Council admits Ricoh Arena was not sustainable without CCFC (18 Viewers)

chiefdave · Jan 16, 2015

Mark, If ACL had gone bust the lease would have reverted back to CCC and a fair sale process could have begun with all parties bidding for the same thing. Ideally the taxpayer would not lose money in such a scenario but if the taxpayer is to be put at risk of losing money there is absolutely no question that I would prefer that to be as a result of assisting CCFC rather than Wasps.

In an ideal world Lucas, PWKH and the other involved would have told the truth and their could have been a fair and open process.

italiahorse · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
Mark, If ACL had gone bust the lease would have reverted back to CCC and a fair sale process could have begun with all parties bidding for the same thing. Ideally the taxpayer would not lose money in such a scenario but if the taxpayer is to be put at risk of losing money there is absolutely no question that I would prefer that to be as a result of assisting CCFC rather than Wasps.

In an ideal world Lucas, PWKH and the other involved would have told the truth and their could have been a fair and open process.

... and if Wasps won the bidding that would be okay ?

Jack Griffin · Jan 16, 2015

mark_ccfc said:
Why do you always show that photo of Nick Eastwood that looks like he has just put his finger through the toilet paper?

To be fair they are always posting one of Timmy demonstrating the manouvre that you're suggesting put that expression on Eastwood's face.

Nick · Jan 16, 2015

Can we have appleton for the full house?

Astute · Jan 16, 2015

This has been one strange thread to read.

Our clubs future is fucked as it doesn't own it's own ground and the income that comes with it. But this ground was losing money as our club wasn't playing there????????? So how would it have suddenly made enough money to make a big difference with our club in place?

Or you have the other side of the argument where CCC are not guilty of anything except for misinformation?????? I would say that the hardball tactics from both sides failed badly. And nobody should be looking for excuses for any of them.

This 'We need to own our own ground' was never true. I saw it as an angle for them to try and get us behind their tactics. The problem was most if not all could see the damage that they were causing to our club whilst making their stupid attempt to get the arena on the cheap.

As I have said all along all we need is a cheap rent to pay. Extra income is a rare thing for stadiums where it would make a difference to the overall income. So this must mean that the vast majority of clubs are fucked for the long term future.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
Mark, If ACL had gone bust the lease would have reverted back to CCC and a fair sale process could have begun with all parties bidding for the same thing. Ideally the taxpayer would not lose money in such a scenario but if the taxpayer is to be put at risk of losing money there is absolutely no question that I would prefer that to be as a result of assisting CCFC rather than Wasps.

In an ideal world Lucas, PWKH and the other involved would have told the truth and their could have been a fair and open process.

How could all parties be bidding for the same thing, when CCC won't sell the freehold; and SISU will settle for nothing less (unencumbered freehold)

chiefdave · Jan 16, 2015

italiahorse said:
... and if Wasps won the bidding that would be okay ?

If there had been a fair and transparent process then, although I would be against Wasps moving here as I am against franchising and certainly wouldn't support them, then a fair fight would have been lost. I do feel that any process for inviting bids on ACL should not have just been based on the amount offered but should have taken into consideration other stakeholders, for example with Wasps CRFC should have been fully consulted. I would expect a bid that involved CCFC, or any other Coventry based side for that matter, to be given preference over anyone from outside of the city.

In fact I believe when the sale was announced Lucas claimed they had been only for CRFC to say they knew nothing about it.

chiefdave · Jan 16, 2015

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
How could all parties be bidding for the same thing, when CCC won't sell the freehold; and SISU will settle for nothing less (unencumbered freehold)

Its very simple MMM, I'm sure you can understand what I'm proposing here. CCC and Higgs say we are inviting bids for ACL, as part of the sale we will increase the lease to 250 giving effective ownership of the freehold. All bids must be received by this date following which a period of consultation with the people of Coventry and any organisations likely to be impacted will take place prior to the announcement of the winning bid. It's not really a difficult concept.

italiahorse · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
If there had been a fair and transparent process then, although I would be against Wasps moving here as I am against franchising and certainly wouldn't support them, then a fair fight would have been lost. I do feel that any process for inviting bids on ACL should not have just been based on the amount offered but should have taken into consideration other stakeholders, for example with Wasps CRFC should have been fully consulted. I would expect a bid that involved CCFC, or any other Coventry based side for that matter, to be given preference over anyone from outside of the city.

