CVA not agreed (7 Viewers)

Otis · Jul 30, 2013

There is an awful lot of second guessing on here.

There are two simple questions.

1. Why do Sisu need the CVA to be signed if they are going to get ownership of the club anyway? Is it just about the -15 points? Or is there more to this than meets the eye?

2. Why would it be in ACL's interest not to sign the CVA? Is it just about an investigation?

Fact is, none of us know the real reasoning here, or the outcome of either scenario (signed or not signed).

It's all guesswork. Some saying that if we sign the CVA that means the end of the Ricoh for CCFC and some are saying not signing the CVA will mean the end of the Ricoh for CCFC.

Seems like none of us truly knows that will happen. Lots of second guessing though on the forums.

Godiva · Jul 30, 2013

So Parkinsons law still rule: Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.
Another 7 day delay before a resolution is found.

BurbageSkyBlues · Jul 30, 2013

true sky blue said:
what point is that Burbageskyblues?

I am trying to ascertain what benefit there is , to ACL, in not signing the CVA. I am wondering if there is an , as yet, unidentified twist to this saga.

But you have your head so far up tim's backside, you can't turn it sideways to see what's going on around you........

Otis · Jul 30, 2013

true sky blue said:
i am no wum, i simply support sisu and make no attempt to hide that fact. i am a sisu sky blue. not a coventry council sky blue. i did omit the word sky from sisu sky blue - a simple error. try not to look too much into things like that, your showing paranoya

There are not Sisu Sky Blues and Coventry Council Sky Blues.

There are just Sky Blues.

BurbageSkyBlues · Jul 30, 2013

Otis said:
There is an awful lot of second guessing on here.

There are two simple questions.

1. Why do Sisu need the CVA to be signed if they are going to get ownership of the club anyway? Is it just about the -15 points? Or is there more to this than meets the eye?

2. Why would it be in ACL's interest not to sign the CVA? Is it just about an investigation?

Fact is, none of us know the real reasoning here, or the outcome of either scenario (signed or not signed).

It's all guesswork. Some saying that if we sign the CVA that means the end of the Ricoh for CCFC and some are saying not signing the CVA will mean the end of the Ricoh for CCFC.

Seems like none of us truly knows that will happen. Lots of second guessing though on the forums.

Absolutely Otis......point 2 . Is exactly what I am asking......

InterSkyBlues · Jul 30, 2013

I don't know what's saddest, the state of the club or the shite being spoken on here.

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 30, 2013

The simple answer can probably be seen in the result, if it isn't signed.

SISU want it signed because it's the best financial deal for them;

ACL don't want it signed because it's not the best financial deal for them.

It could be that simple!

Delboycov · Jul 30, 2013

InterSkyBlues said:
I don't know what's saddest, the state of the club or the shite being spoken on here.

I think you'd surely have to go with the state of the club wouldn't you?!

AFCCOVENTRY · Jul 30, 2013

It's a good point.

The fact of the matter is that Acl know what they are doing and trying to achieve by not signing the cva and there must be a reason why Sisu are desperate for the cva to be agreed.

I can't remember which insolvency expert said this, but if acl reject the cva and automatic thorough investigation can begin into CCFC ltd and the transfer of those assets.

The fact is acl would have been informed by Joe Elliot and Hoffman whom both had insider knowledge on the assets of ltd and holdings. Fact is the accounts up until Sisu stopped filing them to companies house stated player regs in ltd.

AFCCOVENTRY · Jul 30, 2013

Otis said:
There is an awful lot of second guessing on here.

There are two simple questions.

1. Why do Sisu need the CVA to be signed if they are going to get ownership of the club anyway? Is it just about the -15 points? Or is there more to this than meets the eye?

2. Why would it be in ACL's interest not to sign the CVA? Is it just about an investigation?

Fact is, none of us know the real reasoning here, or the outcome of either scenario (signed or not signed).

It's all guesswork. Some saying that if we sign the CVA that means the end of the Ricoh for CCFC and some are saying not signing the CVA will mean the end of the Ricoh for CCFC.

Seems like none of us truly knows that will happen. Lots of second guessing though on the forums.

It's a good point.

The fact of the matter is that Acl know what they are doing and trying to achieve by not signing the cva and there must be a reason why Sisu are desperate for the cva to be agreed.

