Cobblers fan with questions (2 Viewers)

James Smith · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
I can already see that.

I do wonder what sort of get out clauses we may have though (assuming that any agreement has actually been signed) . David Cardoza hasn't said much since the ACL threat which would make me think he's considering his next move.

Sorry you've been dragged into this by our owners.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

So am I. I just hope that it gets sorted without us getting too much dragged much more into it though I can't see that happening unless the FL change their mind.

jesus-wept · Jul 15, 2013

There are a number of crucial issues Northampton Town supporters won't know and for some on here for some reason chose to forget. Yes it is true that eventuallt ACL pulled out of negotiations with SISU when re-negotiating the rent. There had been an agreement reached or so ACL thought, hands were shaken but within hours SISU's man and our c-e-o Tim Fisher pulled out of any deal. That is when ACL stopped talks, and who can blame them, from then positions have become entrenched culminating with being put into administration by our owners SISU not the company owed the rent, ACL.. Also you will be interested in is about 3 years ago SISU had the chance to buy 50% of the stadium for I believe £6.5 million and I believe an option at a later date to buy the rest, this was turned down by the SISU c.e.o here at the time (we have had many) even the present c.e.o, Tim Fisher at the forums we have just had was puzzled as to why that chance was turned down. Lots of things attached to this issue simply don't stack up and just why your chairman want's to get involved is crazy.

I am certain somewhere down the line this will cost you lot money, just why your chairman has got involved with this crowd is crazy IMO. SISU are absolutely unscrupulous and will do anything to get their plans through and that will include shafting you lot. I think in the long run this will cost your club money there's the court threat from ACL for damages, if ACL are successful there are others who could jump on that gravy train, caterers for one. There are all sorts of ideas from our fans how to obstruct and costing NTFC money is a main aim. Supporters of teams in your league will be asked to boycott your home games, just getting a 100 a game to back that would cost you £50k year and turning up unannounced at some of your home fixtures to protest peacefully which hopefully will bear a police cost, I think you club should think again to be honest.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

But a lot of those actions suggested will just cause us to go against you as you (the supporters) are hurting our club by proposing these actions.

Yes I agree that the ACL threat could open a whole can of worms if it goes through but for that to happen there has to be proof that our chairman has taken your club away. The way we are led to believe it is that we were asked for help. If this is the truth then we can't be seen as liable for any losses.

Also you can ask supporters from other teams to boycott our games but that doesn't mean they will and as some of the teams in our league only bring around 100 fans a game anyway I don't think it will be a big cost.

As has been mentioned a number of times, protesting at sixfields at the moment (and possibly in the future) will probably not achieve anything. You're not aiming your protests at the correct people and to be fair seeing the numbers from the last two protests at sixfields I don't think it will bear a huge police cost.

North_East_Cobbler · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
I can already see that.

I do wonder what sort of get out clauses we may have though (assuming that any agreement has actually been signed) . David Cardoza hasn't said much since the ACL threat which would make me think he's considering his next move.

Have you defected already Treenie?

Some very good answers here, thank you to all sensible Coventry supporters for taking the time to give your answers. I've come on here to find out a bit more about the REAL issues, as I'm sick of all of the Threats etc on the Cobblers forum!

I think someone hit the nail on the head in an earlier post. It sounds like the internal arguments at CCFC / SISU / ACL are the stuff of kids playgrounds. For Coventry's sake, I hope this all comes to an end one way or another.

As for DC contemplating his next move, I don't think it's his move next to be honest. He MUST have done all his legal checks etc, he's NOT a stupid guy, and he WILL have the best intentions for NTFC at heart.

