Do you want to discuss boring politics? (192 Viewers)

shmmeee · Dec 6, 2023

CCFCSteve said:
Im not saying it wouldn’t happen at all but no chance at the same pace/level. Happy to be proved wrong with any examples of the fast growing, innovative communist countries…genuine question.

Even China which is ahead of a lot of western countries on tech nicked most of its intellectual property from the states and some from here/Europe (only now has the West woken up to it). Its basically embraced capitalism in a way which suits its government

Ps problem we’ve had in the West in recent times is unfettered/uncontrolled capitalism will only increasingly work for the few

Did we see a big productivity increase post 1980s reforms here and in the US? Not really. When we are inventing things like the car or the toilet we see significant gains but not so much with Disney+ and iPhones. Capitalism hasn’t slowed down the last 40 years but arguable relevant technological progress for the average man has. Capitalism now is an attention economy. And that’s the issue, it’s not concerned with anything but profit.

Communist Russia did OK at the start of the last century.

CCFCSteve · Dec 6, 2023

shmmeee said:
Did we see a big productivity increase post 1980s reforms here and in the US? Not really. When we are inventing things like the car or the toilet we see significant gains but not so much with Disney+ and iPhones. Capitalism hasn’t slowed down the last 40 years but arguable relevant technological progress for the average man has. Capitalism now is an attention economy. And that’s the issue, it’s not concerned with anything but profit.

As I say, its difficult to defend some of the stuff that happens under ‘capitalisms’ name these days.

Whether we like and/or agree with how technological progress is utilised or harnessed is up for debate but there’s no debate to be had as to what system drove most of it

clint van damme · Dec 6, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
So the Rwanda plan looks more and more like a pointless red meat for the frothers gimmick the more the details come out. What we’ve learned today against a backdrop of a backlog of over 100K claims for asylum is that there’s capacity for 100 claimants in total in Rwanda and we’re bringing vulnerable asylum seekers already in Rwanda (presumably from other parts of Africa) to the UK under the terms of the latest agreement which Sunak refused to put a number on at PMQ’s. If the failed asylum seekers we send there commit a crime while in Rwanda, Rwanda are sending them back to the UK immediately where we’ll have to deal with them again. Chris Phipps suggesting on the TV rounds this morning we’ll then attempt to send them back to their own country which begs the question why didn’t we try that in the first place. Presumably the answer is we can’t.

Also worth pointing out that we’ve spanked £140 million on this to date. Imagine if we’d just put that money into dealing with the backlog helping empty hotels and filling the labour shortage with the successful claimants. The lengths this government will go to for the amusement of gammons.

We have managed to send one useless freeloader over there this week, but perhaps I shouldn't talk about the home secretary like that

skybluetony176 · Dec 6, 2023

clint van damme said:
We have managed to send one useless freeloader over there this week, but perhaps I shouldn't talk about the home secretary like that

We’ve sent more Home Secretary’s there than we have asylum seekers. He’s the third.

wingy · Dec 6, 2023

CCFCSteve said:
Im not saying it wouldn’t happen at all but no chance at the same pace/level. Happy to be proved wrong with any examples of the fast growing, innovative communist countries…genuine question.

Even China which is ahead of a lot of western countries on tech nicked most of its intellectual property from the states and some from here/Europe (only now has the West woken up to it). Its basically embraced capitalism in a way which suits its government

Ps problem we’ve had in the West in recent times is unfettered/uncontrolled capitalism which is only increasingly working for the few. Push back is coming

It's not capitalism I don't think it's possible to say anymore, another word?

Deleted member 9744 · Dec 6, 2023

skybluetony176 said:
So the Rwanda plan looks more and more like a pointless red meat for the frothers gimmick the more the details come out. What we’ve learned today against a backdrop of a backlog of over 100K claims for asylum is that there’s capacity for 100 claimants in total in Rwanda and we’re bringing vulnerable asylum seekers already in Rwanda (presumably from other parts of Africa) to the UK under the terms of the latest agreement which Sunak refused to put a number on at PMQ’s. If the failed asylum seekers we send there commit a crime while in Rwanda, Rwanda are sending them back to the UK immediately where we’ll have to deal with them again. Chris Phipps suggesting on the TV rounds this morning we’ll then attempt to send them back to their own country which begs the question why didn’t we try that in the first place. Presumably the answer is we can’t.