I can't remember which insolvency expert said this, but if acl reject the cva and automatic thorough investigation can begin into CCFC ltd and the transfer of those assets.

The fact is acl would have been informed by Joe Elliot and Hoffman whom both had insider knowledge on the assets of ltd and holdings. Fact is the accounts up until Sisu stopped filing them to companies house stated player regs in ltd.

dongonzalos · Jul 30, 2013

true sky blue said:
I ask one question: does it matter which side gives up on this and folds? no. it only takes one side to give in, and we are back in the Ricoh. ask yourselves this: if the council really have the fans interests ONLY at heart why dont they just give in. sign the cva - accept a fair offer for the stadium (higgs will sell no problem) and we are back home. ask yourselves why please.

Mrs Lucas' public statement today, shows what many have suspected.

Mrs Sepalla has been demanding that the CVA is signed as a requirement of negotiations.

You cannot have a requirement of negotiation. That completely defeats the object of a negotiation.

What would you have thought if ACL said we will negotiate the rent with you. Once you have signed a contract to say you won't ground-share anywhere else.

Once that is done than we can chat about the Ricoh.

People would be out raged.

When will Mrs Sepalla get her head around these things.

It is not always about her demanding and getting what she wants.

oldskyblue58 · Jul 30, 2013

so if it doesnt matter which side should give in then by your logic SISU could just as easily give in accept a new rent deal and we have the problem solved. The key therefore is not just in selling the stadium to SISU is it

What the hell is Sisu Sky Blue or Council Sky Blue or even ACL Sky Blue ? they dont exist

The talks well my take on it is

- They are there for SISU to pressure ACL in to signing the CVA and to force a sale of the whole site
- ACL are trying to pressure SISU back to the Ricoh by a rental deal
- Seppala is I would guess not interested in a rent deal she will be demanding the CVA signed and ownership of the Ricoh site at a knock down price. Would guess less than £10m
- Would think that if she doesnt get it now she will be throwing legals at ACL and its stakeholders over and over again in a determined effort to distress all the parties until they run out of money because of fighting spurious legal cases
- Were she to get the site she would flip the site to a new owner, make a big profit that would be tax free because of the capital losses now sitting in the group and then withdraw the proceeds to pay off their loans. To get the losses means that CCFC will not own the Ricoh and because the loans are paid off the team wont ever see the proceeds

some sepalla legacy huh

all just an opinion though

BrisbaneBronco · Jul 30, 2013

AFCCOVENTRY said:
It's a good point.

The fact of the matter is that Acl know what they are doing and trying to achieve by not signing the cva and there must be a reason why Sisu are desperate for the cva to be agreed.

I can't remember which insolvency expert said this, but if acl reject the cva and automatic thorough investigation can begin into CCFC ltd and the transfer of those assets.

The fact is acl would have been informed by Joe Elliot and Hoffman whom both had insider knowledge on the assets of ltd and holdings. Fact is the accounts up until Sisu stopped filing them to companies house stated player regs in ltd.

Think that this is what ACL are banking on. Hoping that any investigation will prove SISU are not fit and proper.
This will take ages, in the meantime, how long can SISU bankroll us at Sixfields before they cut their losses.
There is of course the Judicial review, which may be SISU's trump card.
Who knows, all speculation, just wish people who are in the know would have the balls to tell it as it is from both sides.

true sky blue · Jul 30, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
so if it doesnt matter which side should give in then by your logic SISU could just as easily give in accept a new rent deal and we have the problem solved. The key therefore is not just in selling the stadium to SISU is it

we are way past the issue of rent now OSB, its sell up or we leave time now, i think you know that

What the hell is Sisu Sky Blue or Council Sky Blue or even ACL Sky Blue ? they dont exist

The talks well my take on it is

- They are there for SISU to pressure ACL in to signing the CVA and to force a sale of the whole site
to force a sale, we all know this already

- ACL are trying to pressure SISU back to the Ricoh by a rental deal
which the horse has already bolted, there is simply no chance the gloves are off

- Seppala is I would guess not interested in a rent deal she will be demanding the CVA signed and ownership of the Ricoh site at a knock down price. Would guess less than £10m
agreed but £8 million not 10, she offered 4 million to Higgs and they accepted in principle

