Commercial Suicide (1 Viewer)

Voice_of_Reason · Oct 17, 2013

As a now retired successful business man, having run my own companies for over 30 years, I cannot for the life of me understand Sisu Capital's wish to continue throwing investors money down the pan when a possibly cheaper alternative would be to re-negotiate with ACL. As an investor in stocks and shares myself, there is no way I would invest in Sisu Capital Ltd -- I find it strange that others do !
What exactly Sisu is hoping to achieve, as a business man, baffles me ! Had my company been losing money each week hand over fist and there was a way I could stem these loses and increase my customer base, I would be negotiating like crazy to do so.
To me, Sisu is committing commercial suicide - and I can't think why !

dadgad · Oct 17, 2013

Agh, yes VoR, you ain't the first t say this and you won't be the last.
Maybe in a portfolio of businesses it pays t have a loss maker for offsetting against profits elsewhere.....to reduce other liabilities, tax burden, and the like?

Monners · Oct 17, 2013

But as your user name suggests, you are resonable type with common sense. Don't try and get into their mindset, it may harm you. Anybody who is not as close to it as us fans thinks it total madness - the look on peoples faces when i have tried to explain the history and our current plight look at me as if i am taking the pee.

mds · Oct 17, 2013

If you take into account their claims that the club owes them 60m or they have invested 60m (dont go over old ground), whichever way you want to look at it they are stuck for a lot of money, short term from now losses, long term gain. It makes sense to me to keep it going at a small loss each year if in the end they could see a significant chunk of their investment/debt being paid back, so there at small figure losses a year (low mills), if in five years time they can predict getting a large amount of their what will be close to 100m (new gound and all) investment back then its just down to economics, lose 60-70 now or get that down to as low as possible over the coming years.

I think when they get to the point they can see no way of getting anything close to their large losses back they will off like a shot, that may be Monday it may be next year it may be we are stuck with them for the forseeable future!

cw36 · Oct 17, 2013

Everything apart from the playing side re our Club is a nightmare at the moment.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Oct 17, 2013

mds said:
If you take into account their claims that the club owes them 60m or they have invested 60m (dont go over old ground), whichever way you want to look at it they are stuck for a lot of money, short term from now losses, long term gain. It makes sense to me to keep it going at a small loss each year if in the end they could see a significant chunk of their investment/debt being paid back, so there at small figure losses a year (low mills), if in five years time they can predict getting a large amount of their what will be close to 100m (new gound and all) investment back then its just down to economics, lose 60-70 now or get that down to as low as possible over the coming years.

I think when they get to the point they can see no way of getting anything close to their large losses back they will off like a shot, that may be Monday it may be next year it may be we are stuck with them for the forseeable future!

The 'old ground' bit is a key element tough, surely?

Has anyone ever seen a candid beak-down of this much fabled sum? It's frankly incredulous. It would equate to a loss, year on year, in double digits of millions of pounds. In some seasons, a loss in excess of entire turnover. Just think through the perversity of that relationship. Let alone addressing the conduct of the directors of any business operating in such a way.

The the value of their 'true' investment is lower; say £20m there or thereabouts, it makes their continued lingering more puzzling, as the OP suggests; as year-on-year losses from this point onward would be in the region of 10 to 20% of accrued losses to date. Which does smack of good money after bad. Unless there's something they're holding out for... :thinking about:

RPHunt · Oct 17, 2013

mds said:
It makes sense to me to keep it going at a small loss each year if in the end they could see a significant chunk of their investment/debt being paid back, so there at small figure losses a year (low mills), if in five years time they can predict getting a large amount of their what will be close to 100m (new gound and all) investment back then its just down to economics, lose 60-70 now or get that down to as low as possible over the coming years.

If, and it's a big IF, they can keep the club in this division for the next 5 years and build a new ground, do you seriously think anyone will be daft enough to pay £100m for the club?

The going rate for a League 1 side with a 10k-12k ground is likely to be nearer £10m than £100m.

bigfatronssba · Oct 17, 2013

RPHunt said:
If, and it's a big IF, they can keep the club in this division for the next 5 years and build a new ground, do you seriously think anyone will be daft enough to pay £100m for the club?

The going rate for a League 1 side with a 10k-12k ground is likely to be nearer £10m than £100m.

Also by that time it will be generally accepted that we have the support levels of a Conference team.

