Do you want to discuss boring politics? (231 Viewers)

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

I love how all of those who didn't even vote for the manifesto are the ones most outraged by it being broken, because they can use it as a new stick to beat the Govt with. You can argue all day about the root cause to suit your agenda, but surely you must with your roots, applaud the increase and what it's being used for.

Those who possibly could rightfully be outraged are people like me who voted for them, are paying the increase and don't have huge savings, but after the past 18 months it's a small price to pay and nothing that can't be reversed in time. If anything they should be commended for recognising the shortfall, finding a solution and having the balls to make that change to their direction knowing how unpopular a decision it would be.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 8, 2021

skybluetony176 said:
I keep hearing/reading that there’s a pandemic, we have to pay for it somehow. I can’t see how social care reforms and the financial cost of the pandemic are linked. As far as I can tell we borrowed the money to pay for the pandemic costs and the problems in social care were not caused by the pandemic but by a decade of austerity. Basically the working man is paying for the banking crisis again, first in the form of austerity now again in a tax hike to remedy the effects of austerity. Just more proof that austerity didn’t work and the elite who bought around the banking crisis still get off Scot free. Is that about the size of it?

That about sums it up.

As soon as Johnson started talking about how he'd broken a manifesto pledge but no-one could foresee a pandemic I thought "The social care crisis didn't suddenly appear because of the pandemic. It's been there for more than a decade."

Yet there'll still be plenty who'll accept it as an excuse.

Skybluefaz · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
I love how all of those who didn't even vote for the manifesto are the ones most outraged by it being broken, because they can use it as a new stick to beat the Govt with. You can argue all day about the root cause to suit your agenda, but surely you must with your roots, applaud the increase and what it's being used for.

Those who possibly could rightfully be outraged are people like me who voted for them, are paying the increase and don't have huge savings, but after the past 18 months it's a small price to pay and nothing that can't be reversed in time. If anything they should be commended for recognising the shortfall, finding a solution and having the balls to make that change to their direction knowing how unpopular a decision it would be.

Pathetic

Ccfcisparks · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
I love how all of those who didn't even vote for the manifesto are the ones most outraged by it being broken, because they can use it as a new stick to beat the Govt with. You can argue all day about the root cause to suit your agenda, but surely you must with your roots, applaud the increase and what it's being used for.

Those who possibly could rightfully be outraged are people like me who voted for them, are paying the increase and don't have huge savings, but after the past 18 months it's a small price to pay and nothing that can't be reversed in time. If anything they should be commended for recognising the shortfall, finding a solution and having the balls to make that change to their direction knowing how unpopular a decision it would be.

Unbelievable. A better solution would have been creating a wealth tax. With this the financial gap between the social classes gets bigger... again.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Pathetic

Thanks for your valid counter argument

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Ccfcisparks said:
Unbelievable. A better solution would have been creating a wealth tax. With this the financial gap between the social classes gets bigger... again.

Yeah lets penalise people for trying to save and look after their money in favour of those who piss it up the wall (also it wouldn't have generated anywhere near as much, but don't let that get in the way of a good grandstanding soundbyte)

Skybluefaz · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
Yeah lets penalise people for trying to save and look after their money in favour of those who piss it up the wall

Ha ha, you really are a muppet.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
I love how all of those who didn't even vote for the manifesto are the ones most outraged by it being broken, because they can use it as a new stick to beat the Govt with. You can argue all day about the root cause to suit your agenda, but surely you must with your roots, applaud the increase and what it's being used for.

Those who possibly could rightfully be outraged are people like me who voted for them, are paying the increase and don't have huge savings, but after the past 18 months it's a small price to pay and nothing that can't be reversed in time. If anything they should be commended for recognising the shortfall, finding a solution and having the balls to make that change to their direction knowing how unpopular a decision it would be.

Point is why pick something that is more onerous on those less well-off - the same people who have suffered the most through loss of earnings etc during the pandemic? The rich have been raking it in, but they get off quite nicely from this. Out of all the solutions this was one of the worst in terms of tax hikes.