- Would think that if she doesnt get it now she will be throwing legals at ACL and its stakeholders over and over again in a determined effort to distress all the parties until they run out of money because of fighting spurious legal cases
yes agreed, the option to litigate is very much open to the owners, they entered into a contract that gave them an option to buy the whole ground and stadium, the city council have reneged on that agreement - they also have the judicial review for the 14 million investment - the issue being was that investment to help the club? no it was not it was used to fight the club - that is not within the lawful limits of loaning council tax gained monies (not loans through central or european backed loans - regeneration). then their is the other civil claims i would rather not get into at the moment -needless to say the council are in a whole heap of shit. i agree with what you say OSB but i add the point of this 3 year action to sixfield is not to build a new stadium but to buy the ricoh when ACL folds. that is obviously within 3 years (more likely one year) due to their huge losses. (specifically the mortgage is crippling ACL)
- Were she to get the site she would flip the site to a new owner, make a big profit that would be tax free because of the capital losses now sitting in the group and then withdraw the proceeds to pay off their loans. To get the losses means that CCFC will not own the Ricoh and because the loans are paid off the team wont ever see the proceeds

some sepalla legacy huh
well you play with sharks your gonna get bit. i dont believe sepala had or has any alternative OSB, just put yourself in the business chair - what would you have done when the whole point lies upon the income and your business is crippled from making profit due to the refusal of ACL to allow you the deal it agreed to when you brought the business? with no other income than ticket and club shop sales what on earth was sisu supposed to do? plus add the hatred pointed at sisu from the council the fans and the like - if you were Sepala you would not exactly hold the club dear to your heart would you? come off it

all just an opinion though

true sky blue · Jul 30, 2013

BrisbaneBronco said:
Think that this is what ACL are banking on. Hoping that any investigation will prove SISU are not fit and proper.
This will take ages, in the meantime, how long can SISU bankroll us at Sixfields before they cut their losses.
There is of course the Judicial review, which may be SISU's trump card.
Who knows, all speculation, just wish people who are in the know would have the balls to tell it as it is from both sides.

sisu are desperate for the cva to be agreed to enable US FANS to have new players, not start the season 15 points adrift and have better season than ACL would rather us have. the council are going to make sure we go down again yet- they want ccfc dead and gone - they will or can (if ACL still exist) start a new football club i suppose. thats their dream anyway.

procdoc · Jul 30, 2013

Paxman II said:
...you won't get your club back. It will be gone.
Tell what evidence do you have that SISU as owners of the football club and operators of CCFC (Ltd) have done anything illegal?
So everything SISU do is a bluff? Like we won't be playing at Northampton?
In your eyes then ACL/council have done nothing to damage our club you want back? Are not both sides culpable?
You think you can just run people out of town because you don't like them?
Not sure what outcome you are expecting from all this and where you wish this all to end?

Sisu ran themselves out of town or did you miss that part to support your blinkered view?

duffer · Jul 30, 2013

ACL sign the CVA, they get a few quid and the club fecks off to Northampton, no further investigation.

ACL don't sign the CVA, everything is still up for grabs. ACL could challenge the liquidation, and/or there's a proper investigation into the directors' conduct over the last few years. Where that leads no one knows for sure, but there's obviously a prima facie case here with regard to the 'missing' assets and huge debts in CCFC Ltd. If the case is proven, I think it becomes very difficult for SISU to retain control of the club.

For me the latter looks like the best chance for the club in the long term.

jesus-wept · Jul 30, 2013

Have respect for ACL. and it's team.
They obviously know more than we do, still a lot to come out I believe. This cva has to go beyond staying in embargo, remember sisu put us in that last March nothing to do with the rent issue, a possible 15 point reduction, not a certainty and liquidation again not a certainty. Apart from an investigation into sisu affairs in all this lets see how real this Northampton threat is, no tickets been sold yet here or Bristol. The cost of Sixfields to sisu is massive.
as for an investigation ? why let that option go, are you all confident in 2,3 years time we won't be here again because I ain't. Remember what MP Bob Ainsworth said last week to Paul Appleton, "prepare to stand aside" I don't think that was an idle threat. Since BA said that Joy Sepalla has at long last emerged out of the shadows and if reports are correct was disappointed Council leader Ann Lucas and c.e.o. Martin Reeves weren't there, bit rich that from someone who hasn't been seen since sisu came into the club.