Steve.B50 · Oct 17, 2013

Voice_of_Reason said:
As a now retired successful business man, having run my own companies for over 30 years, I cannot for the life of me understand Sisu Capital's wish to continue throwing investors money down the pan when a possibly cheaper alternative would be to re-negotiate with ACL. As an investor in stocks and shares myself, there is no way I would invest in Sisu Capital Ltd -- I find it strange that others do !
What exactly Sisu is hoping to achieve, as a business man, baffles me ! Had my company been losing money each week hand over fist and there was a way I could stem these loses and increase my customer base, I would be negotiating like crazy to do so.
To me, Sisu is committing commercial suicide - and I can't think why !

I must agree with you, if my business was being run this way I would be long gone by now.

mds · Oct 17, 2013

MMM said:
Has anyone ever seen a candid beak-down of this much fabled sum? It's frankly incredulous.

So untill someone shows this a being fiction we have to accept that it is what it is! Just too much to turn their back on!

RPHunt said:
If, and it's a big IF, they can keep the club in this division for the next 5 years and build a new ground, do you seriously think anyone will be daft enough to pay £100m for the club?

I didnt mention anyone paying close to 100m that would be close to what they will have invested!
Why keep the club in this division, why not accept we may be turning a corner on the field and be on the up!

RPHunt said:
The going rate for a League 1 side with a 10k-12k ground is likely to be nearer £10m than £100m.

They have a long term plan, if it all goes well we may be in the championship, maybe higher, and values will increase significantly with that! When they get to the point they can see no way of getting anything close to their large losses back they will off like a shot.

covcity4life · Oct 17, 2013

put this in a email to someone VOR

lewys33 · Oct 17, 2013

mds said:
The going rate for a League 1 side with a 10k-12k ground is likely to be nearer £10m than £100m.

They have a long term plan, if it all goes well we may be in the championship, maybe higher, and values will increase significantly with that! When they get to the point they can see no way of getting anything close to their large losses back they will off like a shot.

valiant15 · Oct 17, 2013

Come on lads whats not to be happy about? We can remain an average league 1 team for the next50 years just as long as sisu can recoup their imaginary 60 million investment.

AndreasB · Oct 17, 2013

Yep, they got in a mess and got stitched up as well - If it WAS your business you would have pulled the plug and liquidated way before now. It is to SISUs credit that they are struggling on.

bigfatronssba · Oct 17, 2013

AndreasB said:
Yep, they got in a mess and got stitched up as well - If it WAS your business you would have pulled the plug and liquidated way before now. It is to SISUs credit that they are struggling on.

Is it really to their credit?

They sort of remind me of WW1 generals. Sending the men over the top to be slaughtered each time, yet patting themselves on the back because they've stuck to their guns.

Real bravery comes from knowing when your beat and admitting to yourself that your wrong.

mds · Oct 17, 2013

lewys33 said:

Im an optimist, I like to think there may be a slim chance we could turn all the hardships round, so you dont think there is any chance we may get promoted?
No chance of anything good for the club, we have been surrounded by negativity and shite for over a decade, maybe the tide is about to turn!

Dhinsa's_Millions · Oct 17, 2013

valiant15 said:
Come on lads whats not to be happy about? We can remain an average league 1 team for the next50 years just as long as sisu can recoup their imaginary 60 million investment.

Average League 1 will not be viable with an average gate of 2000 for 5 years with the 60% FFP rules if they apply them in the same way as everyone else - I think average conference / Lower League 2 is likely! Unless we keep producing an amazing academy for the next 5 years we can kiss League 1 good bye don't you think?

James Smith · Oct 17, 2013

mds said:
how do you reply with multiple post quotes? dont kow how to gather multiple quotes.

Well you can copy and paste the text in between [NOPARSE][/NOPARSE] tags. Look for the speech bubble in the menu bar of the post and either click that and paste your text in between or highlight the text in your post and click the button. If you include an equals sign and the persons screen name like this:

[NOPARSE]

James Smith said:
This is a test

[/NOPARSE] it will look like this:

James Smith said:
This is a test

when posted.

So

James Smith said:
This is a test

and then

James Smith said:
This is another test

can be posted.

That's the quick and easy way.

mds · Oct 17, 2013

Cheers James!

sky blue john · Oct 17, 2013

AndreasB said:
Yep, they got in a mess and got stitched up as well - If it WAS your business you would have pulled the plug and liquidated way before now. It is to SISUs credit that they are struggling on.

Yes i credit Sisu with us playing football 35 miles from where we should in a league lower than we should !!!!!

valiant15 · Oct 17, 2013

Dhinsa's_Millions said:
Average League 1 will not be viable with an average gate of 2000 for 5 years with the 60% FFP rules if they apply them in the same way as everyone else - I think average conference / Lower League 2 is likely! Unless we keep producing an amazing academy for the next 5 years we can kiss League 1 good bye don't you think?

