D
Deleted member 5849
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Fair.
Also the need to be transparent and give 'value' means you can't pay competitive rates, which means there's a relatively high turnover in some areas, meaning limited experience in certain roles.
Fair.Most of the “waste” I saw in the public sector was a direct result of trying to cut costs ironically.
If you get rid of the managers, all the organisation/admin has to be done by doctors and nurses. Complete waste of their time and expertise. This applies in many areas including the police too.I know it's only part of the issue but money wastage needs sorting out.
If there are people in the NHS, teaching, universities, councils who are happy to take £50k + a year and do as little as possible then there's clearly something wrong. Public sector pay should be related to visible performance. There are middle managers in the NHS who take home £50k + a year and all they can do is come up with shit ideas like team coffee mornings.
Suppliers is another big money wastage issue. Why is the NHS renting furniture from companies for thousands of pounds a week when it's probably cheaper to buy it outright?
The gravy train has to be derailed but that involves the people at the top curtailing their greed. Going to happen anytime soon?
If you get rid of the managers, all the organisation/admin has to be done by doctors and nurses. Complete waste of their time and expertise. This applies in many areas including the police too.
There's always this call to employ more front line professionals and cut managers/admin staff. Wherever this happens it results in the professionals complaining about all the admin they have to do. Often the problem is that things are not managed effectively, meaning that medical expertise is wasted.
He made a criminal error and will hopefully serve time for it for sending infected patients back to care homes at the start of the pandemic.The excellent etc. etc.
But, but... he said he threw a protected ring around care homes. You mean to say that wasn't true??He made a criminal error and will hopefully serve time for it for sending infected patients back to care homes at the start of the pandemic.
The problem is the wrong people are earning the money and it's those same people, the ones at the top on big salaries, who are charged with implementing any cuts. They aren't going to turn round and say their own job isn't needed so you end up with cuts to the frontline workers.
It’s broken because it lacks funding..
Spot on. It’s been the same for years. Not only do they protect themselves they’re part of the problem. They don’t deliver so consultants are brought in at crazy day rates to do what management should be doing.
I don’t blame Nurses for striking. If anyone deserves an inflationary pay rise it’s them. Hopefully it won’t get to that, government is on a massive losing battle on this one
ps the nhs is broken, there needs to be some big, bold, cross party decisions on it and quickly.
To a degree yes. It'd be a lot easier to believe change was being looked at for the right reasons if it were coupled with a massive funding boost at the same time, however.It’s broken because it lacks funding.
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Spot on. It’s been the same for years. Not only do they protect themselves they’re part of the problem. They don’t deliver so consultants are brought in at crazy day rates to do what management should be doing.
I don’t blame Nurses for striking. If anyone deserves an inflationary pay rise it’s them. Hopefully it won’t get to that, government is on a massive losing battle on this one
ps the nhs is broken, there needs to be some big, bold, cross party decisions on it and quickly. It’s not fit for purpose for how we as a country live and use it
It’s broken because it lacks funding.
Is there an existing model you feel works better?
One where the country stops taking it for granted for starters and where processes/management are far better. One where we have bursaries and/or encourage nurses at certain levels without having degrees. Just pumping money in, whilst helping, won’t solve the numerous problems
It is mostly funding which means it is constantly just firefighting and doesn't have the capacity to put in place measures to prevent/delay people getting unwell like anti obesity strategies. This isn’t helped by the Tories' view that such strategies are 'nanny state gone mad'.It’s not just funding, although social care in particular needs significant additional funding as that’s blocking a significant proportion of hospital beds
We have 1.4m people working in the NHS (inc SC), pour in £600bn+ pa and have over 10% of the population with PMI ?? yet you can’t get a GP appt easily and waiting lists aren’t coming down
Basically we have a growing, aging population and an obesity crisis for starters. Our population has grown by 8% (5m) since 2010, something like 65-70% of people are overweight or obese with 1m hospital admissions per annum where obesity was a factor and we have something crazy like a third of beds being taken up by people who don’t need to be in hospital.
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Spot on. It’s been the same for years. Not only do they protect themselves they’re part of the problem. They don’t deliver so consultants are brought in at crazy day rates to do what management should be doing.
