Cobblers fan with questions (1 Viewer)

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

I'm not one of these fans who've come to gloat/goad/wind up etc. I have a genuine question

Why did SISU stop paying rent to begin with? Was it a genuine default or did they just refuse to pay.

I'm guessing I could just trawl through this board to find out but thought it would be quicker to ask.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Jul 15, 2013

They just refused to pay as they believed the amount (1.2 million per year) was way overpriced and wanted to negotiate a new deal.

The Penguin · Jul 15, 2013

I give credit to you for asking the question. Far too many people have simply assumed we defaulted and are flat broke.

Covstu · Jul 15, 2013

They have the money but wouldnt part with it! simple as that!

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

Soooooo they've defaulted but ACL say they haven't kicked them out.

This is what confuses me (and I'm not trying to justify the move to Northampton because to be honest I don't agree with it). Any other landlord would give an eviction notice to kick them out but because ACL want the football club at the Ricoh they haven't done so.

No wonder everyone is so confused

wingy · Jul 15, 2013

They were offered reduced terms down to £400K. with added Income streams that would have effectively negated the rent to £250K. and walked away ,they do have Matchday costs to factor In of around £10K. per match but they would be liable for some level of those at any ground

RPHunt · Jul 15, 2013

They were actually offered a reduction to £400k per year. And no they weren't evicted, they chose to do a runner.

shmmeee · Jul 15, 2013

Well I guess the hope was that it was a genuine negotiation instead of what it was which is a thinly veiled attempt to put the stadium management company out of business.

Remember that CCFC were paying all match day costs and that there was a £500k escrow account that ACL drew on first as well. So it's not quite like if you stopped paying your rent. Also remember ACL have never kicked them out and only called admin to stop the club being liquidated and to force the club's hand in terms of negotiations.

Your club is just the latest innocent party to be brought into Sisu's ballgame.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

That makes a few things clearer. So basically they're trying to do a midnight flit but telling the world where they're going.

Another question, does anyone actually think the club/SISU/whoever it is will be granted planning permission for a new ground? Surely with having the Ricoh in the city it negates the need for another ground

lordsummerisle · Jul 15, 2013

shmmeee said:
Well I guess the hope was that it was a genuine negotiation instead of what it was which is a thinly veiled attempt to put the stadium management company out of business.

Remember that CCFC were paying all match day costs and that there was a £500k escrow account that ACL drew on first as well. So it's not quite like if you stopped paying your rent. Also remember ACL have never kicked them out and only called admin to stop the club being liquidated and to force the club's hand in terms of negotiations.

Your club is just the latest innocent party to be brought into Sisu's ballgame.

ACL were the ones who refused to negotiate further with the club around January/February time I think, and have since refused to negotiate with the club except through the administrator. Which makes the Hoffman "non-offer" even more bizarre.

ACL don't need the club, they're just a millstone around the neck of the Stadium stopping it from making more money from concerts, exhibitions and other sporting clubs.

spwaverley4916 · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
That makes a few things clearer. So basically they're trying to do a midnight flit but telling the world where they're going.

Another question, does anyone actually think the club/SISU/whoever it is will be granted planning permission for a new ground? Surely with having the Ricoh in the city it negates the need for another ground

The Coventry Council probably would not - but not far out of the 'city limits' there is Nuneaton and Bedworth Council (the Ricoh sits just on the coventry council side of the border) or you have Rugby Council to the south. so the SISU gang might apply with those councils and still have a ground built within 8 miles(?) of the Ricoh.

lordsummerisle · Jul 15, 2013

spwaverley4916 said:
The Coventry Council probably would not - but not far out of the 'city limits' there is Nuneaton and Bedworth Council (the Ricoh sits just on the coventry council side of the border) or you have Rugby Council to the south. so the SISU gang might apply with those councils and still have a ground built within 8 miles(?) of the Ricoh.

To be fair, Grimsby's ground has always been in Cleethorpes, though the same local authority I expect.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

But don't they all come under Warwickshire County Council or are none of your major planning decisions linked with the County Council as well

James Smith · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
Soooooo they've defaulted but ACL say they haven't kicked them out.

This is what confuses me (and I'm not trying to justify the move to Northampton because to be honest I don't agree with it). Any other landlord would give an eviction notice to kick them out but because ACL want the football club at the Ricoh they haven't done so.

No wonder everyone is so confused

The rent was very high and needed to come down, something that I think we all agree on. However SISU never made any serious attempts at getting that reduced, never entered into negotiations and instead just went on the rent boycott. From the Q&A session both parties had with the trust

SBT Website said:
6: Before April 2012 did CCFC ever approach ACL to change the licence or rental value?