I'm not outraged at them breaking a manifesto promise - it's what I expect of them. I'm outraged that people keep on falling for it. This is the same stuff other parties were suggesting and were criticised for, mainly by the Tories. But now the Tories are doing it themselves after promising they wouldn't apparently we should applaud them for doing it.

It seems to me you're trying to justify your own vote rather than face the reality that you voted for a bunch of charaltans who don't give the slightest fuck about the 'common man'.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Ha ha, you really are a muppet.

Again insults with no counter, what a treat you really are.

Ccfcisparks · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
Yeah lets penalise people for trying to save and look after their money in favour of those who piss it up the wall (also it wouldn't have generated anywhere near as much, but don't let that get in the way of a good grandstanding soundbyte)

OK what about properly dealing with Tax Havens then? Or is that people trying to save and look after their money by bending the rules?

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Point is why pick something that is more onerous on those less well-off - the same people who have suffered the most through loss of earnings etc during the pandemic? The rich have been raking it in, but they get off quite nicely from this. Out of all the solutions this was one of the worst in terms of tax hikes.

I'm not outraged at them breaking a manifesto promise - it's what I expect of them. I'm outraged that people keep on falling for it. This is the same stuff other parties were suggesting and were criticised for, mainly by the Tories. But now the Tories are doing it themselves after promising they wouldn't apparently we should applaud them for doing it.

It seems to me you're trying to justify your own vote rather than face the reality that you voted for a bunch of charaltans who don't give the slightest fuck about the 'common man'.

Care is for all of us so we need to find a way where most pay. Why do you see that as a tax on the poor? You only pay it if you're earning and the more you earn the more you pay. Low incomes barely affected and those without incomes make no contribution. It's preferable to Income tax as 50% shared by the employer rather than the employee.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
Yeah lets penalise people for trying to save and look after their money in favour of those who piss it up the wall (also it wouldn't have generated anywhere near as much, but don't let that get in the way of a good grandstanding soundbyte)

It's not about 'savings'. Loads of people want savings but don't have enough to do so.

Look at the fortunes of the rich during the pandemic compared to everyone else. They've made a fortune when supposedly the world is being crippled economically by a pandemic. How did they make that much money when the entire global economy is practically at a standstill? They can literally do nothing and make money.

This is about people sitting on huge amounts of wealth in terms of land, property etc. Tax that and you'll have more than enough to cover this tax plus a lot left over.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Ccfcisparks said:
OK what about properly dealing with Tax Havens then? Or is that people trying to save and look after their money by bending the rules?

That's something which no govt has found a solution to and if anything in years of non Conservative rule, increases because more people move their funds away. I also don't see how the two are linked. It's something that should be being looked at in parallel to this move and not instead of.

Skybluefaz · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
Again insults with no counter, what a treat you really are.

You've classified the people who will be giving the care as people who 'piss it up the wall'.

Not looking to argue with you. What's the point? if you found Boris in bed with your wife/husband you'd make him a cup of tea and shake his hand.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
It's not about 'savings'. Loads of people want savings but don't have enough to do so.

Look at the fortunes of the rich during the pandemic compared to everyone else. They've made a fortune when supposedly the world is being crippled economically by a pandemic. How did they make that much money when the entire global economy is practically at a standstill? They can literally do nothing and make money.

This is about people sitting on huge amounts of wealth in terms of land, property etc. Tax that and you'll have more than enough to cover this tax plus a lot left over.

But this isn't a new problem. The haves and have nots have been around for centuries and long before Boris. It will be that way forever unless you advocate Communist rule (and arguably then too for an a small but different number). I'm not saying it's right, but if you can't accept it then you will remain angry. What we can do is look at simple ways to collect revenue and fix what can be fixed. If that means a fiver a week for a few years, then so be it. I'm sure we all make monthly charity dd contributions and I just see this a compulsory one.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
Care is for all of us so we need to find a way where most pay. Why do you see that as a tax on the poor? You only pay it if you're earning and the more you earn the more you pay. Low incomes barely affected and those without incomes make no contribution. It's preferable to Income tax as 50% shared by the employer rather than the employee.

