Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Exactly the same tactics as previously, they must know this already.
This is just litigation to mire the other parties in a bog of court cases.
Exactly the same tactics as previously, they must know this already.That is the argument that SISU are trying to put over. But has no legal standing. The judge has certainly confirmed this.
So where would the money have come from considering ACL were losing money and heavily in debt already?Why would Higgs have put any more money in? It would have been ACL buying the lease extension not Higgs.
That is the argument that SISU are trying to put over. But has no legal standing. The judge has certainly confirmed this.
Which is what I said before we started today.Exactly the same tactics as previously, they must know this already.
This is just litigation to mire the other parties in a bog of court cases.
From what I gather the argument is over whether the lease extension was official before the sale.
I’m 99% it was negotiated before but I’m assuming the courts are saying “doesn’t matter there’s no proof or nothing official to say this” - which seems correct
Whilst SISUs argument is that essentially it was a deal - which is where I assume the new evidence would come in?
SISU saying whatever they have to more like to get another day in court.I don't think SISU will get anywhere, but wasn't the refusal of the council (or mixup, cant remember) about some paperwork and the fact it was agreed in the same meeting the reason the appeal got this far?
So why didn't they finalise it just before and charge Wasps millions more?
Is that not the argument that's being made?
The stadium was still unused. The value was so low because it was unused. When they moved in and we joined them the value shot up. If we leave the value will go down. It won't be because a few years of the lease will have gone.There is proof though, it's in the council minutes that they approved it before they sold it and before Higgs had even accepted a bid. If they hold off to sign the lease extension until Wasps have taken over surely that's still as shady?
If they had a council meeting saying "shall we sell" and then did the takeover then another to say "should we extend" after then surely it wouldn't have got this far as it would be seen as different transactions?
Have you never considered that CCC actually got more money by selling the two separate and the lease extension after the ACL sale than they would have if they’d paid to extend the lease then sell? I refer you back to my own experience. The previous owner didn’t extend the lease because it would have cost him more to do it than the value it would have added to the property. I did it because I knew that at the point I came to sell it the property would have been harder to sell as due to the length of the lease it would have become more difficult to mortgage. It didn’t really add any monetary value to the property.
But it wasn’t unused - ACL was purchased, ACL were still using events. ACLs value would benefit from a lease extensionThe stadium was still unused. The value was so low because it was unused. When they moved in and we joined them the value shot up. If we leave the value will go down. It won't be because a few years of the lease will have gone.
The stadium was still unused. The value was so low because it was unused. When they moved in and we joined them the value shot up. If we leave the value will go down. It won't be because a few years of the lease will have gone.
Yes and the court order from Lord Justice Irwin granting the appeal said the issue with the initial ruling was that they had been considered as two separate transactions for the purposes of valuation rather than one.It was done in the same council meeting wasn't it, before Higgs had even accepted a bid?
Yes and the court order from Lord Justice Irwin granting the appeal said the issue with the initial ruling was that they had been considered as two separate transactions for the purposes of valuation rather than one.
Key assertion
Mr Thompson said: “We say the council admits it didn’t obtain a market valuation of the leasehold interest.”
“It appears to me at least arguable that, if the interrelated transactions fail to be considered together, then it may have been an error to liken the lease extension to the grant of a freehold interest, and, if so, the basis of the KPMG valuation would be undermined."
Strutt & Parker did a valuation prior to the sale which Wasps and the council have refused to release. I think its fair to say they wouldn't refuse to release it were it to back up their argument so its a fair assumption that valuation in some way mentions the increase in value with the lease extension.But that was a valuation after the event. When two clubs were playing there and not unused.
about the process rather than the outcome.A quick look and the NEC was purchased by LDC for £307M including the lease for two hotels and a 125year lease on the site plus more. NEC Group sale| Genting Arena Birmingham | Important information
Not sure comparing the NEC sale to the Ricoh sale helps SISU’s argument when you consider what the agreed sale was and what they got for the money.
Are you suggesting it would have been impossible for the council to increase the loan to ACL by £1m?So where would the money have come from considering ACL were losing money and heavily in debt already?
The whole reason this is still going on and wasn't thrown out last year is because the judge ruled that the decision wasn't sound as it considered the sale of ACL and lease extension as two separate transactions instead of one.That is the argument that SISU are trying to put over. But has no legal standing. The judge has certainly confirmed this.
We have been going round in circles for some years.Think these judges need to start talking to each other or we'll just be going round in circles.
This is going to piss The Wasps right off!
Not confident we will be at The Ricoh next season if this continues.
It was loss making. It is a sporting stadium. It was unused for what it was designed for.But it wasn’t unused - ACL was purchased, ACL were still using events. ACLs value would benefit from a lease extension
It seems every intermediate judge after the initial knockbacks who send the case forward to the actual hearing end up appearing misguided in their judgement or mistaken.The whole reason this is still going on and wasn't thrown out last year is because the judge ruled that the decision wasn't sound as it considered the sale of ACL and lease extension as two separate transactions instead of one.
Think these judges need to start talking to each other or we'll just be going round in circles.
That's a remarkably broad brush stroke.Even allowing for the high degree of incompetence and laziness in local government?
Not at all. But wouldn't that have been state aid as it wasn't needed.Are you suggesting it would have been impossible for the council to increase the loan to ACL by £1m?
It seems every intermediate judge after the initial knockbacks who send the case forward to the actual hearing end up appearing misguided in their judgement or mistaken.
More like there is a chance something might have been wrong. Just the same as beforeThe whole reason this is still going on and wasn't thrown out last year is because the judge ruled that the decision wasn't sound as it considered the sale of ACL and lease extension as two separate transactions instead of one.
Think these judges need to start talking to each other or we'll just be going round in circles.
It was loss making. It is a sporting stadium. It was unused for what it was designed for.
It doesn't matter how much you dislike what has happened. If you look on the legal side SISU don't seem to have a leg to stand on and CCC have covered their arse.
We were repeatedly assured by the council it was doing just fine when we weren't there. And at the point at which ACL was sold to Wasps we were playing there. If you recall the council made a big deal about repairing the relationship and building trust so we could potentially achieve stadium ownership.It was loss making. It is a sporting stadium. It was unused for what it was designed for.
Kerching Commission!!Maybe they get paid more for hearings when they advance?
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