Could Otium (13 Viewers)

dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

Ever merge with Wasps. Not a take over but merger?

I am sure some would have issue with the the franchising aspect, but its happened and nothing is going to change that now.

Building a new stadium is ridiculous and will cripple us.

Many suggest getting half ACL won't be possible.

Could a merger happen?

mattylad · Nov 1, 2014

no but if we ever go bust they might pick up the pieces

Buster · Nov 1, 2014

The only way out of this mess

dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

I am starting to think it might be the only way out.
Wasps must know it is better for their business if a successful CCFC are at the Ricoh permanently.
It's just whether they could work with SISU.
Also have SISU accepted there are no other options

Grendel · Nov 1, 2014

Not a hope. Wasps themselves are a loss making business - we are a bigger loss making business with zero chance of making a return without levels of expenditure wasps wouldn't even dream of.

It would never be a merger either it would have to be a take over. Given their lack of interest in sporting location a far more likely scenario if they are still around in four years is to boot out CCFC and try and persuade someone else from any sport in as a business partner if they are likely to make more money for the invisible investors behind this deal.

Ian1779 · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Ever merge with Wasps. Not a take over but merger?

I am sure some would have issue with the the franchising aspect, but its happened and nothing is going to change that now.

Building a new stadium is ridiculous and will cripple us.

Many suggest getting half ACL won't be possible.

Could a merger happen?

Maybe they already have...

dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Not a hope. Wasps themselves are a loss making business - we are a bigger loss making business with zero chance of making a return without levels of expenditure wasps wouldn't even dream of.

It would never be a merger either it would have to be a take over. Given their lack of interest in sporting location a far more likely scenario if they are still around in four years is to boot out CCFC and try and persuade someone else from any sport in as a business partner if they are likely to make more money for the invisible investors behind this deal.

Thought wasps will have the highest revenue in prem rugby by moving to the Ricoh?

skybluetony176 · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Thought wasps will have the highest revenue in prem rugby by moving to the Ricoh?

It's already gained them a major sponsorship deal.

Grendel · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Thought wasps will have the highest revenue in prem rugby by moving to the Ricoh?

Will it? Why? And if it does why would that make a merger possible?

stupot07 · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Thought wasps will have the highest revenue in prem rugby by moving to the Ricoh?

They might have the highest turnover by moving to the Ricoh, but as we know the Ricoh hasn't been making that much profit (c£500k-£1m) which won't meet wasps £3m annual losses.

A lot will depend on how they manage the Ricoh and can they make a bigger success than ACL.

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dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Will it? Why? And if it does why would that make a merger possible?

I am sure that was stated when the deal was struck.
A merger would make them even richer if Coventry are cash flow positive.
Then can the access the same access to revenue as wasps. They then become more valuable as they are successful. As will the new merged company

dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

stupot07 said:
They might have the highest turnover by moving to the Ricoh, but as we know the Ricoh hasn't been making that much profit (c£500k-£1m) which won't meet wasps £3m annual losses.

A lot will depend on how they manage the Ricoh and can they make a bigger success than ACL.

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Yes I agree and would a merger with CCFC not help that?
Although I would imagine existing debts within CCFC would need to be isolated.

Grendel · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
I am sure that was stated when the deal was struck.
A merger would make them even richer if Coventry are cash flow positive.
Then can the access the same access to revenue as wasps. They then become more valuable as they are successful. As will the new merged company

You are confusing revenue and cash flow with profit. Wasps record financially is not good. CCFC and Sisu is worse. ACL is not good and one suspects at the end far worse than "not good".

dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

stupot07 said:
They might have the highest turnover by moving to the Ricoh, but as we know the Ricoh hasn't been making that much profit (c£500k-£1m) which won't meet wasps £3m annual losses.

A lot will depend on how they manage the Ricoh and can they make a bigger success than ACL.

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Yes stu turnover

The revenue from these facilities, combined with Wasps existing revenues, will result in Wasps immediately becoming the highest turnover rugby club in the Aviva Premiership.

stupot07 · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Yes stu turnover

The revenue from these facilities, combined with Wasps existing revenues, will result in Wasps immediately becoming the highest turnover rugby club in the Aviva Premiership.

I never said it wouldn't. But that doesn't mean they won't make losses.

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Grendel · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Yes stu turnover

The revenue from these facilities, combined with Wasps existing revenues, will result in Wasps immediately becoming the highest turnover rugby club in the Aviva Premiership.

But it still could lose far more money than many Premier League Clubs and merging with a debt ridden football club will hardly be attractive will it?

