Do you want to discuss boring politics? (10 Viewers)

Grendel · Jun 9, 2024

PVA said:
There is nothing in there about a Labour £35b black hole.

Do you have a link to the report?

It really isn’t difficult to find. It centres on the projected 1.5% growth per annum that then supports the funding. The IFS have said these projections are “rather daft” - both parties are using this and the IFS have included a Tory commitment of scrapping NI so it’s black hole is totally laughable.

Labour is cited as between £28 to £38 billion - the whole plan is based on a growth projection that is laughable.

I’m not voting for either party so I don’t care. The projections are for the birds - there’s no realism - just politicians lying and assuming idiots buy the lie.

Grendel · Jun 9, 2024

Also when you have a labour shadow chancellor accusing Jeremy hunt and Rishi Sunak of creating socialist spending plans akin to Jeremy Corbyn this surely is time to lock the doors and give up - the lunatics really have taken over the asylum

Grendel · Jun 9, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Just caught up with it. Labour managed to sink further in my estimation, the Green leader was impressive. Pity that voting for them here would allow a Tory to win.

‘Labour has changed…into the Conservatives’

Nail on head. Farage’s racial profiling near the end was abhorrent.

A Tory win in a constituency makes no difference - this election has to somehow create a movement to break the cost political system - Labour are winning but minor party parentages are important - I’m voting Green purely to make a point

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 9, 2024

Grendel said:
The target has been in place for some time and last year 212,000 were built. What evidence is there labour will honour any promises given the damning independent view on their spending to revenue commitments?

One of Labour’s ideas was to bring in ‘top-down’ targets from central government. A policy that the tories had in their tenure and scrapped

It’s well and good saying they will build houses and ‘new towns’ but the delivery seems identical to the previous government. I struggle to see how anything will change. Even so, an extra 90k being built per year - it’s not exactly moving the dial.

If Labour had a plausible plan, I’d be all for it.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 9, 2024

Grendel said:
It really isn’t difficult to find. It centres on the projected 1.5% growth per annum that then supports the funding. The IFS have said these projections are “rather daft” - both parties are using this and the IFS have included a Tory commitment of scrapping NI so it’s black hole is totally laughable.

Labour is cited as between £28 to £38 billion - the whole plan is based on a growth projection that is laughable.

I’m not voting for either party so I don’t care. The projections are for the birds - there’s no realism - just politicians lying and assuming idiots buy the lie.

Agreed. Labour will win this election purely because the public have had enough of the Tories. In my view, a lot of people are going to be disappointed.

Rachel Reeves is an ex-banker, she will not deviate from the orthodoxy at the OBR. The same orthodoxy that’s led to low growth, soaring asset prices and wage stagnation.

There will be tax increases this parliament and without a plan to cut public expenditure it’ll be a perpetual cycle.

If Labour squander this parliament, they could face a real challenge from the left (Greens) at the next election just as Reform is challenging the tories. We’re fed up with politicians delivering the same policies and continually failing.

Whatever people’s views on Brexit, the 2016 referendum was supposed to reset our political system. That is yet to happen.

Ian1779 · Jun 9, 2024

Grendel said:
That’s exactly the same policy as the Tory one

Grouping the yearly targets into one big number….. grown up politics in action.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 9, 2024

Grendel said:
A Tory win in a constituency makes no difference - this election has to somehow create a movement to break the cost political system - Labour are winning but minor party parentages are important - I’m voting Green purely to make a point

I’m still torn on it

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 9, 2024

Grendel said:
Also when you have a labour shadow chancellor accusing Jeremy hunt and Rishi Sunak of creating socialist spending plans akin to Jeremy Corbyn this surely is time to lock the doors and give up - the lunatics really have taken over the asylum

It’s a party drunk on Daily Mail approval

Deleted member 5849 · Jun 9, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I’m still torn on it

Weell my own view (I'd say not meant to influence, but... ) is that the current shambles are so appalling that my vote is going wherever has a vague possibility of unseating my current MP, be that Labour, Lib Dem, Green, Loony... might draw the line at Reform mind you!

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 9, 2024

Deleted member 5849 said:
Weell my own view (I'd say not meant to influence, but... ) is that the current shambles are so appalling that my vote is going wherever has a vague possibility of unseating my current MP, be that Labour, Lib Dem, Green, Loony... might draw the line at Reform mind you!

Green it is.

Deleted member 5849 · Jun 9, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Green it is.

I see my powers haven't waned

Philosoraptor · Jun 9, 2024

I see some interesting results coming through from Europe.

rob9872 · Jun 9, 2024

Would be interesting to know how many traditional Conservative voters have jumped ship. Guessing not many left.

