Do you want to discuss boring politics? (221 Viewers)

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 5, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
How can a government on the one hand blame inflation on things outside of their control and then make a commitment to reduce it by 50%

What does 'grow our economy' really mean? Household incomes are a much more important metric and they do not necessarily follow growth in GDP. I wish governments of all outstanding persuasions would stop going on about it.

What good does reducing the national debt do? Explain who benefits and how.

I've said for a long time that we need to both broaden the metrics by which we measure success from being pretty much solely economic and broaden the economic metrics we do use.

Growth rate is largely meaningless as it tells virtually none of the story. A few people getting ridiculously richer while almost everyone else gets poorer and yet it gets touted as success because there's 'growth'. Just for a start it needs median and modal incomes given as much priority as the mean, and increase/decrease in wealth disparity being considered as important (preferably more important) than growth.

But we all know the reasons why the current metrics are used even though they're bullshit - they're the ones that make things look better for those that already have a shitload of money.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 5, 2023

shmmeee said:
It’s all luck innit? I imagine if you had a chemistry degree when petrochemicals were booming or whatever. I’m just lucky that my Dad got me a computer in 1985 and let me get addicted to it really.

I had an industrial placement at a big pharma company, they said I was assured a place on their grad scheme after finishing my degree. About 6 months later the scheme got pulled for financial reasons as in general most chemical companies did around that time with their own graduate positions. Que sera

fernandopartridge · Jan 5, 2023

BBC news is on about Starmer hijacking "take back control" as being strange for a remain voting advocate of a second to referendum.
He's going to have a real credibility battle in the next election in the face of the press (though then again he's busy coveting them so maybe not). His answers are not convincing.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 5, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
BBC news is on about Starmer hijacking "take back control" as being strange for a remain voting advocate of a second to referendum.
He's going to have a real credibility battle in the next election in the face of the press (though then again he's busy coveting them so maybe not). His answers are not convincing.

chiefdave · Jan 6, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
BBC news is on about Starmer hijacking "take back control" as being strange for a remain voting advocate of a second to referendum.
He's going to have a real credibility battle in the next election in the face of the press (though then again he's busy coveting them so maybe not). His answers are not convincing.

I guess the thinking is that meaningless slogans work and by using this one it's difficult for the government to label it a meaningless slogan. But at the same time you then open yourself up to accusations of having no ideas of your own.

skybluetony176 · Jan 6, 2023

Couple of old stories being rehashed about how the Tories “saved” money for the NHS during Hunts time as health minister. Namely he announced a shitload of redundancies aimed at reducing the wage bill although the measures cost £1.9B in redundancies, he then employed an army of agency staff to fill the hole he created at the cost of £3.2B. The NHS also had it’s own internal recruitment agency which saved the NHS millions in paying fees to external agencies, Hunt privatised it to benefit of people with connections to the Tories.

shmmeee · Jan 6, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
Couple of old stories being rehashed about how the Tories “saved” money for the NHS during Hunts time as health minister. Namely he announced a shitload of redundancies aimed at reducing the wage bill although the measures cost £1.9B in redundancies, he then employed an army of agency staff to fill the hole he created at the cost of £3.2B. The NHS also had it’s own internal recruitment agency which saved the NHS millions in paying fees to external agencies, Hunt privatised it to benefit of people with connections to the Tories.

The entire party is just set up to funnel public money into private hands and I’ve no idea how they haven’t been found out.

chiefdave · Jan 6, 2023

shmmeee said:
The entire party is just set up to funnel public money into private hands and I’ve no idea how they haven’t been found out.

It's not even hidden so at this point you have to think people just don't care

The NHS is a prime example. You've got news reports of people calling for ambulances and being told there aren't any leading to them having to get the parent to the hospital by themselves and carrying them across the car park shouting for help

Yet nothing happens, people don't seem that bothered until the point at which they need the service to be there for them

Not hard to imagine a much stronger response from the public if this was happening in other countries

PVA · Jan 6, 2023

chiefdave said:
It's not even hidden so at this point you have to think people just don't care

The NHS is a prime example. You've got news reports of people calling for ambulances and being told there aren't any leading to them having to get the parent to the hospital by themselves and carrying them across the car park shouting for help

Yet nothing happens, people don't seem that bothered until the point at which they need the service to be there for them