They will have enough on their plate turning a poorly run management company around (with zero experience) I would have thought.

dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

Grendel said:
You are confusing revenue and cash flow with profit. Wasps record financially is not good. CCFC and Sisu is worse. ACL is not good and one suspects at the end far worse than "not good".

Wasps have been running at three million loses prior to this move.
Surely though for it to succeed both sporting clubs commuting long term to the stadium is the best option to turn these loses around. In the future they play in alternative weeks leading to greater consistent income.
CCFC then get in on the sponsorship that wasps have drew as well. ( although CCFC would need to be successful in the the pitch to pull that off.

SISU isolate their debts then in future if all roséy clear some of their debts by selling the CCFC aspect of the consortium to someone else who wants in on the act.

dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

Grendel said:
But it still could lose far more money than many Premier League Clubs and merging with a debt ridden football club will hardly be attractive will it?

They will have enough on their plate turning a poorly run management company around (with zero experience) I would have thought.

I would hope that they keep the existing ACL staff and bring in an additional expert of their own.

Neutral Fan · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Ever merge with Wasps. Not a take over but merger?

I am sure some would have issue with the the franchising aspect, but its happened and nothing is going to change that now.

The franchise hasn't actually happened yet but I'm glad you're over it already.

Though you weren't quite so quick to get over the move to Northampton though? Will you be able to say ''it's happened'' if SISU franchise you to Brum or somewhere?

Or is franchising only bad if a team LEAVES your town but ok if it arrives?

stupot07 · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Wasps have been running at three million loses prior to this move.
Surely though for it to succeed both sporting clubs commuting long term to the stadium is the best option to turn these loses around. In the future they play in alternative weeks leading to greater consistent income.
CCFC then get in on the sponsorship that wasps have drew as well. ( although CCFC would need to be successful in the the pitch to pull that off.

SISU isolate their debts then in future if all roséy clear some of their debts by selling the CCFC aspect of the consortium to someone else who wants in on the act.

What you are suggesting is the clubs working in partnership not a merger.

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dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

Neutral Fan said:
The franchise hasn't actually happened yet but I'm glad you're over it already.

Though you weren't quite so quick to get over the move to Northampton though? Will you be able to say ''it's happened'' if SISU franchise you to Brum or somewhere?

Or is franchising only bad if a team LEAVES your town but ok if it arrives?

Why has the franchising not happened yet?
I don't agree with franchising the RFU should not allow it but they have not blocked it.
It has happened there is nothing I can do to stop it or you ( unless you are Ian Ritchie) and if you are then get your game in order!
So in light of the fact it has happened and we can't change it we now need to do the best for Cov. So a merger maybe the answer.
No I would not be happy if Cov moved elsewhere especially if it was completely unnecessary as was last time and it did more damage to us than the people it was trying to do damage to.

dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

stupot07 said:
What you are suggesting is the clubs working in partnership not a merger.

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No now we are working in partnership but that does not give CCFC access to the revenues and potentially the sponsorship deals.

Tonylinc · Nov 1, 2014

All this talk of revenue and other financial gains from the Ricoh is surely premature........bloody well make an offer Shitzu!!!! Due diligence and all the other other crap is just that CRAP. You know that a share in the stadium is priceless for your own ends so get on and just do it.

Tonylinc · Nov 1, 2014

Not that I ever wanted for them to have any share in the stadium but now accept that that is the only way in which we are going to rid ourselves of this scum.

mrtrench · Nov 1, 2014

I think it could happen. The key factor is Derek Richardson's ego.

stupot07 · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
No now we are working in partnership but that does not give CCFC access to the revenues and potentially the sponsorship deals.

If we buy Higgs 50% share we would be working in partnership and accessing revenues.

A merger is the legal constitution of 2 companies into one companies. Is this what you are suggesting? No more Wasps RFC Ltd (or whatever it's called, etc) and no more Sky Blues Sports & Leisure Ltd (etc) just one company 'Coventry Sports Venture Ltd', which run both the rugby and football operations. Is this what you are suggesting? What's 50% wasps is 50% ours, and what's 50% ours is 50% wasps? And if one if the sports operations makes a loss, they can share that 50:50 too.

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mgw747 · Nov 1, 2014

"we buy Higgs 50% share we would be working in partnership and accessing revenues."

Delusional, Higgs have just offered a legal nicety they will never sell to SISU too much bad blood. Against my instincts I partially with Grendel. Both clubs are losing money. At this point the Wasps consortium are only interested in the rent ccfc can pay. forget the rhetoric they will up the rent asap. Their plan seems quite business like, buy an asset, maximize revenue to make the business an ongoing profitable concern, ccfc is an economic basket case. They may offer to purchase it for £1 when SISU wish to cut and run.