We do need a strong opposition and not Reform. With the thought they might be decimated it could be a real milestone. My guess is many will desert them but bring themselves to vote against so don't turn out at all. Could be a low turnout in a landslide Labour win.

Looking for betting angles tbh.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 9, 2024

rob9872 said:
Would be interesting to know how many traditional Conservative voters have jumped ship. Guessing not many left.

We do need a strong opposition and not Reform. With the thought they might be decimated it could be a real milestone. My guess is many will desert them but bring themselves to vote against so don't turn out at all. Could be a low turnout in a landslide Labour win.

Looking for betting angles tbh.

It could mark a political realignment of the type we haven’t seen since the Liberal Party collapsed.

CCFCSteve · Jun 9, 2024

Philosoraptor said:
I see some interesting results coming through from Europe.

Macrons just called a snap election . Must be catching

Macron calls snap French election and Belgian PM to resign after disastrous poll results

Across Europe, the far and populist right made notable gains in the European Parliament elections raising questions over what the political future of the continent looked like.

news.sky.com

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 9, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
It could mark a political realignment of the type we haven’t seen since the Liberal Party collapsed.

Labour might not be safe either, the Greens could make real inroads if they fumble it in government. Reform will take a lot of votes from Labour in the Midlands and the North.

If anything, I think Labour’s electoral coalition is more fragile than the Conservatives.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jun 9, 2024

How did the European elections go? This thread is almost as quiet as the Mannheim attacks one.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 10, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
How did the European elections go? This thread is almost as quiet as the Mannheim attacks one.

Lurched to the right, as expected. I wonder how the EU will be viewed by the centre/centre-left when Starmer needs to deal with an EU that’s a lot more RW than our government.

I wonder if he’ll be as keen on EU alignment.

duffer · Jun 10, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Lurched to the right, as expected. I wonder how the EU will be viewed by the centre/centre-left when Starmer needs to deal with an EU that’s a lot more RW than our government.

I wonder if he’ll be as keen on EU alignment.

From the Guardian...

"While far-right gains triggered a political earthquake in France and made major gains elsewhere, their progress was not universal and mainstream parties looked set to keep a majority in the 27-member bloc’s parliament."

So I'm not sure we've got a far right EU to worry about yet. If it's broadly centre-right, I suspect Starmer would feel right at home.

In truth though, I suspect neither of the main parties is going to talk much about Europe.

David O'Day · Jun 10, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
How did the European elections go? This thread is almost as quiet as the Mannheim attacks one.

slight lurch to to the right but even the "massive" gains in france for the FN ended up in about 30 or so %.

By far the 2 biggest parties are the centre-right and centre-left blocks

David O'Day · Jun 10, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
How did the European elections go? This thread is almost as quiet as the Mannheim attacks one.

Current projections as centre right 1st, centre left 2nd and liberals 3rd

As of 00.40am they are

European People’s party: 189

Socialists and Democrats: 135

Renew Europe: 83

European Conservatives and Reformists: 72

Identity and Democracy: 58

Greens/EFA: 53

The Left: 35

Non-attached: 45

Others: 50

shmmeee · Jun 10, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
They are behaving very Tory like, granting huge powers to the whims of ministers. Want a prison built in your town? No? Fuck off because Yvette Cooper wanted build one for G4S to run.

Good. No one wants anything built in their town and now we haven’t built a reservoir in over 30 years.

We need to build stuff. You can’t preserve the country in aspic.

alexccfc99 · Jun 10, 2024

rob9872 said:
Would be interesting to know how many traditional Conservative voters have jumped ship. Guessing not many left.

We do need a strong opposition and not Reform. With the thought they might be decimated it could be a real milestone. My guess is many will desert them but bring themselves to vote against so don't turn out at all. Could be a low turnout in a landslide Labour win.

Looking for betting angles tbh.

I do not see who is left to vote for them?

The people who were convinced to lend them (But mainly Boris, really) their vote in 2019 won't be doing the same, the more right leaning voters will vote Reform now Farage is leading them and then I can see a lot of their more traditional voter base switching to the Liberal Democrats

I don't see what possible incentive they offer to vote for them, led by in my opinion the most out of touch leader this country has ever had who weeks into the campaign looks like he has already threw the towel in they are going to lose and lose in embarrassing fashion - They are 7/2 to win less than 50 seats and I don't think that is a bad bet

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 10, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Labour might not be safe either, the Greens could make real inroads if they fumble it in government. Reform will take a lot of votes from Labour in the Midlands and the North.