Also worth pointing out that we’ve spanked £140 million on this to date. Imagine if we’d just put that money into dealing with the backlog helping empty hotels and filling the labour shortage with the successful claimants. The lengths this government will go to for the amusement of gammons.

Inexplicably I can't seem to find the Taxpayers Alliance's report on this.

I think the £140 million is just what we have given to Rwanda. Of course the real cost must be much greater, especially the legal costs, not to mention all the Government, official and Parliamentary time and resources.

I think this is the biggest indicator of just how far we have lurched to the right in recent years. 'Sending them all back to Africa' was of course the principle policy of the National Front in the 70s and 80s, and was viewed as extreme at that time. Yet no condemnation of it on principle from Labour, they just focus on the Tories failure to tackle 'the problem of immigration'. Depressing times.

fernandopartridge · Dec 6, 2023

shmmeee said:
I do. Scientific progress has happened under all kinds of economic systems, even communism. Unless we think the wheel was VC backed.

The expertise vested in the private sector in any case is often a result of public investment in education and research anyway.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

skybluetony176 · Dec 6, 2023

Deleted member 9744 said:
Inexplicably I can't seem to find the Taxpayers Alliance's report on this.

I think the £140 million is just what we have given to Rwanda. Of course the real cost must be much greater, especially the legal costs, not to mention all the Government, official and Parliamentary time and resources.

I think this is the biggest indicator of just how far we have lurched to the right in recent years. 'Sending them all back to Africa' was of course the principle policy of the National Front in the 70s and 80s, and was viewed as extreme at that time. Yet no condemnation of it on principle from Labour, they just focus on the Tories failure to tackle 'the problem of immigration'. Depressing times.

IIRC the £140M is just for the properties and 5 years of maintenance. The properties were supposed to be affordable housing for Rwandans but we’ve essentially stole them, although no doubt we’ve paid over the odds for them. Even if they get a property each we’ve apparently brought 100 properties based on that being the maximum amount of individuals they’re taking in a developing African country where the average wage is £161 per month we’ve brought affordable homes with 5 years maintenance at over a million pounds each. Don’t add up.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 6, 2023

tbh how many have or haven't gone to Rwanda distracts from the main message that we're abdicating our responsibility to desperate people in coming up with such a policy in the first place.

PVA · Dec 6, 2023

Imagine coming up with a policy where you have to insert 'notwithstanding UK and international law' in the key summary

PVA · Dec 6, 2023

And then imagine it's too toxic for Rwanda

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 6, 2023

PVA said:
Imagine coming up with a policy where you have to insert 'notwithstanding UK and international law' in the key summary

I suppose they are literally illegal laws, at least they’re right there.

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 6, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I suppose they are literally illegal laws, at least they’re right there.

Madness

skybluetony176 · Dec 6, 2023

PVA said:
And then imagine it's too toxic for Rwanda

Sure I remember reading that the £120M is non refundable, not sure about the extra £20M or any subsequent payments we may have made.

CCFCSteve · Dec 6, 2023

wingy said:
It's not capitalism I don't think it's possible to say anymore, another word?

problem is greeds just taken over

CCFCSteve · Dec 6, 2023

PVA said:
Imagine coming up with a policy where you have to insert 'notwithstanding UK and international law' in the key summary

Not enough for some in the party still by all accounts

Said before Sunak should’ve called all the nutters out day one and removed the whip if necessary. All too late now and we’re left with a government scrambling together dodgy policy on the hoof which pleases nobody

fernandopartridge · Dec 6, 2023

This little weasel has resigned

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Deleted member 5849 · Dec 6, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
This little weasel has resigned

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I was naive enough to think somebody had principles over the policy itself. More fool me!

CCFCSteve · Dec 6, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
This little weasel has resigned

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Seen which way the winds blowing

strange as he’s suddenly sided with Bravermann when he was previously sunaks mate. Maybe Bravermann was looking after him when they worked together

wingy · Dec 6, 2023

Oh I don't know I can see an electoral process in enough dissaray that it's scrapped on some pretext of emergency!