I forgot about ffp.

I agree 100%

valiant15 · Oct 17, 2013

mds said:
Im an optimist, I like to think there may be a slim chance we could turn all the hardships round, so you dont think there is any chance we may get promoted?
No chance of anything good for the club, we have been surrounded by negativity and shite for over a decade, maybe the tide is about to turn!

How will we get promoted next seasonwwhen ffp kicks in?

mds · Oct 17, 2013

valiant15 said:
How will we get promoted next seasonwwhen ffp kicks in?

With a commited manager and team performing well, most importantly, finishing in the top 2 or winning the play off final!

Dhinsa's_Millions · Oct 17, 2013

valiant15 said:
I forgot about ffp.

I agree 100%

It wasn't supposed to sound so doom and gloom - IMO Its a realistic prospect - Lower League 2 Budget = Lower League 2 (maybe conference)! From this data below the average attendance for the conference so far this season is 1825.We are getting around 2000.

Place	Team	Played	Average Attendance
1	Hyde (24)	8	557
2	Luton Town (3)	8	6453
3	Forest Green Rovers (14)	7	1200
4	Grimsby Town (8)	7	3429
5	Kidderminster Harriers (2)	7	2123
6	Barnet (9)	7	1779
7	Cambridge United (1)	7	2995
8	Aldershot Town (23)	8	2190
9	Lincoln City (10)	8	2434
10	Wrexham (18)	7	3531
11	Macclesfield Town (15)	7	1384
12	Hereford United (16)	7	1806
13	Nuneaton Town (5)	8	1259
14	Dartford (20)	7	1103
15	Chester (22)	8	2339
16	Halifax Town (12)	8	1521
17	Woking (21)	8	1495
18	Southport (17)	7	1083
19	Braintree Town (7)	7	1038
20	Tamworth (19)	7	969
21	Salisbury (4)	8	926
22	Welling United (6)	8	820
23	Gateshead FC (11)	8	704
24	Alfreton Town (13)	8	674

This worries me!

Sky Blues · Oct 17, 2013

mds said:
So untill someone shows this a being fiction we have to accept that it is what it is! Just too much to turn their back on!

This was OSB's response when I asked if he could estimate how much real cash Sisu had put into Coventry City:

oldskyblue58 said:
It was stated in accoounts at around 32m in total invested in SBS&L at 31/05/11 including 2m from ARVO. From what I can see not all of that had gone into CCFC because some of it had been used to purchase and fund Prozone. Plus I believe it also included approx £6m as debts to be paid to GR & MM that never got paid. There would also be the £1m "paid" for the option on the shares in ACL - the option could not be transferred or sold from CCFC Ltd and had no value stated in the ccfc ltd accounts - so my guess is SISU introduced it at their own valuation as part of the takeover which would have increased the debt they were owed. In terms of hard cash as at 31/05/11 less than £30m certainly, possibly less than £25m

Still a sizeable sum to most people but nothing like the amount "owed" by CCFC ltd at 31/05/11 - £52m or the amount stated since

valiant15 · Oct 17, 2013

You're having a laugh mate. Based on gates of 2k paying 16 quid this season the turnover isnt even 800k, with pie sales and merchandise put it up to a generous 1 mill.

It doesn't leave a lot does it?

valiant15 · Oct 17, 2013

Dhinsa's_Millions said:
It wasn't supposed to sound so doom and gloom - IMO Its a realistic prospect - Lower League 2 Budget = Lower League 2 (maybe conference)! From this data below the average attendance for the conference so far this season is 1825.We are getting around 2000.

Place
Team
Played
Average Attendance

1
Hyde (24)
8
557

2
Luton Town (3)
8
6453

3
Forest Green Rovers (14)
7
1200

4
Grimsby Town (8)
7
3429

5
Kidderminster Harriers (2)
7
2123

6
Barnet (9)
7
1779

7
Cambridge United (1)
7
2995

8
Aldershot Town (23)
8
2190

9
Lincoln City (10)
8
2434

10
Wrexham (18)
7
3531

11
Macclesfield Town (15)
7
1384

12
Hereford United (16)
7
1806

13
Nuneaton Town (5)
8
1259

14
Dartford (20)
7
1103

15
Chester (22)
8
2339

16
Halifax Town (12)
8
1521

17
Woking (21)
8
1495

18
Southport (17)
7
1083

19
Braintree Town (7)
7
1038

20
Tamworth (19)
7
969

21
Salisbury (4)
8
926

22
Welling United (6)
8
820

23
Gateshead FC (11)
8
704

24
Alfreton Town (13)
8
674

This worries me!