In fact I believe when the sale was announced Lucas claimed they had been only for CRFC to say they knew nothing about it.

Surely it would go to the highest bidder. ?

I think to be honest it would make no difference to your position on the situation.
All that would happen is a lot of businesses linked to ACL would be in trouble as well.
It's obvious to most that Wasps was the only way to go for the council.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
Its very simple MMM, I'm sure you can understand what I'm proposing here. CCC and Higgs say we are inviting bids for ACL, as part of the sale we will increase the lease to 250 giving effective ownership of the freehold. All bids must be received by this date following which a period of consultation with the people of Coventry and any organisations likely to be impacted will take place prior to the announcement of the winning bid. It's not really a difficult concept.

Wait there; so you're saying that the party who wanted Average League One rent, and then moved to unencumbered freehold or they'd build their own stadium actually wanted a long lease?

Sick Boy · Jan 16, 2015

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
When you have to revert to misrepresenting someone of telling lies, it's all a bit sad really

Straw clutching at its finest. You could teach Lucas a thing or two.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 16, 2015

Sick Boy said:
Straw clutching at its finest. You could teach Lucas a thing or two.

Okay; money where your mouth is; find one thread where I've been unconditionally gushing over Thorn.

I'll give £100 to Children In Need for every one you find, and post the receipt on here. Over to you.....

chiefdave · Jan 16, 2015

italiahorse said:
Surely it would go to the highest bidder. ?

I think to be honest it would make no difference to your position on the situation.
All that would happen is a lot of businesses linked to ACL would be in trouble as well.
It's obvious to most that Wasps was the only way to go for the council.

As a public body the council have some leeway to accept a bid that is in the best interests of the city over one that is simply higher. Of course that would depend on the actual values and proposals involved.

what businesses linked to ACL would be in trouble? The Ricoh would more than likely stay operational over any period of administration, effectively CCC would run ACL until it was sold, maybe not in name but in practice. Why is it obvious Wasps is the only way to go? The only reason I can think of is the councils refusal to be truthful or deal with SISU from a factually accurate position.

chiefdave · Jan 16, 2015

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Wait there; so you're saying that the party who wanted Average League One rent, and then moved to unencumbered freehold or they'd build their own stadium actually wanted a long lease?

The same old argument that SISU are 100% truthful but only when it suits the point you are trying to make.

skybluetony176 · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
If there had been a fair and transparent process then, although I would be against Wasps moving here as I am against franchising and certainly wouldn't support them, then a fair fight would have been lost. I do feel that any process for inviting bids on ACL should not have just been based on the amount offered but should have taken into consideration other stakeholders, for example with Wasps CRFC should have been fully consulted. I would expect a bid that involved CCFC, or any other Coventry based side for that matter, to be given preference over anyone from outside of the city.

In fact I believe when the sale was announced Lucas claimed they had been only for CRFC to say they knew nothing about it.

Didn't AL go on TV and invite any serious offer to come forward and it will be considered over 12 months ago?

italiahorse · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
As a public body the council have some leeway to accept a bid that is in the best interests of the city over one that is simply higher. Of course that would depend on the actual values and proposals involved.

Then Wasps would win.
I really think you have lost the plot on this.
It is just clutching at straws.

Grendel · Jan 16, 2015

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
He backed the wrong horse? Is that you who sat there for months spouting Average League One rents? Is that you who promised the Judicial Review smoking gun? Is that you who positively asserted SISU were the 'only game in town'? Is that you who scoffed at the idea of a rugby club playing at The Ricoh?

Are you Nick Lesson?

Average league rent is a valid concern for all genuine fans. The unfairness of the situation has always annoyed me.

I think you will find I always said the Review would be lost.

As for the only game in town and the rest of your little rant consider the context to which this was said. At the time the "offer" was £6 million pounds for a half share of a company still half owned by the council. If that was still the offer then my comment would of course be correct.

You look at probabilities whne making statements. I made a mistake regarding the council. I thought they would have at least acted with some consideration to the local community and given Anne Lucas and her principals regarding franchising I would naturally assume they would not actively chase a franchise opportunity. Also I assumed the ACL company was a profitable company as we had constant comments to that effect

However we now know all this to be a fallacy. A badly run company heading for skid row and a council that supports franchising in sport with an utter and complete disregard for the local community and its sporting heritage.