The ceiling on it is pretty low so once you earn over a certain amount you don't pay any more.

So as you say those not earning pay nothing. Those earning loads pay a lot less proportionately than those that don't. So the biggest burden is on those middle income workers.

You missed out a word in your opening sentence. 'Where most ABLE pay'

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
You've classified the people who will be giving the care as people who 'piss it up the wall'.

Not looking to argue with you. What's the point? if you found Boris in bed with your wife/husband you'd make him a cup of tea and shake his hand.

Nice turn, but where I have mentioned the people giving the care? If you're referring to them as poor then you're being disingenuous since they are part of the working class, as am I and I suspect you are too. Fwiw as I earn more, I will pay more into this pot and I think that's fair.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
But this isn't a new problem. The haves and have nots have been around for centuries and long before Boris. It will be that way forever unless you advocate Communist rule (and arguably then too for an a small but different number). I'm not saying it's right, but if you can't accept it then you will remain angry. What we can do is look at simple ways to collect revenue and fix what can be fixed. If that means a fiver a week for a few years, then so be it. I'm sure we all make monthly charity dd contributions and I just see this a compulsory one.

That's the attitude of a cap-doffer. The rich have always got away with it so why even bother trying.

We're all getting butt-fucked by them. But I sure as hell am not going to hand them the lube.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
The ceiling on it is pretty low so once you earn over a certain amount you don't pay any more.

So as you say those not earning pay nothing. Those earning loads pay a lot less proportionately than those that don't. So the biggest burden is on those middle income workers.

You missed out a word in your opening sentence. 'Where most ABLE pay'

It was explained nicely n CWR this morning that someone earning £24k would pay approx £180 pa or £3.50 per week. At the top end it's around £700 pa so I think that's a very fair system indeed.

** edit: don't forget too that at 50k where the limit drops to a reduced % in NI, Income tax increases by considerably more.

Nick · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
It was explained nicely n CWR this morning that someone earning £24k would pay approx £180 pa or £3.50 per week. At the top end it's around £700 pa so I think that's a very fair system indeed.

Meanwhile prices of everything also goes up. Fuel prices, house prices.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Nick said:
Meanwhile prices of everything also goes up. Fuel prices, house prices.

And that has precisely what to do with this? That's inflation and I assume you are increasing your prices if self-employed or getting a raise from your employer in line with inflation (as per pensions do) to cover the increase in costs. Always has been and always will be.

Nick · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
And that has precisely what to do with this? That's inflation and I assume you are increasing your prices if self-employed or getting a raise from your employer in line with inflation (as per pensions do) to cover the increase in costs. Always has been and always will be.

I wish.

The point is, a lot of the people who haven't had a day off during the pandemic now have to pay more out.

Why not have a word with all these pricks who got PPE contracts and ask them to give a bit more back.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
It was explained nicely n CWR this morning that someone earning £24k would pay approx £180 pa or £3.50 per week. At the top end it's around £700 pa so I think that's a very fair system indeed.

** edit: don't forget too that at 50k where the limit drops to a reduced % in NI, Income tax increases by considerably more.

Just because income tax increases doesn't mean there should be a let-off from NI. That's the whole point of the system. Those more able to, pay.

What about the large amounts of income the rich have access to which aren't affected by income tax, like dividends, rental income, investments. A lot of the rich's income doesn't come from salaried income and so is exempt.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Nick said:
I wish.

The point is, a lot of the people who haven't had a day off during the pandemic now have to pay more out.

Why not have a word with all these pricks who got PPE contracts and ask them to give a bit more back.

