Grendel
Well-Known Member
The CBS costs and the EFL loan will wipe that out
We will have at least £2m extra in gate receipts though
Understand that theory but given that, in reality, CCFC will never be in a position to repay the loans, regardless of interest, the whole load is effectively shareholder funding.
I do not think any championship football clubs accounts will read well. We are making more this year - finally. We will have to play the players market wisely, as we have in the past. If we should get promoted to the promise land this will look like a blip. If we don't we are in better shape than many others, be it a poor state of affairs.
I'm not so sure. I would guess that they'll take the PL money to realise a return for their investors, which will include some eye watering interest rate returns and try to sell.if we get promoted Sisu will clearly be here for a very long time
Impressive you know your shit old sky bluethe value of SISU investor investment in CCFC. People look at CCFC figures and make the leap that this is what the value on SISU investment funds is. I am almost certain it is not
The investors have several elements to their investment
ARVO loans to Otium/CCFC. £10m in capital and £11.1m owed in accrued interest. Actual money put in is £10m which is secured on all of the assets of the club past, present & future. The £11.1m at 31/05/2021(now having increased since by another £ 2m) is a paper debt that as it stands is difficult to recover, although SISU will take a fee slice of each years interest as managers (typically 10%). In valuing this part of the investment it is highly likely that the interest element will be written down to reflect irrecoverability. So arguably the value of this part is £10m only
The loans to SBS&L. Firstly the actual cash investment was something around £18m. Secondly this investment in the SISU investor books has been moved around to different funds which probably crystallised paper losses years ago. So very likely in doing so this debt has been written down to pennies in the pound, because the amounts would have to be transferred at market or fair value. The £28m is not secured, is in a company that doesnt generate income, has no income from Otium etc. If the investment value currently is more than £1m i would be surprised. If it were shown as £28m then you would have to write it down to reflect recoverability, which currently is very unlikely. Likely value under £1m
The ordinary shares issued to SBS&L and ARVO. essentially They own shares in a company that owns shares in a loss making football team which has a negative balance sheet at 31/05/2021 of £28m. Yes it has players to sell on but they are charged to ARVO first, then need to pay all the other debts before shareholders get funds. Cant see a big value, and i dont see anyone buying either company and taking on the debts loaded on them (a purchaser would buy the assets less football creditors). In terms of value not a lot then. likely value £1000
The preference shares. These apart from the ones ARVO purchased for 6 or 7m were derived from clever accounting to create losses, from pree SISU, and during SISU tenure. There is no cost to them for the investors. Currently it has an accruing right to dividends of something like 9% but currently no prospect of receiving such dividends. These shares carry no voting rights or rights to a share in the assets. Hard to argue that in an investors hands they are worth anything at all until the company has cleared past losses or the assets are sold. Likely value £1000
SISU specialise in investment losses. They move paper around to create them. That doesnt mean investors stand to lose money. There is no figure that must be paid or below which they cant go. SISU have to provide annual investment reports to its investors that must show current value, including any diminution of value because of the timing or nature of the investment.
What SISU want to go away and sell up is a very different thing to the value of the investment
I still think they will milk the investment before moving on. Forget what the P&L account says about £4.7m losses. the club was £1.3m cash positive and had £2.4m in the bank 31/05/2021. Creates a pot to trade with yes but also such financial management provides investment return opportunities. The club is in the position that to some degree they can pick and choose who to sell and when, and that money will not go all to MR, there will be income extraction
The actual risk to capital invested in the investment reports is less than £17m in my opinion. The interest is paperwork and a revenue risk that is set up in funds specifically designed to avoid or lower taxes. If they have to write off part of the high rate interest then the physical loss is?
Even more important the minimum they require is to cover investment valuation. Anything above 17m looks to be a win. That though is not the same as an investment managers assessment of what they want to maximise as a return
Like i say it is wrong to look at the CCFC financials and think that they are reflected exactly the same way in SISU investor reports
Does that mean our wage bill is over 15 million ?NEWS: Coventry City publish accounts for year ended 31st May 2021
Coventry City Football Club has published the latest set of accounts for the year ended 31 May, 2021.www.ccfc.co.uk
I mean if they took us back to the premier league I’d be ok with thisif we get promoted Sisu will clearly be here for a very long time
They can charge whatever they like.Old sky blue thanks for the great analysis.
I think we need to see the accounts of 2 or 3 other clubs to really decide how bad a state were acutally in.
The 2 million interest felt a bit steep.
They can, but that doesn't mean it's in the best long-term interests of the club that they do.They can charge whatever they like.
Old sky blue thanks for the great analysis.
I think we need to see the accounts of 2 or 3 other clubs to really decide how bad a state were acutally in.
The 2 million interest felt a bit steep.
Literally?So basically, Mark Robins has performed a gods miracle over the last 4 years with zero investment and putting up with another groundshare thrown in.
we could be winning this league with some investment and financial backing. Maybe now some fans will give robins some slack. He is literally fighting with one hand tied behind his back.
Does that mean our wage bill is over 15 million ?