ACL: In 2004 and 2005 a proposal was made by Sir Derek Higgs that there should be different base rents for each League with escalators that would relate attendance to payment. He was a shareholder and director of CCFC and a director of ACL. This proposition was rejected by the then Board of CCFC, as although the base rents for the lower Leagues would have resulted in a reduction on the agreed rent, the rent in the Premiership would have been higher. Since SISU bought the club there have been one or two light touch discussions with SISU but nothing that amounted to a serious proposition.

CCFC: Not sure of historic negotiations

http://www.skybluetrust.co.uk/index...ticle/227-full-version-of-qaa-to-acl-and-ccfc

Quite what a rent boycott was supposed to acheive that negotiations couldn't, other than piss off the landlords I don't know.

Warwickhunt · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
That makes a few things clearer. So basically they're trying to do a midnight flit but telling the world where they're going.

Another question, does anyone actually think the club/SISU/whoever it is will be granted planning permission for a new ground? Surely with having the Ricoh in the city it negates the need for another ground

Treenie I would be very wary of letting SISU or any associates near your club!!!

The Penguin · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
Another question, does anyone actually think the club/SISU/whoever it is will be granted planning permission for a new ground? Surely with having the Ricoh in the city it negates the need for another ground

Depends on the site, I guess. The speedway site at Brandon was rumoured, but as has been pointed out on here by several, it is located in such a place that any planning permission application could be tied up for years in appeals and challenges.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

Believe me, I am very very wary about the whole thing but I think the problem we (the cobblers fans) have is that we are not aware of the full extent of what is going on (whether our chairman is or not is something only he would know). We feel that we are getting the blame for a lot of things (and the ACL legal threat fuels this) and we are unaware of what the background of the whole thing is.

All we were aware of was that you had nowhere to play (for whatever reason) and asked us if you could use our ground. Next thing we know we're getting accused of stealing your club, stealing customers, etc. I'm just trying to get a bit of back ground to make a proper judgement.

spwaverley4916 · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
But don't they all come under Warwickshire County Council or are none of your major planning decisions linked with the County Council as well

possibly might come under that body for major developments - but this wont be a major develoement like the Ricoh , smaller ground stood on its own. At a push SISU could apply to Leicestershire and build in Hinkley (although the town have ground).
the Coventry Speedway Team (Bees) stadium is actually in the Rugby Borough - so if they bought that, which has been rumoured, how much planning planning would that req?

stear clear of these bastards - they will have some affect on the cobblers - ( which is quite an apt name for these people)

spwaverley4916 · Jul 15, 2013

[All we were aware of was that you had nowhere to play (for whatever reason) and asked us if you could use our ground. Next thing we know we're getting accused of stealing your club, stealing customers, etc. I'm just trying to get a bit of back ground to make a proper judgement.[/QUOTE]

we have somewhere to Play - The Ricoh - its just that all parties involved are acting like kids (IMO)

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

I would still think it's classed as a major development because of the infrastructure surrounding it (parking, roads etc).

I would think for the Coventry speedway stadium a change of use would be required but if there is the infrastructure there already that will cut out a lot of it.

WiganSkyBlue · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
Believe me, I am very very wary about the whole thing but I think the problem we (the cobblers fans) have is that we are not aware of the full extent of what is going on (whether our chairman is or not is something only he would know). We feel that we are getting the blame for a lot of things (and the ACL legal threat fuels this) and we are unaware of what the background of the whole thing is.

All we were aware of was that you had nowhere to play (for whatever reason) and asked us if you could use our ground. Next thing we know we're getting accused of stealing your club, stealing customers, etc. I'm just trying to get a bit of back ground to make a proper judgement.

Also be aware that SISU is seeking a Judicial Review on the City Council providing a mortgage to ACL. As Northampton Council is putting in public money to assist a renovation of your ground (so we are told) if your football club pisses off our owners don't be surprised if this is used as some sort of lever to get their own way.

Be Wary ..................................... be very wary!!!

James Smith · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
I would still think it's classed as a major development because of the infrastructure surrounding it (parking, roads etc).

I would think for the Coventry speedway stadium a change of use would be required but if there is the infrastructure there already that will cut out a lot of it.

The roads would need improving/widening for starters to use Brandon and I doubt that's going to happen.

speedie87 · Jul 15, 2013

I spoke to a cobblers fan who thought they were doing us a favour by givin us somewhere to play so we can stay in the league. When I briefly explained the situation he said I see why you are all so upset now we aren't doing a favour we are making things worse!