This is a battle and those who stay strong normally come through okay and to be honest a lot on here today if I was with in a battle I would make sure you were ahead of me so I didn't get a bullet in the back.

Sub · Jul 30, 2013

true sky blue said:
sisu are desperate for the cva to be agreed to enable US FANS to have new players, not start the season 15 points adrift and have better season than ACL would rather us have. the council are going to make sure we go down again yet- they want ccfc dead and gone - they will or can (if ACL still exist) start a new football club i suppose. thats their dream anyway.

desperate to advoid any further investigations in to their smoke and mirrors businesses and the so called 'normal business practice of not submitting books' and creating ghost companies to shift debts around !!

Big_Ben · Jul 30, 2013

CCFC said:
What is the investigation into and who investigates though? If it is the current administrator Appleton who is doing the investigation then it is a pointless exercise.

Exactly my thoughts.
It's unlikely to be HMRC because they are not owed anything, There's a relatively small amount of VAT, and there's a reason for that so there's no great excitement there.
Which leaved a lot of clutching at straws, hoping that something - anything - might turn up that will discredit SISU so badly that they pack up and run for the hills.

I can't see how that's going to happen. I think that what we have seen so far at least shows that SISU have got balls of steel when it comes to showdowns, so I'm coming round to the point of view that if they are prepared to go to such lengths that we have already seen to make sure that they protect their investments, there is a fair chance that part of the plans is to turn around the fortunes of the club on the pitch over the next few years because thats where the real money lies - either by making City a premier league team again, or by selling a profitable Championship team with its own stadium.

I know that this won't appeal to the baying mob, but sooner or later it will have to dawn on people that if you keep banging your head on a brick wall, it's going to keep hurting and the brick wall's still there.

Godiva · Jul 30, 2013

Big_Ben said:
I know that this won't appeal to the baying mob, but sooner or later it will have to dawn on people that if you keep banging your head on a brick wall, it's going to keep hurting and the brick wall's still there.

If you hear a hollow sound when banging your head against the wall it's not necessarily the wall that is hollow.

oldskyblue58 · Jul 30, 2013

just to clarify a point Big_Ben for HMRC to investigate a taxpayer does not require them to be owed anything by that taxpayer. They need grounds or information to open an investigation nothing more.

Sky Blue Kid · Jul 30, 2013

PaxmanII says.....So everything SISU do is a bluff? I say......On takeover £30m made ready to take CCFC forward.......BLUFF On takeover we are going to buy the ACL share in the Ricoh..........BLUFF Approx April 2011...We are going to buy ACL share in Ricoh..........BLUFF Agree on the "Heads of terms" then renege.................................BLUFF All it has ever been with SISU is Bluff, Bluff, Lies,Lies,Lies, Bluff,Bluff Bluff Lies, and even more Lies and Bluff. DON'T sign the CVA...Bring it on, let's see what dirt gets uncovered. IF the FL/FA have got any balls, they will NOT give the GS to Otium/SISU, but give it to a owner that has CCFC at heart.

fernandopartridge · Jul 30, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
just to clarify a point Big_Ben for HMRC to investigate a taxpayer does not require them to be owed anything by that taxpayer. They need grounds or information to open an investigation nothing more.

Do you think that's likely considering the lack of resource they have? They don't even investigate tax fraud that is widely known about.

Delboycov · Jul 30, 2013

Big_Ben said:
Exactly my thoughts.
It's unlikely to be HMRC because they are not owed anything, There's a relatively small amount of VAT, and there's a reason for that so there's no great excitement there.
Which leaved a lot of clutching at straws, hoping that something - anything - might turn up that will discredit SISU so badly that they pack up and run for the hills.

I can't see how that's going to happen. I think that what we have seen so far at least shows that SISU have got balls of steel when it comes to showdowns, so I'm coming round to the point of view that if they are prepared to go to such lengths that we have already seen to make sure that they protect their investments, there is a fair chance that part of the plans is to turn around the fortunes of the club on the pitch over the next few years because thats where the real money lies - either by making City a premier league team again, or by selling a profitable Championship team with its own stadium.

