Capitalism- End Of (1 Viewer)

Flying Fokker · Nov 18, 2022

I watched Brian Cox on Channel 5 last night. It made for uncomfortable viewing in as much as he sought the views of rich people regarding their wealth. One of the guys was a young bloke who made an absolute fortune betting on commodities, but left his job and says Capitalism is broken Due to a very small minority buying property up. Etc.

some of the rich contributors suggest that we may reach a point of civil unrest.

In this day and age, I think a Universal basic income is the way to go. In my job, albeit a limited snapshot, I see Service Users who don’t know how to manage money, some of whom have £150/ week discretionary spending. Cash is often used to great effect in buying CD’s Or, games or dvd’s. That is a damn sight more than I choose to spend per week. Many support workers are on income support.

Is there any answer out there?

of course, The Telegraph has its own perspective. Brian Cox: How the Other Half Live, review: TV's Logan Roy is apoplectic at the wealth gap

Grendel · Nov 18, 2022

Brian Cox often likes to talk about socialism and it’s benefits - less so the fact he has 3 homes - two in the states - and is worth many millions which he seems very happy to keep

robbiekeane · Nov 18, 2022

Flying Fokker said:
I watched Brian Cox on Channel 5 last night. It made for uncomfortable viewing in as much as he sought the views of rich people regarding their wealth. One of the guys was a young bloke who made an absolute fortune betting on commodities, but left his job and says Capitalism is broken Due to a very small minority buying property up. Etc.

some of the rich contributors suggest that we may reach a point of civil unrest.

In this day and age, I think a Universal basic income is the way to go. In my job, albeit a limited snapshot, I see Service Users who don’t know how to manage money, some of whom have £150/ week discretionary spending. Cash is often used to great effect in buying CD’s Or, games or dvd’s. That is a damn sight more than I choose to spend per week. Many support workers are on income support.

Is there any answer out there?

of course, The Telegraph has its own perspective. Brian Cox: How the Other Half Live, review: TV's Logan Roy is apoplectic at the wealth gap

universal basic income

ok

Flying Fokker · Nov 18, 2022

robbiekeane said:
universal basic income

ok

Never heard of it being trialled in other countries? It is not about everyone having the same money? Ok looks like a sound response to a question needing a bit more detail.

Flying Fokker · Nov 18, 2022

Grendel said:
Brian Cox often likes to talk about socialism and it’s benefits - less so the fact he has 3 homes - two in the states - and is worth many millions which he seems very happy to keep

Interesting, that gets me as well. I guess all people hold on to what they have. I thought the same about John Cauldwells commitment of giving away 75% to worthy causes. Poor bloke will be left with leass than 400 mill. Do these mega rich stars deserve a platform In talking about poverty. My take on this is that most of them are self/made millionaires+. Many of course have the fortune ti have an education paid for by their parents.

robbiekeane · Nov 18, 2022

Flying Fokker said:
Never heard of it being trialled in other companies? It is not about everyone having the same money? Ok looks like a sound response to a question needing a bit more detail.

Namibia, Mongolia, and Iran had a pretty good go at it

napolimp · Nov 18, 2022

Grendel said:
Brian Cox often likes to talk about socialism and it’s benefits - less so the fact he has 3 homes - two in the states - and is worth many millions which he seems very happy to keep

A fair point, but not a valid counter to the actual discussion.

JAM See · Nov 18, 2022

Flying Fokker said:
I watched Brian Cox on Channel 5 last night. It made for uncomfortable viewing in as much as he sought the views of rich people regarding their wealth. One of the guys was a young bloke who made an absolute fortune betting on commodities, but left his job and says Capitalism is broken Due to a very small minority buying property up. Etc.

some of the rich contributors suggest that we may reach a point of civil unrest.

In this day and age, I think a Universal basic income is the way to go. In my job, albeit a limited snapshot, I see Service Users who don’t know how to manage money, some of whom have £150/ week discretionary spending. Cash is often used to great effect in buying CD’s Or, games or dvd’s. That is a damn sight more than I choose to spend per week. Many support workers are on income support.