Not hard to imagine a much stronger response from the public if this was happening in other countries

People in this country seem to have a built in mechanism where we like to be subservient to people with posh accents without questioning them.

shmmeee · Jan 6, 2023

chiefdave said:
It's not even hidden so at this point you have to think people just don't care

The NHS is a prime example. You've got news reports of people calling for ambulances and being told there aren't any leading to them having to get the parent to the hospital by themselves and carrying them across the car park shouting for help

Yet nothing happens, people don't seem that bothered until the point at which they need the service to be there for them

Not hard to imagine a much stronger response from the public if this was happening in other countries

Some posh bloke took coke and fucked a cougar though Dave. Priorities please.

shmmeee · Jan 6, 2023

PVA said:
People in this country seem to have a built in mechanism where we like to be subservient to people with posh accents without questioning them.

Its called the class system.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 6, 2023

chiefdave said:
I guess the thinking is that meaningless slogans work and by using this one it's difficult for the government to label it a meaningless slogan. But at the same time you then open yourself up to accusations of having no ideas of your own.

It's incredible that they have the bare faced cheek to talk about others having meaningless slogans when the Tories are the absolute masters of it.

Think it's very odd for Starmer to rehash an old one, especially one linked to Brexit. I'm guessing some 'advisors' have suggested that it'd be good to help get him away from the perceived image of EU supporter.

In reality all it'll do is result in the media suggesting he's got no ideas and is making a pathetic attempt to woo Brexit supporters.

But that's what happens when you get the media largely paid for by one side. If the Tories do it it's a masterstroke and connecting with voters, if Labour does it's meaningless and cynical.

Starmer can do as many rebrands and slogans as he likes. As long as most of the media are behind the Tories it's a complete waste of time.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 6, 2023

shmmeee said:
The entire party is just set up to funnel public money into private hands and I’ve no idea how they haven’t been found out.

Because the people best placed to alter public perception are in the group that are getting the money.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 6, 2023

chiefdave said:
It's not even hidden so at this point you have to think people just don't care

The NHS is a prime example. You've got news reports of people calling for ambulances and being told there aren't any leading to them having to get the parent to the hospital by themselves and carrying them across the car park shouting for help

Yet nothing happens, people don't seem that bothered until the point at which they need the service to be there for them

Not hard to imagine a much stronger response from the public if this was happening in other countries

It's been covered a bit on here recently, but the NHS is absolutely on its knees. 'Queues' worse than ever, but we've just had a pandemic, so where is the truth there? How can it be worse now than it was then? There's some difficult questions that need answering.

Net migration for the UK was over half a million for 2022. How can the country cope with that? If the infrastructure (including the health service) is not matching the rate on those numbers, there is going to be a serious strain. At this rate, the population of the UK is doubling in barely more than one lifetime. It isn't sustainable.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 6, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It's been covered a bit on here recently, but the NHS is absolutely on its knees. 'Queues' worse than ever, but we've just had a pandemic, so where is the truth there? How can it be worse now than it was then? There's some difficult questions that need answering.

Net migration for the UK was over half a million for 2022. How can the country cope with that? If the infrastructure (including the health service) is not matching the rate on those numbers, there is going to be a serious strain. At this rate, the population of the UK is doubling in barely more than one lifetime. It isn't sustainable.

Migration actually brings in a net benefit of taxes, meaning more money to spend on services such as the health service than if they weren't there and, as it's a net benefit (they put in more than they take out), then that means an improvement in services is possible compared to if they weren't igrating to the UK.

As for whether the NHS is worse than during a pandemic? It probably isn't (I've had lots of personal experience of waiting in and around casualty the past 2-3 years) but attention is now focussed on it, without a 'reason' for government to hide behind. It's a shame that support has only extended to clapping on doorsteps, really.

chiefdave · Jan 6, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It's been covered a bit on here recently, but the NHS is absolutely on its knees. 'Queues' worse than ever, but we've just had a pandemic, so where is the truth there? How can it be worse now than it was then? There's some difficult questions that need answering.

Net migration for the UK was over half a million for 2022. How can the country cope with that? If the infrastructure (including the health service) is not matching the rate on those numbers, there is going to be a serious strain. At this rate, the population of the UK is doubling in barely more than one lifetime. It isn't sustainable.