In all honesty, I hope there is a loophole that gets NTFC out of this mess. It's one thing that CCFC have been treated badly (understatement) by SISU et al, and when we first said that we'd "help out" Coventry for a couple of years, I thought it might be a positive thing for NTFC. BUT, the more I hear about the goings on, I just think everyone is best leaving Coventry to fight it's own battle.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

No defection. Just trying to establish all the facts. We haven't been given the full story and that's what I'm trying to get. Like you I was sick of reading all the threats and pettiness on our own forum.

dongonzalos · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
No defection. Just trying to establish all the facts. We haven't been given the full story and that's what I'm trying to get. Like you I was sick of reading all the threats and pettiness on our own forum.

Now You have it.
Will you be able to get the message out there to your fellow fans

North_East_Cobbler · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
No defection. Just trying to establish all the facts. We haven't been given the full story and that's what I'm trying to get. Like you I was sick of reading all the threats and pettiness on our own forum.

Was only joking about the defection, don't worry. I must say, this forum does seem to paint the Coventry Supporters in a much more positive light than the ones who came to our forum.

I just read your other post, regarding the "demonstrations" at sixfields. Couldn't agree more. . . I posted last week that they're wasting their time with their placards on the Sixfields roundabouts. Much better off targeting SISU / ACL etc, and the Football League should definitely have a protest aimed at them. For our part in this, we haven't really done anything wrong (as far as I am aware). How the Football League sanctioned the move, I'll never know. At the time, I saw it as nothing more than a bit of extra income for NTFC. Now, I'm not so sure :facepalm:
:blue:

theferret · Jul 15, 2013

I'm curious as to why people always neglect to mention that it was ACL/council who pulled out of the deal (for which heads of terms had been agreed) in which SISU offered to buy into the Arena and to pay off ACLs outstanding mortgage (this has never really been disputed) - I'm not saying this was a good deal for ACL, but it was good enough that they had agreed to it before the council stepped in. I do not doubt for one minute that the subsequent shit-storm is entirely down to SISU, but you do wonder what would have happened had they not had the rug pulled from under their feet like that (well, we'd have a football club in Coventry for a start I guess).

dadgad · Jul 15, 2013

Treenie, You're doing the right thing and you sound well capable of drawing your own conclusions.
Your Chairman sounds as though - on the face of it - to have made a fiscal decision that will help NTFC.
Just hope he's factored all the negative fallout from his decision.
I predict that if NTFC host any CCFC games they will immediately regret it and grow to despise Sisu as much as Coventry does.
Sadly this will also split your own fans. A horrible consequence of having people who have no interest or empathy with the long term interests of a football club.
Moreover, nobody knows who they are.

North_East_Cobbler · Jul 15, 2013

dadgad said:
Treenie, You're doing the right thing and you sound well capable of drawing your own conclusions.
Your Chairman sounds as though - on the face of it - to have made a fiscal decision that will help NTFC.
Just hope he's factored all the negative fallout from his decision.
I predict that if NTFC host any CCFC games they will immediately regret it and grow to despise Sisu as much as Coventry does.
Sadly this will also split your own fans. A horrible consequence of having people who have no interest or empathy with the long term interests of a football club.
Moreover, nobody knows who they are.

I totally agree with you regarding our Chairman. I think he's seen an opportunity to help our finances along a little and help try to improve NTFC as a club. I don't, for one second, think that he has had anything other than the best interests of NTFC at heart. - HOWEVER, the more and more that I hear about this whole saga, the more I wonder whether he really has done the right thing for us (NTFC). He's done enough for us, over the years, to earn my trust and so I believe that he has sought the necessary legal advice to not leave us in a position where we're going to lose out legally, but I AM concerned at the amount of negative press that we're getting from various quarters, which could to us losing out in other ways!

James Smith · Jul 15, 2013

theferret said:
I'm curious as to why people always neglect to mention that it was ACL/council who pulled out of the deal (for which heads of terms had been agreed) in which SISU offered to buy into the Arena and to pay off ACLs outstanding mortgage (this has never really been disputed) - I'm not saying this was a good deal for ACL, but it was good enough that they had agreed to it before the council stepped in. I do not doubt for one minute that the subsequent shit-storm is entirely down to SISU, but you do wonder what would have happened had they not had the rug pulled from under their feet like that (well, we'd have a football club in Coventry for a start I guess).