Is there any answer out there?

of course, The Telegraph has its own perspective. Brian Cox: How the Other Half Live, review: TV's Logan Roy is apoplectic at the wealth gap

With paywall removed

12ft

12ft.io

napolimp · Nov 18, 2022

robbiekeane said:
universal basic income

ok

Didn't some Scandinavian country have universal basic income? I think the whole point was that it didn't force entrepreneurial type people into the work force, giving the opportunity to get creative.

JAM See · Nov 18, 2022

napolimp said:
Didn't some Scandinavian country have universal basic income? I think the whole point was that it didn't force entrepreneurial type people into the work force, giving the opportunity to get creative.

Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

First major study of scheme comes as economic toll of coronavirus prompts fresh interest in idea

www.theguardian.com

fernandopartridge · Nov 18, 2022

I'm not sure about UBI anymore but I prefer the idea of a job guarantee in the context of ignoring the rubbish about a sovereign currency issuer having a budget like a household.

cowboy1850 · Nov 18, 2022

JAM See said:
Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

First major study of scheme comes as economic toll of coronavirus prompts fresh interest in idea

www.theguardian.com

Thanks for the link, I find it quite interesting.
Reading that article and I might be totally wrong but the results are not a true reflection if you're only randomly selecting 2,000 unemployed people.
An unemployed person getting UBI surrounded by people not getting UBI makes them privileged and possibly less likely to make any meaningful changes.
Whereas an unemployed person surrounded by others getting UBI will see others putting the money to good use (i.e. somebody with a job using the UBI to get a newer car) and then more likely to make some changes (maybe get a job to boost their own financial situation further).
?

wingy · Nov 18, 2022

robbiekeane said:
Namibia, Mongolia, and Iran had a pretty good go at it

Finland?

wingy · Nov 18, 2022

It kind of is as it appears to need topping up entry ten years or so.
If you project ahead 50 years or so it's practically guaranteed

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 18, 2022

Grendel said:
Brian Cox often likes to talk about socialism and it’s benefits - less so the fact he has 3 homes - two in the states - and is worth many millions which he seems very happy to keep

I tell you why I lean left rather than right - rather than the destrutive trying to take people down and not actually engaging in the argument and idea but, rather, seeking to be negative about the person, there is at least an attempt to offer a positive solution more often.

And yes, no doubt you will respond with the ah buts to clain otherwise therefore, ironically, re-enforcing my point.

Ah well.

Grendel · Nov 18, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
I tell you why I lean left rather than right - rather than the destrutive trying to take people down and not actually engaging in the argument and idea but, rather, seeking to be negative about the person, there is at least an attempt to offer a positive solution more often.

And yes, no doubt you will respond with the ah buts to clain otherwise therefore, ironically, re-enforcing my point.

Ah well.

There is no argument. Capitalism is the only practical solution and when the likes of Brian Cox argue against it it’s no more credible than Jeremy Hunt claiming we are all in it together

napolimp · Nov 18, 2022

Grendel said:
There is no argument. Capitalism is the only practical solution and when the likes of Brian Cox argue against it it’s no more credible than Jeremy Hunt claiming we are all in it together

? This country runs on a mixture of capitalist and socialist principles. Has there ever been a state which is purely capitalist?

shmmeee · Nov 18, 2022

Grendel said:
Brian Cox often likes to talk about socialism and it’s benefits - less so the fact he has 3 homes - two in the states - and is worth many millions which he seems very happy to keep

Fucking hypocrite. Unlike you who is assume never uses public roads, the NHS, the police force, the courts, or hires educated employees or any of the other “socialist” things.

This idea that all socialists must be poor just exposes your complete lack of political understanding.

shmmeee · Nov 18, 2022

napolimp said:
? This country runs on a mixture of capitalist and socialist principles. Has there ever been a state which is purely capitalist?

Failed states basically. But you never see Grendel upping sticks and moving to the free market wonderland of the DRC

shmmeee · Nov 18, 2022

Grendel said:
There is no argument. Capitalism is the only practical solution and when the likes of Brian Cox argue against it it’s no more credible than Jeremy Hunt claiming we are all in it together

What do you think capitalism and socialism are exactly?

napolimp · Nov 18, 2022

shmmeee said:
Fucking hypocrite. Unlike you who is assume never uses public roads, the NHS, the police force, the courts, or hires educated employees or any of the other “socialist” things.