Seyeclops666 · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
But don't they all come under Warwickshire County Council or are none of your major planning decisions linked with the County Council as well

Thanks for some thoughtful questions - nice that you are trying to ascertain the facts.

Planning permission lies with the District Council in all two-tier areas (ie those with a county council and district councils). However the likelihood of a district council in Warwickshire giving planning permission for a 20K seater stadium et al is almost non-existant - I spoke to many of the District Leaders at the recent Local Government Association Conference and none of them could ever see it getting light of day and believed that they had all the tools to stop it being forced through!!

SISU want the Ricoh at a knock down price - but if they don't get it I would be frightened if I were Northampton Town. This all has a long way to go yet!!

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

The money we're getting from the Council is linked into the development for the Enterprise zone which is taking place in Northampton at the moment. It is a huge regeneration which includes moving the university to just outside the town centre, the redevelopment of the train station and renovation of both our ground and the rugby ground (they have been loaned £5 million).

Seyeclops666 · Jul 15, 2013

lordsummerisle said:
To be fair, Grimsby's ground has always been in Cleethorpes, though the same local authority I expect.

It is.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

Seyeclops666 said:
Thanks for some thoughtful questions - nice that you are trying to ascertain the facts.

Planning permission lies with the District Council in all two-tier areas (ie those with a county council and district councils). However the likelihood of a district council in Warwickshire giving planning permission for a 20K seater stadium et al is almost non-existant - I spoke to many of the District Leaders at the recent Local Government Association Conference and none of them could ever see it getting light of day and believed that they had all the tools to stop it being forced through!!

SISU want the Ricoh at a knock down price - but if they don't get it I would be frightened if I were Northampton Town. This all has a long way to go yet!!

I can quite believe that. Northamptonshire have planning permission stopped all over the place (usually because the idiots that run [down] Northampton town centre think that any other business will take away trade from them)

RoboCCFC90 · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
Believe me, I am very very wary about the whole thing but I think the problem we (the cobblers fans) have is that we are not aware of the full extent of what is going on (whether our chairman is or not is something only he would know). We feel that we are getting the blame for a lot of things (and the ACL legal threat fuels this) and we are unaware of what the background of the whole thing is.

All we were aware of was that you had nowhere to play (for whatever reason) and asked us if you could use our ground. Next thing we know we're getting accused of stealing your club, stealing customers, etc. I'm just trying to get a bit of back ground to make a proper judgement.

There is so much that our own fans don't know that we can only speculate but I wish you luck.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

Indeed. I think both sets of fans are being treated like mushrooms.

wes_cov · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
Indeed. I think both sets of fans are being treated like mushrooms.

thats because were all Fungi's....

I'll get my coat....

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

I was thinking of the other analogy but yeah ok

shmmeee · Jul 15, 2013

lordsummerisle said:
ACL were the ones who refused to negotiate further with the club around January/February time I think, and have since refused to negotiate with the club except through the administrator. Which makes the Hoffman "non-offer" even more bizarre.

ACL don't need the club, they're just a millstone around the neck of the Stadium stopping it from making more money from concerts, exhibitions and other sporting clubs.

No.

If you read back it was Sisu that stopped negotiating after originally agreeing (or not, just shaking hands according o Fisher) to the £400k deal.

The administrator IS the club. Fisher and co, for all their bluster, were not CCFC between the club going into admin and Otium being selected.

ACLs position has been clear since day one: door is open, come have a chat (as long as you actually run the club).

The current confusion around the GS doesn't help at the moment.

Sky Blue Dal · Jul 15, 2013

Just say this Treenie ...

like us, your club has just taken the poison chalice .

dadgad · Jul 15, 2013

Treenie:

Great you have come here and impressed so far with the majority of answers you have been given.
Make no mistake Sisu are using you as an opportunity not to face up to their obligations.
The rent deal did need sorting but Sisu have walked away from negotiations.
ACL substantially reduced the rent - something they were not obliged to do - but Sisu reneged on the gentleman's agreement.
Also, IMHO, Sisu have zero intention or hope of getting PP for new stadium. Brandon is utterly unsuitable due to infrastructure and nimbyism. Not a hope in hell.
Sorry NTFC have been dragged into this. To retain the sanctity of your club you should be relieved if CCFC never host games at your ground.
Good luck

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

I can already see that.

I do wonder what sort of get out clauses we may have though (assuming that any agreement has actually been signed) . David Cardoza hasn't said much since the ACL threat which would make me think he's considering his next move.

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