Not sure its immigration that's the problem

Sure this twitter thread has been posted before but by pretty much every metric you look at it, waiting lists, available beds, investment, the data shows things have got far far worse under the Conservative government and far worse than in other countries. Yet at the same time we're paying record amounts of tax.

skybluetony176 · Jan 6, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
Migration actually brings in a net benefit of taxes, meaning more money to spend on services such as the health service than if they weren't there and, as it's a net benefit (they put in more than they take out), then that means an improvement in services is possible compared to if they weren't igrating to the UK.

As for whether the NHS is worse than during a pandemic? It probably isn't (I've had lots of personal experience of waiting in and around casualty the past 2-3 years) but attention is now focussed on it, without a 'reason' for government to hide behind.

You also have to consider a good number of doctors and nurses in the UK are immigrants. Isn’t there a scheme at the moment that nurses can come here, work 12 months in the care system (another sector heavily dependent on immigration for workers) to get their nursing qualifications recognised in the UK so they can work in the NHS? Or something like that. The immigration thing is just a lazy right wing trope.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 6, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
Migration actually brings in a net benefit of taxes, meaning more money to spend on services such as the health service than if they weren't there and, as it's a net benefit (they put in more than they take out), then that means an improvement in services is possible compared to if they weren't igrating to the UK.

As for whether the NHS is worse than during a pandemic? It probably isn't (I've had lots of personal experience of waiting in and around casualty the past 2-3 years) but attention is now focussed on it, without a 'reason' for government to hide behind.

You think half a million people extra coming into the country each year is of net benefit to the health service? Dude, come on. How can people complain about the NHS but essentially ignore mass immigration at the same time. It isn't logical whatsoever and I cannot take that argument remotely seriously.

Also regarding the pandemic, and Ambulance queuing times, it is written here:

Gridlock as record number of ambulances queue at A&E in England

"More than 40% of crews were forced to wait at least half an hour to hand over patients in the week up to 1 January.
That is the highest level since records began a decade ago."

How on earth is it worse than the pandemic? Some serious questions need answering.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 6, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You think half a million people extra coming into the country each year is of net benefit to the health service?

They put into the economy more than they take out so yes, the facts are there. You choose to ignre that, I can't help you.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 6, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
You also have to consider a good number of doctors and nurses in the UK are immigrants. Isn’t there a scheme at the moment that nurses can come here, work 12 months in the care system (another sector heavily dependent on immigration for workers) to get their nursing qualifications recognised in the UK so they can work in the NHS? Or something like that. The immigration thing is just a lazy right wing trope.

chiefdave said:
Not sure its immigration that's the problem

Sure this twitter thread has been posted before but by pretty much every metric you look at it, waiting lists, available beds, investment, the data shows things have got far far worse under the Conservative government and far worse than in other countries. Yet at the same time we're paying record amounts of tax.

Immigration isn't a problem with an under strain NHS already at capacity limits? Guys, you are cracking me up seriously.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 6, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Immigration isn't a problem with an under strain NHS already at capacity limits? Guys, you are cracking me up seriously.

The facts are there. Do you accept the facts that migrants are net contributors, or not? If not, why not?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 6, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
The facts are there. Do you accept the facts that migrants are net contributors, or not? If not, why not?

I don't know how anyone can be foolish enough to believe that. I honestly am astounded at some of the responses from people on here who are concerned about the NHS.

Let's import 50 million people. The NHS is going to be better off is it?

Don't make me laugh.

skybluetony176 · Jan 6, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You think half a million people extra coming into the country each year is of net benefit to the health service? Dude, come on. How can people complain about the NHS but essentially ignore mass immigration at the same time. It isn't logical whatsoever and I cannot take that argument remotely seriously.

Also regarding the pandemic, and Ambulance queuing times, it is written here:

Gridlock as record number of ambulances queue at A&E in England

"More than 40% of crews were forced to wait at least half an hour to hand over patients in the week up to 1 January.
That is the highest level since records began a decade ago."

How on earth is it worse than the pandemic? Some serious questions need answering.

16.5% of NHS staff are immigrants. Similar in the care industry too. Immigrants bring more than tax pounds. They’re helping fill voids in NHS staffing requirement. You should at least be acknowledging that if you want an adult conversation about immigration.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 6, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I don't know how anyone can be foolish enough to believe that.