I know that this won't appeal to the baying mob, but sooner or later it will have to dawn on people that if you keep banging your head on a brick wall, it's going to keep hurting and the brick wall's still there.

....or alternatively continue to mismanage the club and carry on with presiding over our slide down the leagues, out of our city and into oblivion. Presumably they've always had 'balls of steel' so to summise that they will now suddenly plan our great return back to the premier on the back of gambling with the very future of our club is naive at best....They tried that and failed. They are prepared to go to any lengths to save their skins...the future success of the club won't even be considered I'm sure.

oldskyblue58 · Jul 30, 2013

tsb - when was this contract to buy the whole of the Ricoh entered in to ? and was it a contract or heads of terms ?

oldskyblue58 · Jul 30, 2013

fernandopartridge said:
Do you think that's likely considering the lack of resource they have? They don't even investigate tax fraud that is widely known about.

It is changing ..... currently the tax office is restructuring to focus more on compliance and investigations...... the yield from that side of things has rocketed upwards in recent years

oldskyblue58 · Jul 30, 2013

tsb - you and i both know what is likely to cripple ACL, The Council, or the charity is the legal costs instigated by SISU. It is not the cost of the mortgage

What that doesnt prove is that SISU are right or even have a valid case but simply they have deeper pockets. It also points to the fact that the true worth of the Ricoh site is way above what SISU are offering - it has to be to cover purchase, the legals of the whole dispute, and a soaking up of the losses, so that a large chunk of the debts are repaid. Otherwise there would be no business case for SISU to carry this on

As you say JS & co have no affinity or liking for the club it is just dirty business. So why would the club, CCFC, benefit from this?

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 30, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
hat doesnt prove that SISU are right or even have a valid case but simply they have deeper pockets.

It's the fear all along tbh.

If I had the cash, I'd underwrite the costs of whoever won those cases, just so we could reach a conclusion in the end! (perhaps this is where a fighting fund should go, 'pay the winner's court costs') Alas, courts are probably the ideal way to resolve all this (let's go all the way back to Richardson coming into the club, much to Derrick Robins' surprise)... but also the worst.

It'd stop all the destructive speculation one way or another though.

Nonleagueherewecome · Jul 30, 2013

true sky blue said:
i am no wum, i simply support sisu and make no attempt to hide that fact. i am a sisu sky blue. not a coventry council sky blue. i did omit the word sky from sisu sky blue - a simple error. try not to look too much into things like that, your showing paranoya

You are a WUM. There is no such thing as a "SISU Sky Blue", it's a contradiction. You said the other day that 90% of City fans have no care for the club. That alone makes you a WUM.

RegTheDonk · Jul 30, 2013

covmark said:
Jesus Christ, "well done ACL" that comment sums you up. You're an utter disgrace. You do know any hope of playing at the Ricoh is gone if this is true, but that obviously doesn't bother you

I don't agree with dadgad's "well done ACL" but IMO, there was no hope of us playing at the Ricoh anyway. Even if ACL said play here for free, SISU would want the lot (pies and booze) for next to nothing. Sell the Ricoh, nope not that way either .... SISU wouldn't want to pay the councils asking price.

The only well done to ACL I see is they've at least stuck to their guns and not caved into the bully.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Jul 30, 2013

sky blue john said:
If we get a 15point deduction it doesn't matter we will be relegated this season anyway !!!

So of we are docked 15 points, get relegated 10 points off safety and the investigation reveals nothing will it have been worth it?

jesus-wept · Jul 30, 2013

IF we get a 15 point reduction
IF we (ccfc ltd) get liquidated
IF we play at Sixfields

All big IFs

deanocity3 · Jul 30, 2013

don't think liquidation will happened to the club as the FL will ensure that the fixtures are fulfilled which is why they agreed with groundshare.
There are plenty interested in the club.
Sisu might buy it back

dadgad · Jul 30, 2013

RegTheDonk said:
I don't agree with dadgad's "well done ACL" but IMO, there was no hope of us playing at the Ricoh anyway. Even if ACL said play here for free, SISU would want the lot (pies and booze) for next to nothing. Sell the Ricoh, nope not that way either .... SISU wouldn't want to pay the councils asking price.

The only well done to ACL I see is they've at least stuck to their guns and not caved into the bully.

That's progress, pretty piss poor for us fans but the season is a write off anyway.

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