So I misjudged. I now see for duplicity, lies and public manipulation the Council make Joe Seppella look like Joan of Arc.

I guess it must make you proud.

italiahorse · Jan 16, 2015

grendel said:
average league rent is a valid concern for all genuine fans. The unfairness of the situation has always annoyed me.

I think you will find i always said the review would be lost.

As for the only game in town and the rest of your little rant consider the context to which this was said. At the time the "offer" was £6 million pounds for a half share of a company still half owned by the council. If that was still the offer then my comment would of course be correct.

You look at probabilities whne making statements. I made a mistake regarding the council. I thought they would have at least acted with some consideration to the local community and given anne lucas and her principals regarding franchising i would naturally assume they would not actively chase a franchise opportunity. Also i assumed the acl company was a profitable company as we had constant comments to that effect

however we now know all this to be a fallacy. A badly run company heading for skid row and a council that supports franchising in sport with an utter and complete disregard for the local community and its sporting heritage.

So i misjudged. I now see for duplicity, lies and public manipulation the council make joe seppella look like joan of arc.

I guess it must make you proud.

lmfho

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
The same old argument that SISU are 100% truthful but only when it suits the point you are trying to make.

But how can you negotiate with someone who has behaved as SISU has? You keep on eluding to the council playing the with a straight bat; but where in the spectrum from Average League One rents to unfettered freehold ownership was their real position? Why when they met with Higgs did they shake hands only then to renege? Why did the High Court judge conclude that they had 'no appetite' for a deal? Why when Seppela had the chance to throw in a competitive offering against Wasps did she stand back and declare '“We will not interfere with any deal between Wasps and Arena Coventry Limited regarding the Ricoh"? They have proven time and time again to be a party who have moved and shifted and seemingly behaved without candour; and all you can do is to criticise any party unable to cut a deal with them

stupot07 · Jan 16, 2015

italiahorse said:
Then Wasps would win.
I really think you have lost the plot on this.
It is just clutching at straws.

we don't know whether Wasps would win or not. We have no idea what the club would have offered in a transparent open bidding process.

stupot07 · Jan 16, 2015

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
But how can you negotiate with someone who has behaved as SISU has? You keep on eluding to the council playing the with a straight bat; but where in the spectrum from Average League One rents to unfettered freehold ownership was their real position? Why when they met with Higgs did they shake hands only then to renege? Why did the High Court judge conclude that they had 'no appetite' for a deal? Why when Seppela had the chance to throw in a competitive offering against Wasps did she stand back and declare '“We will not interfere with any deal between Wasps and Arena Coventry Limited regarding the Ricoh"? They have proven time and time again to be a party who have moved and shifted and seemingly behaved without candour; and all you can do is to criticise any party unable to cut a deal with them

GIFSoup

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 16, 2015

Grendel said:
So I misjudged. I now see for duplicity, lies and public manipulation the Council make Joe Seppella look like Joan of Arc.

I guess it must make you proud.

And to think that a lunatic like you was invited to join Nick's cosy meetings and air your view. Astonishing. Truly astonishing

italiahorse · Jan 16, 2015

stupot07 said:
we don't know whether Wasps would win or not. We have no idea what the club would have offered in a transparent open bidding process.

Really ?
Why did they not offer say £5M for Higgs share and push the issue ?

skybluetony176 · Jan 16, 2015

stupot07 said:
we don't know whether Wasps would win or not. We have no idea what the club would have offered in a transparent open bidding process.

I'll try asking you. Didn't AL go on TV and said that they would listen to any genuine offer for ACL?

DaleM · Jan 16, 2015

Nick said:
Can we have appleton for the full house?

No No No . Please NO.

Grendel · Jan 16, 2015

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
And to think that a lunatic like you was invited to join Nick's cosy meetings and air your view. Astonishing. Truly astonishing

Hedge Funds do not need a public conscience. They look after investors.

Your total lack of outrage at the councils antics in this sorry saga does you no credit whatsoever

chiefdave · Jan 16, 2015

skybluetony176 said:
Didn't AL go on TV and invite any serious offer to come forward and it will be considered over 12 months ago?