This idea that all socialists must be poor just exposes your complete lack of political understanding.

I wouldn't expect Grendel to take an interest, but anyone who's interested in what running essential services under a free market model looks like, should research the story of Barnet Council. Funnily enough, even though they're working on bringing their services back in house, one of their call centres are still in Coventry on the Foleshill Road.

SBT · Nov 18, 2022

Grendel said:
There is no argument. Capitalism is the only practical solution and when the likes of Brian Cox argue against it it’s no more credible than Jeremy Hunt claiming we are all in it together

What's the maximum net wealth someone can have before they can no longer offer a critique of capitalism in your view?

shmmeee · Nov 18, 2022

SBT said:
What's the maximum net wealth someone can have before they can no longer offer a critique of capitalism in your view?

Not just net wealth. Remember you can’t drink Starbucks or use an iPhone, I assume therefore any items not foraged or provided by the government are forbidden.

As always when this ridiculous talking point comes up:

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 18, 2022

Grendel said:
Grendel said:

There is no argument. Capitalism is the only practical solution and when the likes of Brian Cox argue against it it’s no more credible than Jeremy Hunt claiming we are all in it together

Click to expand...

Well if it's the only practical solution then isn't is about time it started actually working?

Capitalism only has a chance of working if everyone is on equal footing, so all of the arguments about price competition etc can apply as no-one can unduly influence the process with their own higher wealth. Otherwise all you get is a small bunch of people that use what they already have to prevent those that don't from getting what they deserve from their endeavours. So capitalism doesn't work. It can't. The fault is inherent in the system - the more you repeat the system the more it stops it from working.

skybluetony176 · Nov 18, 2022

napolimp said:
? This country runs on a mixture of capitalist and socialist principles. Has there ever been a state which is purely capitalist?

Saudi Arabia?

skybluetony176 · Nov 18, 2022

I watched it last night and I don’t think Brian Cox is comfortable with his wealth. Which is sort of the point of the series.

People shouldn’t feel or be made to feel guilty about wealth. They should feel guilty about tax avoidance if they’re involved. Or exploiting their workforce if they do.

The man has more than one home. Wow wee, lot’s of people do and they not all millionaires either.

Philosoraptor · Nov 18, 2022

shmmeee said:
Fucking hypocrite. Unlike you who is assume never uses public roads, the NHS, the police force, the courts, or hires educated employees or any of the other “socialist” things.

This idea that all socialists must be poor just exposes your complete lack of political understanding.

Spoken like a true Capitalist.

Philosoraptor · Nov 18, 2022

Correct me If I am wrong shmmeee, but wasn't the Blair/Brown years the first time a generation has left the next generation to be poorer because of their actions in Government?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 18, 2022

skybluetony176 said:
I watched it last night and I don’t think Brian Cox is comfortable with his wealth. Which is sort of the point of the series.

People shouldn’t feel or be made to feel guilty about wealth. They should feel guilty about tax avoidance if they’re involved. Or exploiting their workforce if they do.

The man has more than one home. Wow wee, lot’s of people do and they not all millionaires either.

I sort of depends on the level of wealth. Having enough to be comfortable - a roof over your head, food on your table and no need to stress about the future are all fine. And for that you'd actually need a decent amount of money.

It's when you get into big luxuries and mistreating others that I get annoyed. We have people arguing for uncapped bankers bonuses to spunk on Ferrari's and the uber-wealthy treating their employees like absolute shit so they can have a megayacht and a massive rocket prick but those at the bottom don't deserve a tiny increase in comparison because they got an iphone and an occasional Maccy D's.

So Bezos says he's going to 'give away' large amounts of his fortune? Well why not pay your employees better, give them better conditions and pay some fucking tax. Then you won't have the 'problem' of having to give over $100bn away.

Philosoraptor · Nov 18, 2022

UBI isn't means tested.

It means everyone would get it. A bit like helping out a multi-millionaire with their electricity bill on those forthcoming cold nights to heat their stables.