I don't neglect to mention it, I'm just waiting for the second Young Timothy provides proof that there was a deal to distress/buy the debt with ACL/the council, to become a believer, until then I remain sceptical. I believe he said it just not sure whether it's true or not - so roll on the judicial review and we can get all the dirty laundry aired.

WiganSkyBlue · Jul 15, 2013

theferret said:
I'm curious as to why people always neglect to mention that it was ACL/council who pulled out of the deal (for which heads of terms had been agreed) in which SISU offered to buy into the Arena and to pay off ACLs outstanding mortgage (this has never really been disputed) - I'm not saying this was a good deal for ACL, but it was good enough that they had agreed to it before the council stepped in. I do not doubt for one minute that the subsequent shit-storm is entirely down to SISU, but you do wonder what would have happened had they not had the rug pulled from under their feet like that (well, we'd have a football club in Coventry for a start I guess).

Good point - except it was SISU, in the form of TF, that reneged and walked away.

theferret · Jul 15, 2013

WiganSkyBlue said:
Good point - except it was SISU, in the form of TF, that reneged and walked away.

They reneged on the revised rent deal - I think that is an indisputable fact; but it was ACL who reneged on, what we are told, was an agreement for SISU to effectively buy them out and payoff the outstanding mortgage with the bank. It was at this point that the council waded in with their bail out.

Like James Smith says though - this will all come out at the judicial review. More mud-slinging and finger pointing. Can't wait for that

James Smith · Jul 15, 2013

theferret said:
They reneged on the revised rent deal - I think that is an indisputable fact; but it was ACL who reneged on, what we are told, was an agreement for SISU to effectively buy them out and payoff the outstanding mortgage with the bank. It was at this point that the council waded in with their bail out.

Like James Smith says though - this will all come out at the judicial review. More mud-slinging and finger pointing. Can't wait for that

At least everyone then will have to prove things to the satisfaction of the court, which may be very interesting on both sides :thinking about:.

jesus-wept · Jul 15, 2013

The ACL man PHKW has been on this site numerous times and explained in detail about that meeting when hands were shook and then Fisher renaged on the deal, been on radio too. Was he lying ? Fisher was asked directly at the forums why when sisu had the chance to buy into the Ricoh they turned it down, he couldn't answer and even stated he couldn't understand why.

wingy · Jul 15, 2013

theferret said:
I'm curious as to why people always neglect to mention that it was ACL/council who pulled out of the deal (for which heads of terms had been agreed) in which SISU offered to buy into the Arena and to pay off ACLs outstanding mortgage (this has never really been disputed) - I'm not saying this was a good deal for ACL, but it was good enough that they had agreed to it before the council stepped in. I do not doubt for one minute that the subsequent shit-storm is entirely down to SISU, but you do wonder what would have happened had they not had the rug pulled from under their feet like that (well, we'd have a football club in Coventry for a start I guess).

There is a possibility that he ahs also taken this route through common Ideology ,although I don't know his background ,but he may be maverick in style or other.

The reality /is that other /clubs in the midlands had seen SISU as some sort of Pariah ,unfortunately not in your chairmans eyes.

RPHunt · Jul 15, 2013

James Smith said:
At least everyone then will have to prove things to the satisfaction of the court, which may be very interesting on both sides :thinking about:.

At the moment, nothing has to be proved to the satisfaction of a court.

A request has been made for a judicial review of the council's decision to take on the ACL loan. At this stage, a judge will decide if the request has any merit based on the papers that were lodged with the request. A copy of these papers is available to anyone with an interest and the court fee.

If there is a "smoking gun" in the form of an agreement by ACL to sell to SISU, then it has, so far, been overlooked by those who have obtained a copy of the papers.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

So the judicial review is regarding money from the council paid to ccfc?