I don’t blame Nurses for striking. If anyone deserves an inflationary pay rise it’s them. Hopefully it won’t get to that, government is on a massive losing battle on this one
ps the nhs is broken, there needs to be some big, bold, cross party decisions on it and quickly. It’s not fit for purpose for how we as a country live and use it
He’s having a mare. People keep trolling him by replying to him with Daily Mail articles that say the exact opposite of what he’s trying to claim MHancock achieved. Short memories some people.The excellent etc. etc.
He’s having a mare. People keep trolling him by replying to him with Daily Mail articles that say the exact opposite of what he’s trying to claim MHancock achieved. Short memories some people.
Prison service too. Prisons have tons of inmates that should either be in some sort of social care environment or have been let down by social and healthcare (not their faults, it’s a result of austerity, not the skill and dedication of people involved in it) in dealing with mental health and addiction issues.Problem with schools and the NHS and Police is they are often the last net that catches all the social problems caused elsewhere. Dealing with poverty and mental health and lack of care capacity as much as their primary mission.
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Spot on. It’s been the same for years. Not only do they protect themselves they’re part of the problem. They don’t deliver so consultants are brought in at crazy day rates to do what management should be doing.
I don’t blame Nurses for striking. If anyone deserves an inflationary pay rise it’s them. Hopefully it won’t get to that, government is on a massive losing battle on this one
ps the nhs is broken, there needs to be some big, bold, cross party decisions on it and quickly. It’s not fit for purpose for how we as a country live and use it
Merely replicating the example provided by government around frivolous wastage and overpaying beyond capability and contribution.I know it's only part of the issue but money wastage needs sorting out.
If there are people in the NHS, teaching, universities, councils who are happy to take £50k + a year and do as little as possible then there's clearly something wrong. Public sector pay should be related to visible performance. There are middle managers in the NHS who take home £50k + a year and all they can do is come up with shit ideas like team coffee mornings.
Suppliers is another big money wastage issue. Why is the NHS renting furniture from companies for thousands of pounds a week when it's probably cheaper to buy it outright?
The gravy train has to be derailed but that involves the people at the top curtailing their greed. Going to happen anytime soon?
It’s a good joke but the fact that she blamed him and now he’s blaming her just shows why neither of them should have been allowed anywhere near government ever, let alone PM and chancellor. Aside from the obvious lack of ability they clearly lack the maturity. Pair of children. Just waiting for a joint interview where it’s just them two repeating to each other “I know you are but what am I” for 30 minutes.
Agree with a lot of that. IIRC the NHS has some of the lowest admin costs in the world only Japan and Italy lower in developed countries.
I’m not averse to a European type system, but having seen my girlfriends family have to use GoFundMe to get care for their autistic son doesn’t fill me with confidence.
I wish people would stop being silly about data TBH, especially the Labour Party. We could be world leading and it could lead to huge efficiencies. We had the world leading machine learning company desperate to work on the NHS for free and we basically blocked them because “data scary”.
As I said earlier in the thread a proper investment in government digital capability could reap massive rewards instead of farming it out to places like Capita or other consultancies.
I'm not saying that there doesn't need to be admin staff to do all this stuff, just I feel that they're compensated far too highly in comparison to frontline staff.If you get rid of the managers, all the organisation/admin has to be done by doctors and nurses. Complete waste of their time and expertise. This applies in many areas including the police too.
There's always this call to employ more front line professionals and cut managers/admin staff. Wherever this happens it results in the professionals complaining about all the admin they have to do. Often the problem is that things are not managed effectively, meaning that medical expertise is wasted.
The thing with having the best business minds is that they're business minds. It's the National Health Service, not the National Health Business. Not everything that you would do in a business would work where the emphasis is on the service prvoided, not the returns gained. As you said "that's why doctor's don't run businesses". It's the same in reverse - that's why business people don;t run doctor's.Agree, there could be improvements using better processes, data and non front line people doing their jobs properly. I’ve read before that Sunak is big on data supporting decisions etc so maybe he could drive some change even if only for a couple of years.
Also off the top of my head…
I’d be asking the best business minds (likely retired) to volunteer to sit on the boards of all hospital trusts just to bring a different perspective to processes, savings (away from front line) etc.