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Jack Griffin · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Ever merge with Wasps. Not a take over but merger?

I am sure some would have issue with the the franchising aspect, but its happened and nothing is going to change that now.

Building a new stadium is ridiculous and will cripple us.

Many suggest getting half ACL won't be possible.

Could a merger happen?

No. Won't happen.

stupot07 · Nov 1, 2014

mgw747 said:
"we buy Higgs 50% share we would be working in partnership and accessing revenues."

Delusional, Higgs have just offered a legal nicety they will never sell to SISU too much bad blood. Against my instincts I partially with Grendel. Both clubs are losing money. At this point the Wasps consortium are only interested in the rent ccfc can pay. forget the rhetoric they will up the rent asap. Their plan seems quite business like, buy an asset, maximize revenue to make the business an ongoing profitable concern, ccfc is an economic basket case. They may offer to purchase it for £1 when SISU wish to cut and run.

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I'm not delusional, because like you I believe that Higgs are offering it to ccfc ltd to cross the t's and dot the i's. Higgs will sell to wasps regardless of what we offer. I was just point out there was a scenario in which they could be partners and get revenues.

Like you I believe wasps will want to make as much money out of us as possible, but without wanting to piss us off. So more of a milking than bleeding us dry.

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dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

stupot07 said:
If we buy Higgs 50% share we would be working in partnership and accessing revenues.

A merger is the legal constitution of 2 companies into one companies. Is this what you are suggesting? No more Wasps RFC Ltd (or whatever it's called, etc) and no more Sky Blues Sports & Leisure Ltd (etc) just one company 'Coventry Sports Venture Ltd', which run both the rugby and football operations. Is this what you are suggesting? What's 50% wasps is 50% ours, and what's 50% ours is 50% wasps? And if one if the sports operations makes a loss, they can share that 50:50 too.

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I would prefer CCFC to buy 50% but on here I am hearing that, that is not going to happen. So the next best thing for me is a merger with commercial conditions

dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
No. Won't happen.

Why?

dongonzalos · Nov 1, 2014

stupot07 said:
I'm not delusional, because like you I believe that Higgs are offering it to ccfc ltd to cross the t's and dot the i's. Higgs will sell to wasps regardless of what we offer. I was just point out there was a scenario in which they could be partners and get revenues.

Like you I believe wasps will want to make as much money out of us as possible, but without wanting to piss us off. So more of a milking than bleeding us dry.

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A merger achieves that or a takeover but I don't think SISU would accept the current market value for a takeover

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 1, 2014

stupot07 said:
I'm not delusional, because like you I believe that Higgs are offering it to ccfc ltd to cross the t's and dot the i's. Higgs will sell to wasps regardless of what we offer. I was just point out there was a scenario in which they could be partners and get revenues.

Like you I believe wasps will want to make as much money out of us as possible, but without wanting to piss us off. So more of a milking than bleeding us dry.

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So if we were to offer more for the share than Wasps Higgs would accept the smaller amount? Bearing in mind that would then give them more money for their charitable enterprises and with Wasps as the other tenant there is much less risk of SISU doing anything untoward with the stadium.

stupot07 · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
A merger achieves that or a takeover but I don't think SISU would accept the current market value for a takeover

Can you explain what you mean by merger? What you think it would look like and what the benefits to each side? I'm really struggle to see the benefits, as the business definition of a merger is what I wrote earlier - two business made into one business, there would be no separate ccfc or wasps just one business. How does that work? What happens if we get promoted and the football bit's income increases by £5m? Does the rugby side get half of that after all it's now one business? What happens if after all sharing of income the football part still has losses? As it's one company both sisu and wasp owners would need to be joint liable to fund that, after all they are no longer separate entities.

To me it just doesn't work. It can't work, one 'sports' arm of the business would need to take priority over the other.

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Jack Griffin · Nov 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Why?

Just my opinion of the realities of any business case.

If they ever cooperate long term at the Ricoh, either CCFC will be a tenant as now and running at or near break even or Wasps will take over CCFC after it goes through a catastrophic administration.

But I don't think much will change for a couple of years yet, if SISU announce a new stadium site somewhere before the end of this season (Joy has said she is hopeful of something before Xmas remember) then things change, but they've made statements about closing in on land deals many times & nothing concrete has happened.

Personally I think the real Xmas deadline is about the court case decision point & talk of a land deal is just a smokescreen, notice Joy mentioned nothing about the JR appeal in her recent PR statement that Les Reid got published for her.

At the end of the day its rather pointless spectating on outcomes over which we have no influence, we just have to wait for events to unfold.

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