Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
How many we thinking 5000??
Combined IQ? YeahHow many we thinking 5000??
You say that, but our numbers aren’t massively out of whack with private systems. In the US the figure can be up to 54% (!).
Interestingly it seems the number has risen along with the rise in telephone appointments, which would I assume also involve lower costs but not sure.
On fine as a way to reduce behaviour generally, I always remember this story made famous by Freakanomics:
A Fine is a Price
The deterrence hypothesis predicts that the introduction of a penalty that leaves everything else unchanged will reduce the occurrence of the behavior subject tpapers.ssrn.com
Basically a nursery had issues with parents dropping kids late. So they introduced late fees. And the number of late parents went up because paying the fee absolved them of guilt for being late so they tried less hard to be on time.
Had a quick scan down that link. Strange that it says missed appointments were 7m, yet the attached also on nhs, says 15m (both 2019) NHS England » Missed GP appointments costing NHS millions
Pretty sure we got it down to 14m this year though.
Sounds like the US has only recently started implementing penalties. Not sure who has previous covered the cost ? Insurers ?
Why wouldn’t we even try though ? What we’re saying is it’s ok for the council to charge us £30 parking fine for getting back to our car 10 mins late but we can’t charge people anything for not bothering to call to cancel an appointment that someone else might need for a potentially serious health condition ? Madness
Ps worst case it’s a few hundred million to cover the cost of additional/replacement appointments but I’m pretty confident it would change behaviours
You’ve never posted something shared on another social media site to take the piss?I think it means you believe he is someone worthy of discussion or the thread of why post something from his X feed. In fact why look at it - do you follow him?
Missed appointments cost time but don't cost money as such. GP contracts are paid on the size of the registered list + extras for additional and enhanced services. They are not paid per appointment.Had a quick scan down that link. Strange that it says missed appointments were 7m, yet the attached also on nhs, says 15m (both 2019) NHS England » Missed GP appointments costing NHS millions
Pretty sure we got it down to 14m this year though.
Sounds like the US has only recently started implementing penalties. Not sure who has previous covered the cost ? Insurers ?
Why wouldn’t we even try though ? What we’re saying is it’s ok for the council to charge us £30 parking fine for getting back to our car 10 mins late but we can’t charge people anything for not bothering to call to cancel an appointment that someone else might need for a potentially serious health condition ? Madness
Ps worst case it’s a few hundred million to cover the cost of additional/replacement appointments but I’m pretty confident it would change behaviours
I don’t think we’ll charge for appointments nor should we, but why on Earth we’ve never implemented a penalty system for missed GP or hospital appointments Ill never know. They say ‘administrative burden’ but let’s be honest if people knew they’d be charged £30-40 for not bothering to cancel it would soon cut numbers down massively.
Have a two strike system, don’t penalise elderly or those with leaning difficulties.
Currently 14-15m per annum GP appointments are missed. That’s appointments that others could use to prevent illnesses/conditions from worsening and prevent some from having to turn up to A&E (which I heard costs the NHS £400 per visit !). Both we and the NHS need to be better
How can free prescriptions be abused? Doctors control it not the patientsI don’t disagree with the principle at all but as mentioned with the late fees, it can drive this up and the costs of chasing unpaid late fees could be costly.
In other systems, you pay to see a doctor in advance of the appointment, it varies country to country but using France as an example, the cost is €23 iirc and it’s capped above a certain threshold per month or annum. Even things like charging nominal fees for hospital beds and what not could raise extra capital for hospitals.
There’s a lot of abuse for the service too because they’re taking advantage of a free service at times. The same reason we introduced prescription fees too.
In short term, I think the next government needs to take out as much demand from the NHS as possible. Perhaps they should bring back VAT exemptions for private health insurance and perhaps incentivise employers to put their staff on PHI with tax breaks. This isn’t a silver bullet but could do something to get people off waiting lists.
How can free prescriptions be abused? Doctors control it not the patients
When the NHS was founded, prescriptions were free of charge and this was scrapped in 1952. They tried a abolish said charges in 1965 and reintroduced in 1968. The reason because people were overusing the system and it put pressure on the system.
Hence, we have means tested free prescriptions.
As a pensioner I get free prescriptions... but in Scotland they are free to all.When the NHS was founded, prescriptions were free of charge and this was scrapped in 1952. They tried a abolish said charges in 1965 and reintroduced in 1968. The reason because people were overusing the system and it put pressure on the system.
Hence, we have means tested free prescriptions.
They really should be free for those under a certain income. As usual the narrative takes the focus off those avoiding paying millions in taxes, which is where the real problems are.As a pensioner I get free prescriptions... but in Scotland they are free to all.
Years ago when working at Landrover I worked in a small team and I was the only one that actually paid for my prescriptions...the others just signed to say they received benefits of some kind....maybe these days you have to have proof (I'm not sure tbh).
I do wonder how many people working and not qualifying for free prescriptions just can't afford the cost?...nigh on £20 for two items....big hit for many lowish paid workers and families.
Totally agree...Sunak paid only £400k this year and his wealth rose by £121 Million in the tax year...I pay income tax on (tbh) a modest pension.They really should be free for those under a certain income. As usual the narrative takes the focus off those avoiding paying millions in taxes, which is where the real problems are.
What’s your source for people “overusing the system”? Everything I can find says it was a simple revenue raising policy.