Deleted member 9744 · Dec 6, 2023

PVA said:
Imagine coming up with a policy where you have to insert 'notwithstanding UK and international law' in the key summary

It's not just a policy it's a law to say that something that isn't true is true. It really is incompatible with being a democracy let alone international law.

shmmeee · Dec 6, 2023

Call me cynical but, timing is sus. Look at winter figures. I’m saying well see the usual Jan drop cos of weather, he’ll claim a success and call an election.

shmmeee · Dec 6, 2023

Also 45 people per *small* boat *average*

CCFCSteve · Dec 7, 2023

shmmeee said:
Call me cynical but, timing is sus. Look at winter figures. I’m saying well see the usual Jan drop cos of weather, he’ll claim a success and call an election.

View attachment 32687

There’s always been rumour that an election would be called before numbers increased over late spring/summer when they’re likely to spike again. Just don’t see economic conditions being great for an election but Sunak might not have a choice if the nutters rebel and/or policy gets stuck in lords (which could be used as justification to go to the country). The bizarre thing is I think ‘boat numbers’ have reduced this year in particular economic migrants from Albania (significant reduction/increased returns this year and last) but nobody appreciates this as the nutters are focussed on Rwanda rather than singing their own praises in the press

Also comedy that Bravermann is still kicking up a stink when ‘legal’ numbers were out of control on her watch. Politics is a strange old game

wingy · Dec 7, 2023

CCFCSteve said:
There’s always been rumour that an election would be called before numbers increased over late spring/summer when they’re likely to spike again. Just don’t see economic conditions being great for an election but Sunak might not have a choice if the nutters rebel and/or policy gets stuck in lords (which could be used as justification to go to the country). The bizarre thing is I think ‘boat numbers’ have reduced this year in particular economic migrants from Albania (significant reduction/increased returns this year and last) but nobody appreciates this as the nutters are focussed on Rwanda rather than singing their own praises in the press

Also comedy that Bravermann is still kicking up a stink when ‘legal’ numbers were out of control on her watch. Politics is a strange old game

It won't matter I don't think?

CCFCSteve · Dec 7, 2023

wingy said:
It won't matter I don't think?

Damage limitation

rob9872 · Dec 7, 2023

shmmeee said:
Call me cynical but, timing is sus. Look at winter figures. I’m saying well see the usual Jan drop cos of weather, he’ll claim a success and call an election.

View attachment 32687

Tbf anyone brave enough to row the seas in a dinghy in January, should be allowed a free pass and a trial to make the GB Olympic squad.

Deleted member 9744 · Dec 7, 2023

CCFCSteve said:
There’s always been rumour that an election would be called before numbers increased over late spring/summer when they’re likely to spike again. Just don’t see economic conditions being great for an election but Sunak might not have a choice if the nutters rebel and/or policy gets stuck in lords (which could be used as justification to go to the country). The bizarre thing is I think ‘boat numbers’ have reduced this year in particular economic migrants from Albania (significant reduction/increased returns this year and last) but nobody appreciates this as the nutters are focussed on Rwanda rather than singing their own praises in the press

Also comedy that Bravermann is still kicking up a stink when ‘legal’ numbers were out of control on her watch. Politics is a strange old game

The reality is that stopping the boats would not feed people who can't afford food or heat their houses or indeed reduce homelessness. It also won't speed up proples' operations or ability to see a doctor or reduce the interest they pay on their mortgage. It's an attempt at distraction from the Government's failures over the last 13 years but I think it's irrelevant now.

shmmeee · Dec 7, 2023

Deleted member 9744 said:
It's not just a policy it's a law to say that something that isn't true is true. It really is incompatible with being a democracy let alone international law.

We’ve had loads of laws that do that.

CCFCSteve said:
There’s always been rumour that an election would be called before numbers increased over late spring/summer when they’re likely to spike again. Just don’t see economic conditions being great for an election but Sunak might not have a choice if the nutters rebel and/or policy gets stuck in lords (which could be used as justification to go to the country). The bizarre thing is I think ‘boat numbers’ have reduced this year in particular economic migrants from Albania (significant reduction/increased returns this year and last) but nobody appreciates this as the nutters are focussed on Rwanda rather than singing their own praises in the press

Also comedy that Bravermann is still kicking up a stink when ‘legal’ numbers were out of control on her watch. Politics is a strange old game

Saw something interesting. YouGov salience of immigration as n issue for voters.