I would think that there are certain advantages to it, though. Would certainly cut out the red tape on getting ahead in life, amongst the entrepreneurial.

That's if it truly gives more benefit than the present system gives.

Things have a way of being tapered back to be less decent than first thought.

Philosoraptor · Nov 18, 2022

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I sort of depends on the level of wealth. Having enough to be comfortable - a roof over your head, food on your table and no need to stress about the future are all fine. And for that you'd actually need a decent amount of money.

It's when you get into big luxuries and mistreating others that I get annoyed. We have people arguing for uncapped bankers bonuses to spunk on Ferrari's and the uber-wealthy treating their employees like absolute shit so they can have a megayacht and a massive rocket prick but those at the bottom don't deserve a tiny increase in comparison because they got an iphone and an occasional Maccy D's.

So Bezos says he's going to 'give away' large amounts of his fortune? Well why not pay your employees better, give them better conditions and pay some fucking tax. Then you won't have the 'problem' of having to give over $100bn away.

Wait till we get onto the Frasers Group. That thread will be fun.

shmmeee · Nov 18, 2022

Philosorapter said:
Correct me If I am wrong shmmeee, but wasn't the Blair/Brown years the first time a generation has left the next generation to be poorer because of their actions in Government?

Im going to need some context

Philosoraptor · Nov 18, 2022

shmmeee said:
Im going to need some context

The Elephant in the Room : Why Gordon Brown and New Labour got thin...

Introduction From its inception, the New Labour project relied on economic growth to right the social ills of British society. Growth would provide the resources to improve the NHS, education at al...

journals.openedition.org

shmmeee · Nov 19, 2022

Philosorapter said:
The Elephant in the Room : Why Gordon Brown and New Labour got thin...

Introduction From its inception, the New Labour project relied on economic growth to right the social ills of British society. Growth would provide the resources to improve the NHS, education at al...

journals.openedition.org

There’s bit I agree and bits I don’t from what I’ve read but I’m not trawling through that to find the bit you’re referring to, certainly the first part and the summary don’t back up your claim as they’re a critique of growth, which by definition makes people richer.

Millennials are due to be poorer than previous generations, but I’m not sure how that’s specifically Labours fault when it’s a global issue: Millennials poorer than previous generations, data show

Could New Labour have done more on housing costs and wages? Sure. No government has a perfect, but they did a lot better than the governments before and after.

The problem with the hard left isn’t necessarily their policy, it’s their distaste for actually getting elected so all the nice ideas in the world mean bugger all.

skybluetony176 · Nov 19, 2022

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I sort of depends on the level of wealth. Having enough to be comfortable - a roof over your head, food on your table and no need to stress about the future are all fine. And for that you'd actually need a decent amount of money.

It's when you get into big luxuries and mistreating others that I get annoyed. We have people arguing for uncapped bankers bonuses to spunk on Ferrari's and the uber-wealthy treating their employees like absolute shit so they can have a megayacht and a massive rocket prick but those at the bottom don't deserve a tiny increase in comparison because they got an iphone and an occasional Maccy D's.

So Bezos says he's going to 'give away' large amounts of his fortune? Well why not pay your employees better, give them better conditions and pay some fucking tax. Then you won't have the 'problem' of having to give over $100bn away.

Agree with a lot of what you say. The last bit about Bezos giving away millions is very poignant. A lot of wealthy people use charitable donations as a distraction or excuse for tax avoidance. We saw it with Wayne Rooney when his tax affairs came to light and it turned out he was partakeing in a massive tax avoidance scheme. His PR team went on the offensive releasing headline figures of what he donates to charity and the story largely went away. Some actually compared the claims to what the estimates of tax he was avoiding and it was a fraction of it, seem to recall one article compared the percentage of his income that he gave to charity compared to the national average that people give to charity as a percentage of their income and again it was a fraction. A lot of wealthy people see charity as a sort of palette cleanser for the other stuff they do, such as tax avoidance, exploiting workers etc etc. and because they can give a headline figure that on the face of it seems generous they largely if not completely get away with it.

Capitalism- End Of (1 Viewer)

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