What I'm suggesting it that there was an open process. Clearly state what is for sale and invite bids with a bidding deadline. Thats very different from saying I will listen to anyone who happens to rock up. We don't even know if the club were ever told a 200 year lease extension was a possibility.

chiefdave · Jan 16, 2015

italiahorse said:
Then Wasps would win.
I really think you have lost the plot on this.
It is just clutching at straws.

So you've seen both Wasps and CCFC's non-existent bid to purchase ACL with a 250 year lease, interesting to know. Care to tell the rest of us what both contain and on what basis Wasps would win?

chiefdave · Jan 16, 2015

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
But how can you negotiate with someone who has behaved as SISU has? You keep on eluding to the council playing the with a straight bat; but where in the spectrum from Average League One rents to unfettered freehold ownership was their real position? Why when they met with Higgs did they shake hands only then to renege? Why did the High Court judge conclude that they had 'no appetite' for a deal? Why when Seppela had the chance to throw in a competitive offering against Wasps did she stand back and declare '“We will not interfere with any deal between Wasps and Arena Coventry Limited regarding the Ricoh"? They have proven time and time again to be a party who have moved and shifted and seemingly behaved without candour; and all you can do is to criticise any party unable to cut a deal with them

MMM I don't think you're a stupid person so I really don't know why you are finding this so hard to understand. Rewind to before talks of average rent, unfettered freehold ownership or anything else. Fisher claimed that the rent was too high - it was; he claimed ACL were not viable without CCFC - we have discovered this week it wasn't. Now imagine at that point CCC, instead of entering into a series of lies, say you're right lets have open and frank negotiations on that basis.

You also seem to conveniently ignore that one side is a public body who should act truthfully and responsibly. It seems to me that you are giving any actions of anyone but SISU a free pass due to your hatred of SISU.

Nick · Jan 16, 2015

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
And to think that a lunatic like you was invited to join Nick's cosy meetings and air your view. Astonishing. Truly astonishing

Cosy meetings? Do you know everyone who was at them all? You would really be shocked about some of them!

Oh and by the way, I was only asked in terms of one of over twenty I think it was. Not really mine.

Couldn't have done that many, don't think I could witness somebody drink tomato juice more than once in my life anyway.

Grendel · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
What I'm suggesting it that there was an open process. Clearly state what is for sale and invite bids with a bidding deadline. Thats very different from saying I will listen to anyone who happens to rock up. We don't even know if the club were ever told a 200 year lease extension was a possibility.

We also don't know if the council did not actively chase Wasps and offer the deal excursively. Lucas will hide behind her confidentiality clause and again you have to wonder which party insisted that this was done in Private.

Grendel · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
So you've seen both Wasps and CCFC's non-existent bid to purchase ACL with a 250 year lease, interesting to know. Care to tell the rest of us what both contain and on what basis Wasps would win?

Lol

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
MMM I don't think you're a stupid person so I really don't know why you are finding this so hard to understand. Rewind to before talks of average rent, unfettered freehold ownership or anything else. Fisher claimed that the rent was too high - it was; he claimed ACL were not viable without CCFC - we have discovered this week it wasn't. Now imagine at that point CCC, instead of entering into a series of lies, say you're right lets have open and frank negotiations on that basis.

You also seem to conveniently ignore that one side is a public body who should act truthfully and responsibly. It seems to me that you are giving any actions of anyone but SISU a free pass due to your hatred of SISU.

And I too am struggling to see why you are affording the owners of our football club the grace to think they actually wanted to do a deal at any time. They didn't. Time and time again, they didn't.

The rent was too high. Absolutely and certainly. What started first? The 'lies' you elude to from CCC, or the rent strike?

Grendel · Jan 16, 2015

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
And I too am struggling to see why you are affording the owners of our football club the grace to think they actually wanted to do a deal at any time. They didn't. Time and time again, they didn't.

The rent was too high. Absolutely and certainly. What started first? The 'lies' you elude to from CCC, or the rent strike?

Why have you put lies in inverted commas?

skybluetony176 · Jan 16, 2015

chiefdave said:
What I'm suggesting it that there was an open process. Clearly state what is for sale and invite bids with a bidding deadline. Thats very different from saying I will listen to anyone who happens to rock up. We don't even know if the club were ever told a 200 year lease extension was a possibility.

Isn't defining what's for sale and at what price what negotiations are for? The point I'm making is that after that invite what offer did SISU actually make?

Council admits Ricoh Arena was not sustainable without CCFC (18 Viewers)

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