100% spot on.The NHS is a really sad case. I suffer from chronic insomnia and occasional mental health issues. The service is slow, but when you do have access, it's exceptionally good, based on my experience
I've also used private when I had a quite severe lapse in my mental health at the tail end of 2021, and the service there was just as good, but a lot quicker. I think there is a lot of will in the NHS to be a healthcare service it wants to be, there is just not enough staff, money etc...
The argument was made by Attlee’s government (including Bevan) and his early Tory counterpart McLeod. The exact quote is something about being a deterrent against ‘overwhelming surgeries’.
Again, since its inception the issue of extra costs have been floated about. Specifically around GP visits and ‘hotel’ fees. It was either Beveridge or Nye Bevan that supported this.
Something high level for you:
2 - Clement Attlee’s Crisis Prescription Charges, 1951 - Lecture 2: Clement Attlee’s Crisis; - Studocu
Share free summaries, lecture notes, exam prep and more!!www.studocu.com
Let's talk NHS appointments.
An interesting thing I heard recently is the people who book regular NHS appointments. There is nothing wrong with this.
Just to open up the debate a little.
30 million appointments a month for GP services
10% of patients don't turn up.
Frequent attenders account for 4 in 10 of consultations. Again, not saying there is anything wrong wiith this.
It seeems another 40,000 NHS appointments Labour is committed to a month is really piss poor in every way.
You could have an extra 3 million appointments a month by getting people to rearrange or cancel NHS appoinjtments if required, or even turning up for them.
11:20-14:45More or Less: Behind the Stats - Shopping, shipping and wind chill-ing - BBC Sounds
We investigate the cost of a weekly shop and explore the workings of wind chillwww.bbc.co.uk
I get free prescriptions as I have to take a combo of drugs every day because of my transplant. Should be free for all.When the NHS was founded, prescriptions were free of charge and this was scrapped in 1952. They tried a abolish said charges in 1965 and reintroduced in 1968. The reason because people were overusing the system and it put pressure on the system.
Hence, we have means tested free prescriptions.
Missed appointments cost time but don't cost money as such. GP contracts are paid on the size of the registered list + extras for additional and enhanced services. They are not paid per appointment.
Paying for GP visits is already coming in by the back door anyway. When I go to the pharmacy to pick up my prescription they make sure to tell you every time that if you can't get an appointment with the GP they offer a same day appointment service for £80. Given its near impossible to get a GP appointment, and if you can there's even less chance you can get it at a time that fits around work, these services will be used more and more until they become the norm.At the current trajectory, the NHS will have introducecharges for GP visits and hospital stays, we already have to pay for prescription fees.
In both France and Australia, the health insurance is socialised and it funded similarly to how our own national insurance works - direct from pay packets. In our own country, there exists a de facto two-tier system whether you like it or not. Over 1 million more patients are using private health (often self-funded) has gone up by over 1 million since COVID to skip waiting lists to treat their conditions. These people aren't the elite, often they're middle class professionals who just want treatment in a timely manner.
I stand before you as a case and point, I supposed to have an appointment with a consultant in Feb, that was pushed to May and now to September. With PHI, I was seen 2 weeks ago and will 2-3 follow ups before September. A lot of people in our age bracket have little experience needing to access to NHS services and it shows when having this difficult conversations.
Point of order that’s not what the podcast says. It says 30m in general practice half of which (15m are GP appointments) and 10% of those (1.5m) are missed.
You posted it
This is exactly what people who talk about alternative models to the NHS want. Basically they want poor people to get worse care and the rich to be able to pay for the best. Problem is most people won’t appreciate the NHS until we lose it.Paying for GP visits is already coming in by the back door anyway. When I go to the pharmacy to pick up my prescription they make sure to tell you every time that if you can't get an appointment with the GP they offer a same day appointment service for £80. Given its near impossible to get a GP appointment, and if you can there's even less chance you can get it at a time that fits around work, these services will be used more and more until they become the norm.
When I was in hospital recently chatting to one of the doctors there he said they had seen a huge surge in the last couple of years in the number of people turning up at the hospital because they simply had nowhere else to go, therefore A&E ends up overwhelmed.
You're right on the two tier system as well. During my recent stay in hospital they found an issue with my blood. Not urgent enough to be sorted there and then but something that's a relatively high priority to get resolved. Got my appointment through for that, it's June 2015. Do I spend a year hoping it doesn't lead to further problems or pay to get it sorted privately even though I can't really afford it?
You posted it
In practice how would that work? Fines are only effective if there is some threat of something happening if you don't pay. Are we going to start jailing people who miss a doctors appointment, or cut off peoples access to healthcare?I don’t think we’ll charge for appointments nor should we, but why on Earth we’ve never implemented a penalty system for missed GP or hospital appointments Ill never know. They say ‘administrative burden’ but let’s be honest if people knew they’d be charged £30-40 for not bothering to cancel it would soon cut numbers down massively.
Have a two strike system, don’t penalise elderly or those with leaning difficulties.
Currently 14-15m per annum GP appointments are missed. That’s appointments that others could use to prevent illnesses/conditions from worsening and prevent some from having to turn up to A&E (which I heard costs the NHS £400 per visit !). Both we and the NHS need to be better
Don't even get me started on this. I got referred for a mental health assessment a while back. Took several months for the assessment to take place. The 20 minute assessment end up taking 90 minutes and resulted in me being made a priority and given emergency contact numbers for places like that samaritans. Which was all a bit strange to me as I was discussing life long issues I'd never really realised before that didn't affect everyone.The NHS is a really sad case. I suffer from chronic insomnia and occasional mental health issues. The service is slow, but when you do have access, it's exceptionally good, based on my experience
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?