Gigg Lane as they look for a resolution to the crisis.

Nick · Aug 22, 2019

Terry Gibson's perm said:
Last month, Smurthwaite told Nottinghamshire Live how he still had a substantial investment in Port Vale for the next 36 months after selling the club to Kevin and Carol Shanahan which prevented him from owning another EFL club.

But it is believed the EFL will now not oppose him from taking control at Gigg Lane as they look for a resolution to the crisis.

Wonder why it's only 3 years? Unless they are paying him in installments?

Terry Gibson's perm · Aug 22, 2019

Nick said:
Wonder why it's only 3 years? Unless they are paying him in installments?

I have no idea but it looks like the efl will move the goal posts to suit again.

I expect the Friday deadline to be extended

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Aug 22, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I'd like the German ownership model for certain. Would I like B teams in the league pyramid no but we already have them in the Checkafuckwit Trophy and lower league clubs rely on top flight loans more than ever before.

With the German model we wouldn't have gone to Northampton or Birmingham or have ended up with insects occupying our ground as a consequence of our owners' actions. We also wouldn't be paying £25-30 to watch generally mediocre football or to be denied having a drink in sight of the playing area. Go and watch games over there-it's a much better experience and their fan satisfaction backs that up. Funnily enough German fans only start to complain when their game becomes more like the commercialised shite served up over here

To be fair you’d need a competent fans representative if you want the German model. We’d have the trust paying 1.5 million a year as per council request.

Also £25 is about the going rate. You’d need league wide pricing to drop it. That would never happen

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 22, 2019

HuckerbyDublinWhelan said:
To be fair you’d need a competent fans representative if you want the German model. We’d have the trust paying 1.5 million a year as per council request.

Also £25 is about the going rate. You’d need league wide pricing to drop it. That would never happen

No you’d need safe standing. Ask most German fans if they’d want to swap places...

Nick · Aug 22, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
No you’d need safe standing. Ask most German fans if they’d want to swap places...

You would need to make it league wide as he said.

While it would be nice to drop the prices for a self sufficient fan owned club, it then means you aren't competing with the people charging £25 still.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 22, 2019

Nick said:
You would need to make it league wide as he said.

While it would be nice to drop the prices for a self sufficient fan owned club, it then means you aren't competing with the people charging £25 still.

The price doesn’t justify the ‘product’

Otis · Aug 22, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The price doesn’t justify the ‘product’

Aye, I used that same phrase many a time on my late night Hillfields visits.

CJ_covblaze · Aug 22, 2019

It's not clear at present why tomorrow's meeting was cancelled today. Could indicate good or bad news.

http://skybluetrust.co.uk/index.php/114-latest-news/691-efl-take-action-now-sky-blue-trust-backing-clubs-in-crisis…

Nick · Aug 22, 2019

CJ_covblaze said:
It's not clear at present why tomorrow's meeting was cancelled today. Could indicate good or bad news.

http://skybluetrust.co.uk/index.php/114-latest-news/691-efl-take-action-now-sky-blue-trust-backing-clubs-in-crisis…

Were you going to lobby about the golden share being taken and them kicked out the league?

Sick Boy · Aug 23, 2019

The Trust shouldn’t anywhere near that meeting, especially after it’s leader openly support the franchise’s move to the city.

Nick · Aug 23, 2019

I keep seeing people saying about Premier League clubs bailing them out.

Does this mean they want a PL team to give the owner loads of money to sell up and hand it to somebody else? Where does it end? Should we get Man City to give seppalla some money to give the club to the fans?

Frostie · Aug 23, 2019

Nick said:
I keep seeing people saying about Premier League clubs bailing them out.

Does this mean they want a PL team to give the owner loads of money to sell up and hand it to somebody else? Where does it end? Should we get Man City to give seppalla some money to give the club to the fans?

Quite.

Finances in English football do need a massive shake up with funds redistributed to EFL clubs (and below) more fairly, but in this instance they’d just be handing money over to an asset stripping conman who’d walk away with the cash.

Worth noting that Man City gave free use of their old Carrington Training Centre to Bury but they even failed to maintain upkeep on that.

The EFL needs a complete reform because, with their current, flexible “guidelines“ they’re currently powerless to stop charlatans running (ruining) football clubs.

Grendel · Aug 23, 2019

Frostie said:
Quite.

Finances in English football do need a massive shake up with funds redistributed to EFL clubs (and below) more fairly, but in this instance they’d just be handing money over to an asset stripping conman who’d walk away with the cash.

Worth noting that Man City gave free use of their old Carrington Training Centre to Bury but they even failed to maintain upkeep on that.

The EFL needs a complete reform because, with their current, flexible “guidelines“ they’re currently powerless to stop charlatans running (ruining) football clubs.

They will always be powerless it’s a fallacy to believe that’s within their control

Frostie · Aug 23, 2019

Grendel said:
They will always be powerless it’s a fallacy to believe that’s within their control

It’s a fair point & I totally agree that in their current guise they are powerless. As a governing body they aren’t fit for purpose.
They should be run by a combination of proper business & football people. What they CAN do is have a meaningful “Fit & Proper Owners Test” & failure results in expulsion from the EFL... but they need existing owners on board... sadly it may be too late.

Accrington chairman makes some great points on Twitter:

chiefdave · Aug 23, 2019

Frostie said:
Accrington chairman makes some great points on Twitter:

Its a nice soundbite but how would it work in practice. How do you stop people who the law of the land says are allowed to from buying and selling businesses?

And even if you could do that how are they going to know what is coming 1, 2 or 5 years down the line. Most of the time when we hear people shouting 'fit and proper' its about an owner that has been in place for several years.

Frostie · Aug 23, 2019

You can’t stop them buying but you can restrict their ability to play in the Football League.

He goes on to talk about it being an ongoing process, each year proving they have the ability to fund the club & fulfil their obligations.

I don’t believe Steve Dale ever even passed the existing test:
Bury takeover went through without full Football League approval
*And the EFL have since admitted they let it slide as they knew he’d fail

What’s clear is something must change. Dale bought Bury for £1 in December & now wants £800k to sell plus new owners needing to take on other debts.
He has been associated with 51 companies, 43 of which have been liquidated...

Nick · Aug 23, 2019

Frostie said:
You can’t stop them buying but you can restrict their ability to play in the Football League.

He goes on to talk about it being an ongoing process, each year proving they have the ability to fund the club & fulfil their obligations.

I don’t believe Steve Dale ever even passed the existing test:
Bury takeover went through without full Football League approval
*And the EFL have since admitted they let it slide as they knew he’d fail

What’s clear is something must change. Dale bought Bury for £1 in December & now wants £800k to sell plus new owners needing to take on other debts.
He has been associated with 51 companies, 43 of which have been liquidated...

Has he put any money in at all?

Frostie · Aug 23, 2019

Who knows, not been paying players/staff or maintenance on training ground. Such a convoluted mess.

More I read it sure seems like an asset strip;

“Court papers reveal that Dale, who bought the crisis-stricken League One club for £1 in December 2018, said he was owed £3.68m last month, while a company called RCR Holdings, which was formed on July 16, claimed to be owed £7.1m.

It was deemed, however, by the chair of proceedings, that there was an element of crossover between the two debts and only the figure of £7.1m was voted upon by Bury’s creditors.”

That “crossover”?
RCR is a newly formed company allegedly owned by his daughters boyfriend.

I suspect he stands to benefit personally if they go to the wall as he’ll own the stadium/land or similar.

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