Of course you are correct.They can, but that doesn't mean it's in the best long-term interests of the club that they do.
the value of SISU investor investment in CCFC. People look at CCFC figures and make the leap that this is what the value on SISU investment funds is. I am almost certain it is not
The investors have several elements to their investment
ARVO loans to Otium/CCFC. £10m in capital and £11.1m owed in accrued interest. Actual money put in is £10m which is secured on all of the assets of the club past, present & future. The £11.1m at 31/05/2021(now having increased since by another £ 2m) is a paper debt that as it stands is difficult to recover, although SISU will take a fee slice of each years interest as managers (typically 10%). In valuing this part of the investment it is highly likely that the interest element will be written down to reflect irrecoverability. So arguably the value of this part is £10m only
The loans to SBS&L. Firstly the actual cash investment was something around £18m. Secondly this investment in the SISU investor books has been moved around to different funds which probably crystallised paper losses years ago. So very likely in doing so this debt has been written down to pennies in the pound, because the amounts would have to be transferred at market or fair value. The £28m is not secured, is in a company that doesnt generate income, has no income from Otium etc. If the investment value currently is more than £1m i would be surprised. If it were shown as £28m then you would have to write it down to reflect recoverability, which currently is very unlikely. Likely value under £1m
The ordinary shares issued to SBS&L and ARVO. essentially They own shares in a company that owns shares in a loss making football team which has a negative balance sheet at 31/05/2021 of £28m. Yes it has players to sell on but they are charged to ARVO first, then need to pay all the other debts before shareholders get funds. Cant see a big value, and i dont see anyone buying either company and taking on the debts loaded on them (a purchaser would buy the assets less football creditors). In terms of value not a lot then. likely value £1000
The preference shares. These apart from the ones ARVO purchased for 6 or 7m were derived from clever accounting to create losses, from pree SISU, and during SISU tenure. There is no cost to them for the investors. Currently it has an accruing right to dividends of something like 9% but currently no prospect of receiving such dividends. These shares carry no voting rights or rights to a share in the assets. Hard to argue that in an investors hands they are worth anything at all until the company has cleared past losses or the assets are sold. Likely value £1000
SISU specialise in investment losses. They move paper around to create them. That doesnt mean investors stand to lose money. There is no figure that must be paid or below which they cant go. SISU have to provide annual investment reports to its investors that must show current value, including any diminution of value because of the timing or nature of the investment.
What SISU want to go away and sell up is a very different thing to the value of the investment
I still think they will milk the investment before moving on. Forget what the P&L account says about £4.7m losses. the club was £1.3m cash positive and had £2.4m in the bank 31/05/2021. Creates a pot to trade with yes but also such financial management provides investment return opportunities. The club is in the position that to some degree they can pick and choose who to sell and when, and that money will not go all to MR, there will be income extraction
The actual risk to capital invested in the investment reports is less than £17m in my opinion. The interest is paperwork and a revenue risk that is set up in funds specifically designed to avoid or lower taxes. If they have to write off part of the high rate interest then the physical loss is?
Even more important the minimum they require is to cover investment valuation. Anything above 17m looks to be a win. That though is not the same as an investment managers assessment of what they want to maximise as a return
Like i say it is wrong to look at the CCFC financials and think that they are reflected exactly the same way in SISU investor reports
MR is like the black knight off Monty Python….no investment…. No ground….shite pitch to play on due to Wasps.So basically, Mark Robins has performed a gods miracle over the last 4 years with zero investment and putting up with another groundshare thrown in.
we could be winning this league with some investment and financial backing. Maybe now some fans will give robins some slack. He is literally fighting with one hand tied behind his back.
£13m for a wage bill isn’t bad in terms of competitiveness TBF. Around £15m or so seems to be the normal mark If you ignore the ridiculous overspenders. Do wonder where it’s going though if £10k ish is our ceiling. That’s 25 players on £10k/wk which we certainly don’t have.
Well it includes everyone, so the actual playing wage bill is going to be lower
Well it includes everyone, so the actual playing wage bill is going to be lower
We haven’t even got half that on £10k and we pay everyone minimum wage from the looks of the job adverts.
still think another £2m would make a huge difference if we can move the right players on. That’s 4/5 decent players.
i assume all summer signings and contract extensions are in addition to the £13m
How much of that is likely to be playing budget? Seems high for what we have in terms of squad.
Promotion bonuses?i assume all summer signings and contract extensions are in addition to the £13m
Promotion bonuses?
They can charge whatever they like.
How much of that is likely to be playing budget? Seems high for what we have in terms of squad.
The interest charged was 7.5% or thereabouts. Yes it could be zero but where can you get a £20 odd million unsecured loan over an undefined period of time at 7.5%. You can’t.In a sense yes, but in another, no.
The money they've put in keep us afloat, BUT they do that for a price. It's loans, not capital. And they charge pretty high interest rates on it. So it's not out of generosity. They could charge zero interest, or the BoE rate if they so chose, but they don't. That is to the long term detriment to the club. And though you might say "they're not taking all that interest" then that works in their favour too, because that interest accrues interest by itself so they're actually due even more long term.
If you look at the amount of interest owing, to SISU et al it makes a massive hole in our balance sheet that affects out ability to move in the market and also attract investors to replace them, because they want such a high return.
Irrespective of what SISU would do with those two if Hamer doesn’t sign an extension before the end of the season he will be sold. His value to the club is depreciating by the day beyond the final day of the season and by December this year will be zero.So basically Hamer or Gyok will be sold in the summer to cover the losses. Not exactly a shock
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