James Smith · Jul 15, 2013

RPHunt said:
At the moment, nothing has to be proved to the satisfaction of a court.

A request has been made for a judicial review of the council's decision to take on the ACL loan. At this stage, a judge will decide if the request has any merit based on the papers that were lodged with the request. A copy of these papers is available to anyone with an interest and the court fee.

If there is a "smoking gun" in the form of an agreement by ACL to sell to SISU, then it has, so far, been overlooked by those who have obtained a copy of the papers.

I defer to your greater knowledge of the courts.

Nick · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
So the judicial review is regarding money from the council paid to ccfc?

Council to ACL I think.

RoboCCFC90 · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
So the judicial review is regarding money from the council paid to ccfc?

No the council borrowed £14Mil to ACL to repay it's loan to Yorkshire Bank. It was rumoured that SISU would sweep in and pick the stadium up on the cheap.

RPHunt · Jul 15, 2013

James Smith said:
I defer to your greater knowledge of the courts.

Not mine, a close relative's.

lordsummerisle · Jul 15, 2013

shmmeee said:
No.

If you read back it was Sisu that stopped negotiating after originally agreeing (or not, just shaking hands according o Fisher) to the £400k deal.

The administrator IS the club. Fisher and co, for all their bluster, were not CCFC between the club going into admin and Otium being selected.

ACLs position has been clear since day one: door is open, come have a chat (as long as you actually run the club).

The current confusion around the GS doesn't help at the moment.

No, if you read back to the Q @ A that the Trust had with both ACL and the club, ACL stated that it was their final offer and there would be no more negotiation.

"

30: Are ACL willing to be bound by an agreement brokered by independent mediators or arbitrator?

ACL: No. We have put our best and final offer on the table after months of negotiation with both SISU and CCFC. It was a reasonable and generous offer, as recognised by all 3 CCFC directors in attendance on 29 January 2013, as they verbally accepted it and shook hands in confirmation. We are not prepared to make further concessions, nor do we believe that any mediator could reasonably expect that we would. The ball is in CCFC’s court. Negotiations are now at an end, and the Board of CCFC have been duly notified. "

ACL's position has been as clear a mud from day one.

James Smith · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
So the judicial review is regarding money from the council paid to ccfc?

That rent boycott is believed by many to be an attempt to distress ACL and then pick up ACL cheaply out of administration. Sisu alleged that they had a deal with the council and were going to do this with their consent and Tim has claimed he has signed proof of this (the smoking gun papers). However the council stepped in and refinanced ACL by buying the mortgage of the bank and thus scuppering the alleged distress ACL plan. Sisu unhappy about this and started the attempt at JR.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

RoboCCFC90 said:
No the council borrowed £14Mil to ACL to repay it's loan to Yorkshire Bank. It was rumoured that SISU would sweep in and pick the stadium up on the cheap.

Ok that clears that up then. I've seen a few people say on here about our loan from the council being the same and the risk of another judicial review but they are completely different. Ours is for a specific purpose and linked into the current regeneration of the area and not to pay off another loan

duffer · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
Ok that clears that up then. I've seen a few people say on here about our loan from the council being the same and the risk of another judicial review but they are completely different. Ours is for a specific purpose and linked into the current regeneration of the area and not to pay off another loan

Yep, personally speaking I don't think our Judicial Review would relate to your situation. There are substantial doubts that SISU's JR will necessarily succeed in any case.

If you were looking at this purely from in terms of self-interest (and you weren't overly concerned about the state of your pitch), then you probably could make a case that this makes short-term financial sense for you.

However, in the medium to long term, if our owners can do this to us then your owners can do the same to you. In which case even narrow self-interest suggests that you might not want to support this as an ordinary NTFC fan. No one at this end saw this coming when SISU arrived, and if football is moving to a de facto franchise model then Northampton might be quite tempting to someone, I'd suggest.