As a whole immigration has been dropping as a concern since 2016, to way below where it was. But it’s come up again. However only for Tory voters. Labour voters it’s still low, Tory voters it’s gone up to 2015 levels.

I do wonder if all the focus on it from Tories doesn’t do them more harm than good. I’ve seen someone say Sunaks big issue is he keeps focusing voters on things he can’t fix, possibly due to backbench pressure.

shmmeee · Dec 7, 2023

Deleted member 9744 said:
The reality is that stopping the boats would not feed people who can't afford food or heat their houses or indeed reduce homelessness. It also won't speed up proples' operations or ability to see a doctor or reduce the interest they pay on their mortgage. It's an attempt at distraction from the Government's failures over the last 13 years but I think it's irrelevant now.

It’s the idea they all get benefits that gets me. I’ve seen quite a lot of actual hard right racist stuff on Twitter recently (Thanks Elmo), and it’s literally TikTok’s of a non white person with a council house and a bunch of racists going “See!! Illegals getting British people’s houses!!”

It would be good if there was a PR campaign about what exactly you get. Afaik benefits for immigrants are significantly below brits and for illegals it’s literally nothing.

wingy · Dec 7, 2023

Irrelevant,they only purpose of the boats is a distraction,penny finally dropped for me around two weeks ago to mask the fact that we've imported 750k officially.

skybluetony176 · Dec 7, 2023

CCFCSteve said:
There’s always been rumour that an election would be called before numbers increased over late spring/summer when they’re likely to spike again. Just don’t see economic conditions being great for an election but Sunak might not have a choice if the nutters rebel and/or policy gets stuck in lords (which could be used as justification to go to the country). The bizarre thing is I think ‘boat numbers’ have reduced this year in particular economic migrants from Albania (significant reduction/increased returns this year and last) but nobody appreciates this as the nutters are focussed on Rwanda rather than singing their own praises in the press

Also comedy that Bravermann is still kicking up a stink when ‘legal’ numbers were out of control on her watch. Politics is a strange old game

This is where Sunak really has issues. He already has a big majority, in the unlikely event he wins even with a big majority nothing changes for him. He still has a lunatic fringe, his party is still a battleground and he won’t last a year as leader. The clamber for a headline to throw the nutters way has severely backfired and put the Tories in a position where the only possible outcome is they tear themselves apart.

CCFCSteve · Dec 7, 2023

wingy said:
Irrelevant,they only purpose of the boats is a distraction,penny finally dropped for me around two weeks ago to mask the fact that we've imported 750k officially.

Exactly. It’s crazy to solely focus on 50-60k, a decent proportion of which will have genuine asylum claims, when net official figures as you say are 750k (immigration was 1.2m !!! with emigration 500k). Drop in the ocean so to speak That’s why Bravermann jumping up and down is so comical….and her cheerleaders even more amusing…she oversaw those official numbers !!

Deleted member 9744 · Dec 7, 2023

shmmeee said:
It’s the idea they all get benefits that gets me. I’ve seen quite a lot of actual hard right racist stuff on Twitter recently (Thanks Elmo), and it’s literally TikTok’s of a non white person with a council house and a bunch of racists going “See!! Illegals getting British people’s houses!!”

It would be good if there was a PR campaign about what exactly you get. Afaik benefits for immigrants are significantly below brits and for illegals it’s literally nothing.

Reviews have constantly shown that immigrants add to the economy. This latest crackdown on legal immigration will be catastrophic for the social care sector and to a slightly lesser degree the health service.

Deleted member 9744 · Dec 7, 2023

shmmeee said:
We’ve had loads of laws that do that.

Saw something interesting. YouGov salience of immigration as n issue for voters.

As a whole immigration has been dropping as a concern since 2016, to way below where it was. But it’s come up again. However only for Tory voters. Labour voters it’s still low, Tory voters it’s gone up to 2015 levels.

I do wonder if all the focus on it from Tories doesn’t do them more harm than good. I’ve seen someone say Sunaks big issue is he keeps focusing voters on things he can’t fix, possibly due to backbench pressure.

So what laws do we currently have that force the Courts to judge something to be true that objectively isn't true? I do think this really is a first.

Do you want to discuss boring politics? (192 Viewers)

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