Is there anyone who hasn't had a day off during the pandemic?
PPE was a shortage like lorry drivers are now. Supply and demand. If you had the foresight to gear up and make PPE at a time when it was required, you'd have had your share. As an example I pretty much cornered the world supply in acrylic for the manufacture of Covid screens for our business with regular containers shippping in from China. It was like rocking horse shit back then and we had to pay daily increasing rates. Now everyone has it and people are falling over themselves o give it away.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
Is there anyone who hasn't had a day off during the pandemic?
PPE was a shortage like lorry drivers are now. Supply and demand. If you had the foresight to gear up and make PPE at a time when it was required, you'd have had your share. As an example I pretty much cornered the world supply in acrylic for the manufacture of Covid screens for our business with regular containers shippping in from China. It was like rocking horse shit back then and we had to pay daily increasing rates. Now everyone has it and people are falling over themselves o give it away.

Except for all those established business that were ignored for start-ups by Tory mates that either didn't send any equipment at all or stuff that wasn't fit for purpose...

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Just because income tax increases doesn't mean there should be a let-off from NI. That's the whole point of the system. Those more able to, pay.

What about the large amounts of income the rich have access to which aren't affected by income tax, like dividends, rental income, investments. A lot of the rich's income doesn't come from salaried income and so is exempt.

You're arguing with yourself now! Tax them more because they earn more but most of their income doesn't come from salary??? You really are mixed up.

We need to encourage people to want to take more on and better themselves. Where is the incentive if you're going to be giving it all away? Already 42p in every additional £ earned is lost over £50k and I'm no more burden on services than you or anyone else. And that's just at source without vat or all of the tax I pay on my fuel etc, so I imagine it's considerably more than that.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Except for all those established business that were ignored for start-ups by Tory mates that either didn't send any equipment at all or stuff that wasn't fit for purpose...

Was it not both? I was trying to get some PPE and it was tough to find. The pace of manufacture from established businesses couldn't keep up and I'd be fairly sure they made plenty too. Others saw a gap in the market and filled it. I agree some took advantage, but as far as I'm aware not at the expense of anyone missing out as nobody could get it to market quickly enough.

Nick · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
Is there anyone who hasn't had a day off during the pandemic?
PPE was a shortage like lorry drivers are now. Supply and demand. If you had the foresight to gear up and make PPE at a time when it was required, you'd have had your share. As an example I pretty much cornered the world supply in acrylic for the manufacture of Covid screens for our business with regular containers shippping in from China. It was like rocking horse shit back then and we had to pay daily increasing rates. Now everyone has it and people are falling over themselves o give it away.

Would have had an advantage if I was related to an MP though, I wouldn't even need to actually supply half the stuff just take the money.

I haven't had a day off sick / furlough / isolating during the pandemic. Yes.

Nick · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
We need to encourage people to want to take more on and better themselves. Where is the incentive if you're going to be giving it all away?

I agree with that to a point but it's not just about getting to the top end tax brackets.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Nick said:
I haven't had a day off sick / furlough / isolating during the pandemic. Yes.

Neither have I, that's not the point since that is true outside of the pandemic too. I had Covid at Christmas, but was my holiday time and then two days working from home.

I meant holiday. Have you not had a day off which was what you said? Not ill or sick but a day off? Weekends, holidays? You make it sound like an 18th century chain gang. I've continued to work right through as have the NHS, but they have all had holiday too and again disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Anyhow, I must get on with some work now. Someone has to keep this country going

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
but surely you must with your roots, applaud the increase

If it was a progressive tax they were raising, I would...

PVA · Sep 8, 2021

rob9872 said:
Yeah lets penalise people for trying to save and look after their money in favour of those who piss it up the wall (also it wouldn't have generated anywhere near as much, but don't let that get in the way of a good grandstanding soundbyte)

Or what's actually happening... Let's penalise those worse off and let the rich just carry on, as always. Tories gonna tory.

Imagine actually voting for these shit cunts.

Skybluefaz · Sep 8, 2021

Nick said:
I haven't had a day off sick / furlough / isolating during the pandemic. Yes.

Same, and I'm going to be forced to look for a new job cos of the rising costs you mentioned.

rob9872 · Sep 8, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
If it was a progressive tax they were raising, I would...

It is

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