Regardless if, as I suspect, you're actually looking at the this from a bigger perspective then I'd say that for the good of football you should urge your chairman to think again. A substantial majority of CCFC fans want to stay at the Ricoh, and if NTFC isn't available to our owners as an escape route, they will have to think again. I would say that most (though not all) CCFC fans do not want this deal with NTFC and we would welcome support from our fellow fans over there.

wingy · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
Ok that clears that up then. I've seen a few people say on here about our loan from the council being the same and the risk of another judicial review but they are completely different. Ours is for a specific purpose and linked into the current regeneration of the area and not to pay off another loan

As I said earlier either in this thread or another ,The Initial loan during construction from CCC Guaranteed completion . After Completion the ACL management Company had use of the Stadium on an Rental basis ,that suggests the Council would have left their financial input as was ,however ACL took the loan to buy a fifty year lease and clear the Council debt ,so really all that's happened is they've reverted to the original setup

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

Completely agree with everything you've said.

My aim was to come on here and get more background than we'd been given.

I'm still unsure what we're going to gain from this.

WiganSkyBlue · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
Completely agree with everything you've said.

My aim was to come on here and get more background than we'd been given.

I'm still unsure what we're going to gain from this.

the real possibility of heaps and heaps of trouble, particularly if you don't play ball with our owners

skybluehugh · Jul 15, 2013

James Smith said:
That rent boycott is believed by many to be an attempt to distress ACL and then pick up ACL cheaply out of administration. Sisu alleged that they had a deal with the council and were going to do this with their consent and Tim has claimed he has signed proof of this (the smoking gun papers). However the council stepped in and refinanced ACL by buying the mortgage of the bank and thus scuppering the alleged distress ACL plan. Sisu unhappy about this and started the attempt at JR.

I have to say IMHO, if fisher the clown had this bit of paper it would be all over the front page of the CT. it would be one massive way of getting fans to believe that the ground share WAS ACL's fault. And also he has used so much bull**** that if he had the genuine article he would use it.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

So who do we have an agreement with (if it has been done)?

James Smith · Jul 15, 2013

treenie01 said:
So who do we have an agreement with (if it has been done)?

Probably Otium but could be Holdings on the papers but it's SISU behind the mask.

Sky Blues · Jul 15, 2013

North_East_Cobbler said:
Was only joking about the defection, don't worry. I must say, this forum does seem to paint the Coventry Supporters in a much more positive light than the ones who came to our forum.

I just read your other post, regarding the "demonstrations" at sixfields. Couldn't agree more. . . I posted last week that they're wasting their time with their placards on the Sixfields roundabouts. Much better off targeting SISU / ACL etc, and the Football League should definitely have a protest aimed at them. For our part in this, we haven't really done anything wrong (as far as I am aware). How the Football League sanctioned the move, I'll never know. At the time, I saw it as nothing more than a bit of extra income for NTFC. Now, I'm not so sure :facepalm:
:blue:

I went on The Hotel End around the time the deal was rumoured, but not announced (or struck?) to give some of this background info and suggest for Northampton's sake you might not want to get involved with Sisu, but last week those who posted were told they were trying to "scare" Northampton fans. I thought there was a sense of denial from Cobblers fans then and that they thought we were just saying these things to get the deal killed. I thought it was best to stay away and figured they would come to us when they were ready to seek answers. I see that is the case - so welcome!

While I can see merit in writing to David Cardoza, I do not hold with targeting Northampton as a club now. Whether Cobblers fans realise it or not yet, we now have a connection with Sisu in common and we would be better off doing what some excellent posts have done here and given details of what we know when asked. I'm sure Cobblers fans who have their ears and eyes open will soon come to realise where their best interests lie - but they're less likely to side with us if we have been targeting their football club.

treenie01 · Jul 15, 2013

I don't agree with all the posts on the hotel end all being pushed into one because it makes it so easy to miss things. It's like they've decided it's not that important

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