Better integration of social care and hospital system needs to be one of the priorities and will need money throwing at it, especially at more carers/their salaries. Major hospitals could maybe have some kind of short term overflow building/space nearby where reduced care/oversight is required to free up beds.
I heard of a successful trial scheme of a GP sitting in A&E dealing with many of the patients immediately on arrival. The only way to bring A&E down is to get people who don’t need to be there home asap and help with bed blocking (fix post hospital care/social care and I think fair a bit of pressure would be released from the system).
Resolve doctors issues with punitive pension tax penalties if they retire later to encourage more to stay on, even part time
Get nurses wages/incentives/flexible working right to reduce amount of those moving to agency. I heard from someone at the QE a lot left the NHS after covid, not for pay/pressure but because they were getting no/poor visibility on shifts and basically little appreciation of this from above
Finally, there needs to be some charges/penalties for certain things like missed appointments. Doctors always say cost to administer will outweigh income generated but that’s why doctors don’t run businesses. It’s not about that, we need a cultural shift in this country to stop people taking the piss and if that means some charges, so be it. Very different but look what happened with supermarkets and plastic bags charges.
As I say, it needs some big, bold, innovative decisions and changes, in addition to targeted investment. I’m just not convinced politicians from any party or senior people within NHS will deliver this but we live in hope
ps apologies all for the long ranty ramble. I just get so frustrated that the only solutions are throw more money at the problem without even trying to resolve the issues that will suck up that extra cash immediately
Agree, there could be improvements using better processes, data and non front line people doing their jobs properly. I’ve read before that Sunak is big on data supporting decisions etc so maybe he could drive some change even if only for a couple of years.
Also off the top of my head…
I’d be asking the best business minds (likely retired) to volunteer to sit on the boards of all hospital trusts just to bring a different perspective to processes, savings (away from front line) etc.
Better integration of social care and hospital system needs to be one of the priorities and will need money throwing at it, especially at more carers/their salaries. Major hospitals could maybe have some kind of short term overflow building/space nearby where reduced care/oversight is required to free up beds.
I heard of a successful trial scheme of a GP sitting in A&E dealing with many of the patients immediately on arrival. The only way to bring A&E down is to get people who don’t need to be there home asap and help with bed blocking (fix post hospital care/social care and I think fair a bit of pressure would be released from the system).
Resolve doctors issues with punitive pension tax penalties if they retire later to encourage more to stay on, even part time
Get nurses wages/incentives/flexible working right to reduce amount of those moving to agency. I heard from someone at the QE a lot left the NHS after covid, not for pay/pressure but because they were getting no/poor visibility on shifts and basically little appreciation of this from above
Finally, there needs to be some charges/penalties for certain things like missed appointments. Doctors always say cost to administer will outweigh income generated but that’s why doctors don’t run businesses. It’s not about that, we need a cultural shift in this country to stop people taking the piss and if that means some charges, so be it. Very different but look what happened with supermarkets and plastic bags charges.
As I say, it needs some big, bold, innovative decisions and changes, in addition to targeted investment. I’m just not convinced politicians from any party or senior people within NHS will deliver this but we live in hope
ps apologies all for the long ranty ramble. I just get so frustrated that the only solutions are throw more money at the problem without even trying to resolve the issues that will suck up that extra cash immediately
You talk as if the NHS at all levels doesn't spend a fortune on expert advice from business including all of the mighty consultancies.Agree, there could be improvements using better processes, data and non front line people doing their jobs properly. I’ve read before that Sunak is big on data supporting decisions etc so maybe he could drive some change even if only for a couple of years.
Also off the top of my head…
I’d be asking the best business minds (likely retired) to volunteer to sit on the boards of all hospital trusts just to bring a different perspective to processes, savings (away from front line) etc.
Better integration of social care and hospital system needs to be one of the priorities and will need money throwing at it, especially at more carers/their salaries. Major hospitals could maybe have some kind of short term overflow building/space nearby where reduced care/oversight is required to free up beds.