That makes shocking reading lol.

Some people however think we can get promoted next season. Does ffp include the wages of the manager and coaches?

Dhinsa's_Millions · Oct 17, 2013

valiant15 said:
That makes shocking reading lol.

Some people however think we can get promoted next season. Does ffp include the wages of the manager and coaches?

If we aspire to even have the same 'buying / spending power' as league 2 we also need to double our current gates as the average is 4456!!

The only caveat to these average gates is IF (massive IF) the football league apply the FFP rule of 60% to us, they may not but this would surely be unfair to other teams - at present there has been nothing announced to this effect.

League 2 below!

Place	Team	Played	Average Attendance
1	AFC Wimbledon (11)	6	4109
2	Portsmouth (15)	5	15947
3	Chesterfield (1)	5	6780
4	Burton (14)	6	2877
5	Northampton Town (23)	5	4083
6	Cheltenham Town (17)	5	3671
7	Oxford United (3)	6	6179
8	Exeter City (6)	6	4409
9	Hartlepool United (16)	5	3521
10	Bristol Rovers (20)	5	5681
11	Southend United (10)	5	5822
12	York City (18)	5	4209
13	Torquay United (22)	5	2846
14	Scunthorpe United (8)	5	3716
15	Plymouth Argyle (19)	6	7419
16	Accrington Stanley (24)	5	1788
17	Wycombe Wanderers (9)	6	3528
18	Mansfield Town (7)	6	3512
19	Rochdale (5)	6	3111
20	Bury (21)	6	3233
21	Morecambe (4)	5	1761
22	Dagenham & Redbridge (13)	6	1635
23	Newport (12)	5	4090
24	Fleetwood Town (2)	6	3024
		Average	4456

mds · Oct 17, 2013

Fighting Financial Fairplay. Legal challenges, see how it goes!
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/24333604

interesting read here! http://mattysfootythoughts.wordpres...ation-after-striani-launches-legal-challenge/

Will Financial Fair Play survive?
The European Commission process is ongoing, with a ruling expected in 2014. It is very likely for the case to eventually end up in the European Court of Justice, just like the Bosman ruling. Dupont is a very experienced and respected football lawyer. With Dupont on the legal team, it looks quite likely that Financial Fair Play will be torn up.

Dhinsa's_Millions · Oct 17, 2013

valiant15 said:
You're having a laugh mate. Based on gates of 2k paying 16 quid this season the turnover isnt even 800k, with pie sales and merchandise put it up to a generous 1 mill.

It doesn't leave a lot does it?

Take a look at this http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/financial-fair-play-explained.php

Looks like UEFA are the ones introducing this although I'm sure clubs will try to get ways round it.

skybluefred · Oct 17, 2013

AndreasB said:
Yep, they got in a mess and got stitched up as well - If it WAS your business you would have pulled the plug and liquidated way before now. It is to SISUs credit that they are struggling on.

The number one candidate for laugh of the year.

AndreasB · Oct 17, 2013

skybluefred said:
The number one candidate for laugh of the year.

why?

DazzleTommyDazzle · Oct 17, 2013

AndreasB said:
why?

I guess because someone being in a hole and digging away for all they're worth, doesn't really seem that creditable.

Moff · Oct 17, 2013

valiant15 said:
How will we get promoted next seasonwwhen ffp kicks in?

I thought you wanted us to lose on Sunday so why are you bothered about getting promoted?

ohitsaidwalker king power · Oct 17, 2013

Voice_of_Reason said:
As a now retired successful business man, having run my own companies for over 30 years, I cannot for the life of me understand Sisu Capital's wish to continue throwing investors money down the pan when a possibly cheaper alternative would be to re-negotiate with ACL. As an investor in stocks and shares myself, there is no way I would invest in Sisu Capital Ltd -- I find it strange that others do !
What exactly Sisu is hoping to achieve, as a business man, baffles me ! Had my company been losing money each week hand over fist and there was a way I could stem these loses and increase my customer base, I would be negotiating like crazy to do so.
To me, Sisu is committing commercial suicide - and I can't think why !

Agree...madness.
Short term pain long term gain being the only possible motive; confirmed when Joy stated- 'we will come back to the ricoh- but only when the freehold to the stadium is ours'.
Its simple- they are using CCFC as a hostage pawn with the ransom demand the keys to the stadium.
:blue:

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