If anything, I think Labour’s electoral coalition is more fragile than the Conservatives.

Parties like Reform rely heavily on a single issue charlatan to con people in those areas into voting against their own interests. Labour’s decision to be ashamed of good policies and start copying Tory mantras helps parties like that as it leads people to think they’re one and the same.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 10, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Parties like Reform rely heavily on a single issue charlatan to con people in those areas into voting against their own interests. Labour’s decision to be ashamed of good policies and start copying Tory mantras helps parties like that as it leads people to think they’re one and the same.

It’s a consequence of the centre-left in addressing the concerns of their traditional working class base. In the UK, you can trace this disconnect back to Brown’s ‘bigot-gate’ on the campaign trail. If Labour can find an answer to net migration, they’ll be in power for 3-4 parliaments. If things get worse, then they risk haemorrhaging votes in the midlands and the North. Farage will have plenty of ammunition following what could be a successful campaign for his party.

Le Pen’s party rise has mostly impacted the French Left. The AfD’s popularity is highest in east Germany, where the left was traditionally strongest.

It should be Starmer’s number one priority for consolidating Labour rule because the public finances won’t be healthy enough to spend on traditional labour priorities.

shmmeee · Jun 10, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
One of Labour’s ideas was to bring in ‘top-down’ targets from central government. A policy that the tories had in their tenure and scrapped

It’s well and good saying they will build houses and ‘new towns’ but the delivery seems identical to the previous government. I struggle to see how anything will change. Even so, an extra 90k being built per year - it’s not exactly moving the dial.

If Labour had a plausible plan, I’d be all for it.

They’re talking about planning reform. They’ve already said they’ll move key infrastructure out of local planning control and update the guidance within the first six months, which causes an 18 month delay because the Tories weren’t competent enough to keep it updated.

Same as they’re talking about council tax rebanding. A new govt with a big majority will be able to do these things because they have the political capital to.

Specifically for house building they’ve talked about reducing planning blockers on brownfield and giving powers to metro mayors and development corps in new towns to push planning for housing through.

Have you read their policy? It’s fine to disagree but you seem to have just accepted the Tory “no plan” election campaign without question.

JUST ANNOUNCED: Labour will build 1.5 million homes to save the dream of homeownership – The Labour Party

Keir Starmer has pledged to get Britain building again – starting with one and a half million new homes across the country within five years of a Labour government. In his speech to Labour Party Conference, the Labour Leader said he would recapture the dream of homeownership with help for first...

labour.org.uk

Sky Blue Pete · Jun 10, 2024

shmmeee said:
They’re talking about planning reform. They’ve already said they’ll move key infrastructure out of local planning control and update the guidance within the first six months, which causes an 18 month delay because the Tories weren’t competent enough to keep it updated.

Same as they’re talking about council tax rebanding. A new govt with a big majority will be able to do these things because they have the political capital to.

Specifically for house building they’ve talked about reducing planning blockers on brownfield and giving powers to metro mayors and development corps in new towns to push planning for housing through.

Have you read their policy? It’s fine to disagree but you seem to have just accepted the Tory “no plan” election campaign without question.

JUST ANNOUNCED: Labour will build 1.5 million homes to save the dream of homeownership – The Labour Party

Keir Starmer has pledged to get Britain building again – starting with one and a half million new homes across the country within five years of a Labour government. In his speech to Labour Party Conference, the Labour Leader said he would recapture the dream of homeownership with help for first...

labour.org.uk

As have many as starmer is sunak’s brother

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 10, 2024

shmmeee said:
They’re talking about planning reform. They’ve already said they’ll move key infrastructure out of local planning control and update the guidance within the first six months, which causes an 18 month delay because the Tories weren’t competent enough to keep it updated.

Same as they’re talking about council tax rebanding. A new govt with a big majority will be able to do these things because they have the political capital to.

Specifically for house building they’ve talked about reducing planning blockers on brownfield and giving powers to metro mayors and development corps in new towns to push planning for housing through.

Have you read their policy? It’s fine to disagree but you seem to have just accepted the Tory “no plan” election campaign without question.

JUST ANNOUNCED: Labour will build 1.5 million homes to save the dream of homeownership – The Labour Party

Keir Starmer has pledged to get Britain building again – starting with one and a half million new homes across the country within five years of a Labour government. In his speech to Labour Party Conference, the Labour Leader said he would recapture the dream of homeownership with help for first...

labour.org.uk

No Shmmeee, their overall policy is to hit the same targets as the current government. Why would that be?

The most charitable assumption would be it’s an opportunity for good PR by beating the targets. More likely, they don’t think the policies will have that much of an impact. Why else keep the promise of a failed government?