I heard of a successful trial scheme of a GP sitting in A&E dealing with many of the patients immediately on arrival. The only way to bring A&E down is to get people who don’t need to be there home asap and help with bed blocking (fix post hospital care/social care and I think fair a bit of pressure would be released from the system).
Resolve doctors issues with punitive pension tax penalties if they retire later to encourage more to stay on, even part time
Get nurses wages/incentives/flexible working right to reduce amount of those moving to agency. I heard from someone at the QE a lot left the NHS after covid, not for pay/pressure but because they were getting no/poor visibility on shifts and basically little appreciation of this from above
Finally, there needs to be some charges/penalties for certain things like missed appointments. Doctors always say cost to administer will outweigh income generated but that’s why doctors don’t run businesses. It’s not about that, we need a cultural shift in this country to stop people taking the piss and if that means some charges, so be it. Very different but look what happened with supermarkets and plastic bags charges.
As I say, it needs some big, bold, innovative decisions and changes, in addition to targeted investment. I’m just not convinced politicians from any party or senior people within NHS will deliver this but we live in hope
ps apologies all for the long ranty ramble. I just get so frustrated that the only solutions are throw more money at the problem without even trying to resolve the issues that will suck up that extra cash immediately
Agree, there could be improvements using better processes, data and non front line people doing their jobs properly. I’ve read before that Sunak is big on data supporting decisions etc so maybe he could drive some change even if only for a couple of years.
Also off the top of my head…
I’d be asking the best business minds (likely retired) to volunteer to sit on the boards of all hospital trusts just to bring a different perspective to processes, savings (away from front line) etc.
Better integration of social care and hospital system needs to be one of the priorities and will need money throwing at it, especially at more carers/their salaries. Major hospitals could maybe have some kind of short term overflow building/space nearby where reduced care/oversight is required to free up beds.
I heard of a successful trial scheme of a GP sitting in A&E dealing with many of the patients immediately on arrival. The only way to bring A&E down is to get people who don’t need to be there home asap and help with bed blocking (fix post hospital care/social care and I think fair a bit of pressure would be released from the system).
Resolve doctors issues with punitive pension tax penalties if they retire later to encourage more to stay on, even part time
Get nurses wages/incentives/flexible working right to reduce amount of those moving to agency. I heard from someone at the QE a lot left the NHS after covid, not for pay/pressure but because they were getting no/poor visibility on shifts and basically little appreciation of this from above
Finally, there needs to be some charges/penalties for certain things like missed appointments. Doctors always say cost to administer will outweigh income generated but that’s why doctors don’t run businesses. It’s not about that, we need a cultural shift in this country to stop people taking the piss and if that means some charges, so be it. Very different but look what happened with supermarkets and plastic bags charges.
As I say, it needs some big, bold, innovative decisions and changes, in addition to targeted investment. I’m just not convinced politicians from any party or senior people within NHS will deliver this but we live in hope
ps apologies all for the long ranty ramble. I just get so frustrated that the only solutions are throw more money at the problem without even trying to resolve the issues that will suck up that extra cash immediately
Management in the NHS is actually incredibly lean. NHS managers make up 2% of the workforce compared to circa 9.5% of the UK workforceIf you get rid of the managers, all the organisation/admin has to be done by doctors and nurses. Complete waste of their time and expertise. This applies in many areas including the police too.
There's always this call to employ more front line professionals and cut managers/admin staff. Wherever this happens it results in the professionals complaining about all the admin they have to do. Often the problem is that things are not managed effectively, meaning that medical expertise is wasted.
Whilst theres always room for improvement, Its not poor management, its lack of funding, and lack of trained professionals, and a lot of that goes back to lack of funding and adequate pay.One where the country stops taking it for granted for starters and where processes/management are far better. One where we have bursaries and/or encourage nurses at certain levels without having degrees. Numerous things need changing. Just pumping money in, whilst helping, won’t solve the various problems
My experience of consultancy firms in the public sector is they are extremely expensive and provide minimal benefit. But the government likes them.You talk as if the NHS at all levels doesn't spend a fortune on expert advice from business including all of the mighty consultancies.
FFYMy experience of consultancy firms in the public sector is they are extremely expensive and provide minimal benefit. But the government likes them because they're usually firms run by their mates..
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