I think I can beat you hands down on the ability to interpret information, my friend. Come back to me when you've learned some critical, objective thinking It's also obviously not s simple as just extrapolating numbers, as who, and why needs to be taken into account.

If we had 50 million successful asylum cases then yes, there would indeed be an issue in terms of cost to the state (just about all humanitarian action tends to come at an economic cost, by definition). As it happens, we don't.

SBT · Jan 6, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I don't know how anyone can be foolish enough to believe that. I honestly am astounded at some of the responses from people on here who are concerned about the NHS.

Let's import 50 million people. The NHS is going to be better off is it?

Don't make me laugh.

You're not one of those people who wants to lower the population for the greater good are you?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 6, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
I think I can beat you hands down on the ability to interpret information, my friend. Come back to me when you've learned some critical, objective thinking

It isn't any fancy kind of thinking. It is simple common sense. More people = more strain on the health service. If the capacity of services aren't growing at the same rate, then something has got to give. If you cannot understand that then I think it is you that probably needs to have a word.

shmmeee · Jan 6, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I don't know how anyone can be foolish enough to believe that. I honestly am astounded at some of the responses from people on here who are concerned about the NHS.

Let's import 50 million people. The NHS is going to be better off is it?

Don't make me laugh.

If they’re 50 million healthcare staff, probably. It’s a function of tax take innit? If we get 50 million working age people paying tax the. Yeah it would cos our tax base would be higher so our receipts would be higher so the budget would be higher. Whether we use that money properly isn’t down to the immigrants.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 6, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
16.5% of NHS staff are immigrants. Similar in the care industry too. Immigrants bring more than tax pounds. They’re helping fill voids in NHS staffing requirement. You should at least be acknowledging that if you want an adult conversation about immigration.

Oh yes, that argument. Immigrants can work in the NHS, let's open the borders.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 6, 2023

Anyway, let's not allow the peril of our health system to go down a stupid, irrelevant tangent, eh.

shmmeee · Jan 6, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Oh yes, that argument. Immigrants can work in the NHS, let's open the borders.

How would you suggest we get more money in and fill holes in the labour market? Serious question.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 6, 2023

shmmeee said:
If they’re 50 million healthcare staff, probably. It’s a function of tax take innit? If we get 50 million working age people paying tax the. Yeah it would cos our tax base would be higher so our receipts would be higher so the budget would be higher. Whether we use that money properly isn’t down to the immigrants.

It doesn't matter. We all know the government cannot be trusted to spend the money properly. More people = more demands from the health service. It is extremely basic, but some people cannot possibly bring themselves to challenge the level of immigration so they end up coming out with absolutely crackpot nonsense.

skybluetony176 · Jan 6, 2023

SBT said:
You're not one of those people who wants to lower the population for the greater good are you?

Like a pound shop Thanos

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 6, 2023

shmmeee said:
If they’re 50 million healthcare staff, probably. It’s a function of tax take innit? If we get 50 million working age people paying tax the. Yeah it would cos our tax base would be higher so our receipts would be higher so the budget would be higher. Whether we use that money properly isn’t down to the immigrants.

Yup and equally, 50 million successful asylum seekers would come at a cost.

It's a stupid extrapolation though, as if we had 50 million healthcare workers there'd be nowhere for them to work, and if we had 50million successful asylum seekers, then the world would have some pretty big issues!

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 6, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
Anyway, let's not allow the peril of our health system to go down a stupid, irrelevant tangent, eh.

How is it irrevent? If we double the population the ambulance queues are going to go down are they?

shmmeee · Jan 6, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It doesn't matter. We all know the government cannot be trusted to spend the money properly. More people = more demands from the health service. It is extremely basic, but some people cannot possibly bring themselves to challenge the level of immigration so they end up coming out with absolutely crackpot nonsense.

This is more an argument for killing off pensioners than preventing immigrants.

I have my issues with mass immigration, mostly social cohesion and ghettoisation. But economics ain’t one of them. By any measure they’re a net good. Tend to be some of the most productive members of society, already had their education paid for, not yet a burden on pension and health systems because of their age.

Do you want to discuss boring politics? (221 Viewers)

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