Reading through the link it’s short on detail without any detail on how it’ll actually hit the 1.5m houses. Bearing in mind the yearly average is 212k under this government anyway.

It’s rather cheeky of you to call me credulous.

shmmeee · Jun 10, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
No Shmmeee, their overall policy is to hit the same targets as the current government. Why would that be?

The most charitable assumption would be it’s an opportunity for good PR by beating the targets. More likely, they don’t think the policies will have that much of an impact. Why else keep the promise of a failed government?

Reading through the link it’s short on detail without any detail on how it’ll actually hit the 1.5m houses. Bearing in mind the yearly average is 212k under this government anyway.

It’s rather cheeky of you to call me credulous.

As I detailed in my reply they plan to reduce planning blockers by allowing on brownfield and giving mayors more power also by building new towns. These are all new policy proposals the current government hasn’t done.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 10, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
It’s a consequence of the centre-left in addressing the concerns of their traditional working class base. In the UK, you can trace this disconnect back to Brown’s ‘bigot-gate’ on the campaign trail. If Labour can find an answer to net migration, they’ll be in power for 3-4 parliaments. If things get worse, then they risk haemorrhaging votes in the midlands and the North. Farage will have plenty of ammunition following what could be a successful campaign for his party.

Le Pen’s party rise has mostly impacted the French Left. The AfD’s popularity is highest in east Germany, where the left was traditionally strongest.

It should be Starmer’s number one priority for consolidating Labour rule because the public finances won’t be healthy enough to spend on traditional labour priorities.

Farage who pushed Brexit which has been an unmitigated failure and did nothing to stop the foreigners coming in. Which is hardly surprising as most immigration here is from outside the EU.

He isn’t the answer either

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 10, 2024

shmmeee said:
As I detailed in my reply they plan to reduce planning blockers by allowing on brownfield and giving mayors more power also by building new towns. These are all new policy proposals the current government hasn’t done.

The targets, however, remain the same and there appears to be no desire to make up the shortfall of around 200k houses per year based on net migration alone (there’s more factors to consider).

So best case scenario, we just or marginally beat the existing government target.

Look, I agree that planning reform is necessary, but what do those plans entail and more importantly, how will it lead to more houses being built? (Note: that’s a rhetorical question.)

shmmeee · Jun 10, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
The targets, however, remain the same and there appears to be no desire to make up the shortfall of around 200k houses per year based on net migration alone (there’s more factors to consider).

So best case scenario, we just or marginally beat the existing government target.

Look, I agree that planning reform is necessary, but what do those plans entail and more importantly, how will it lead to more houses being built? (Note: that’s a rhetorical question.)

The plans involve removing the chance for locals to block building by giving powers to metro mayors and dev corps in new towns to override those complaints…

shmmeee · Jun 10, 2024

Scratch a fascist get a Tory. Why this guy is taken any more seriously than the Greens or other joke parties I’ll never understand.

Has he come out with his magic plan to save £35bn yet? Has he explained where the other £15bn from “efficiency savings” is coming from after 14 years of “efficiency savings” (cuts)?

It’s purely about tax cuts for him and his mates as always.

No. But he doesn’t like brown people so 20% in the polls

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 10, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Farage who pushed Brexit which has been an unmitigated failure and did nothing to stop the foreigners coming in. Which is hardly surprising as most immigration here is from outside the EU.

He isn’t the answer either

Well, EU migration has declined so Brexit has delivered on that priority. However, ROW migration is up.

I don’t think Farage is the answer, but the electorate clearly does not trust either Labour or Conservative on this issue. Continued failure on this policy objective puts us on a trajectory of France and/or Germany where genuinely far right parties are leading polls.

I don’t want that, you don’t want that, none of us sane people want that. It will happen if neither main parties has the stomach to address it.

shmmeee · Jun 10, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Well, EU migration has declined so Brexit has delivered on that priority. However, ROW migration is up.

I don’t think Farage is the answer, but the electorate clearly does not trust either Labour or Conservative on this issue. Continued failure on this policy objective puts us on a trajectory of France and/or Germany where genuinely far right parties are leading polls.

I don’t want that, you don’t want that, none of us sane people want that. It will happen if neither main parties has the stomach to address it.

You think the party of “let’s get wave machines to blow the dinghies back” hasn’t got the stomach to tackle immigration?

Or is it maybe that claiming to be able to halt immigration completely is a nonsense policy that’s undeliverable and the likes of Farage know this and are using it to get into power to give themselves tax cuts?

Do you want to discuss boring politics? (10 Viewers)

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