Emperor's New Clothes (13 Viewers)

PVA · Jan 17, 2023

There's only so many times you can watch the ball played into Allen on the edge of the box with has back to goal only for a defender to gently nudge him in the back and win the ball without tearing your hair out.

When it's played into Palmer (or O'Hare) there's a layoff, a turn, a clever touch. With Allen he's just a split second behind anyone else.

I maintain that the plan all along was to play Palmer and O'Hare behind Gyokeres but fitness has not allowed it.

There is no chance we were willing to spend that wage on Palmer for him to sit on the bench watching Allen break down another attack.

Sky Blue Harry H · Jan 17, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
What we don't seem willing to do is accept those stamina issues and work with them

Are you referring to people on this forum, or MR and his staff?

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 17, 2023

Grendel said:
Well no other club has managed it and the fact he wasn’t deemed fit enough at the start of the seasons suggests he hadn’t kept himself fit or he can’t - does he work hard enough himself to address that no one knows but the likes of Stern John (who had no pace) and Huckerby (lots of pace but had to conserve energy to attack) were forwards.

Palmer is a central midfielder in a team whose ethos generally over the last 3 years is as much cover and closing down off the ball as on it. He doesn’t. That’s why Allen starts games and in a fully fit squad Palmer doesn’t. The teams success is largely built on pressing opposition winning back and moving forward. Hamer Allen and o hare have phenomenal stamina. It’s needed for how we play.

It’s a high risk signing

Yeah we either have to change to accommodate him, or he needs to improve in areas where arguably he can't.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 17, 2023

Sky Blue Harry H said:
Are you referring to people on this forum, or MR and his staff?

The club. We appear to want him to play in the same way as our other midfielders and, so far, that hasn't worked out.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 17, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
Yeah we either have to change to accommodate him, or he needs to improve in areas where arguably he can't.

He was clearly signed to partner someone who will have spent around 80-90% of the season injured.

skybluestub · Jan 17, 2023

I quite like Palmer, I know his lack of stamina/match fitness hinders us, especially with such a small squad at the moment. Sometimes his movement and vision is genius, sometimes he overdoes it and tries too many flicks and it's frustrating. When he played alongside O'Hare, we saw the best of him so far this season. Hopefully, if the Paterson deal is done soon...having him there will aid Palmer's game, and provide some much needed support to Vik.

There are a number of worse players that we've signed in recent years which proved to be money poured down the drain

Otis · Jan 17, 2023

Small margins isn't it. He hit the post twice in one game recently.

AOM · Jan 17, 2023

I really like Palmer, but if we were to lose O'Hare for whatever reason, I'd want another player in for that position who is a like for like replacement who gives the team what O'Hare does.
Not saying it's a bad thing either, Palmer is a different player, but O'Hare's energy and pressing are vital for how we play imo

Deleted member 9744 · Jan 17, 2023

AOM said:
I really like Palmer, but if we were to lose O'Hare for whatever reason, I'd want another player in for that position who is a like for like replacement who gives the team what O'Hare does.
Not saying it's a bad thing either, Palmer is a different player, but O'Hare's energy and pressing are vital for how we play imo

It's such a pity that we didn't get many games with the two of them together. They brought a great balance to our play and some of the interplay between them showed real promise like the goal against Blackpool.

Esoterica · Jan 17, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
The club. We appear to want him to play in the same way as our other midfielders and, so far, that hasn't worked out.

Something I feel we've seen quite a bit of over the last few seasons where we take players and then try to turn them into something else. Biamou talked about it in relation to the extensive training he was asked to do in coming short for the ball and hold up play, how he found it very alien to his natural game. Now I can understand it when it's a cheap punt like Biamou.
But then players like Chaplin who we paid good money for and then asked to play far too deep, Godden this season had been clearly instructed to run channels and spent relatively little time in the box, very far away from his strengths. Wouldn't be surprised if we'd done something similar with Walker too.

Always struck me as quite an odd thing to do.

Grendel · Jan 17, 2023

PVA said:
There's only so many times you can watch the ball played into Allen on the edge of the box with has back to goal only for a defender to gently nudge him in the back and win the ball without tearing your hair out.

When it's played into Palmer (or O'Hare) there's a layoff, a turn, a clever touch. With Allen he's just a split second behind anyone else.

I maintain that the plan all along was to play Palmer and O'Hare behind Gyokeres but fitness has not allowed it.

There is no chance we were willing to spend that wage on Palmer for him to sit on the bench watching Allen break down another attack.

How many games did Palmer start when O Hare was playing this season?

Grendel · Jan 17, 2023

Deleted member 9744 said:
It's such a pity that we didn't get many games with the two of them together. They brought a great balance to our play and some of the interplay between them showed real promise like the goal against Blackpool.

Palmer played as the lone striker against Blackpool - I think they started one other game together - Wigan - and we did not score until Palmer went off

PVA · Jan 17, 2023

Grendel said:
How many games did Palmer start when O Hare was playing this season?

You keep telling us how expensive Palmer is, £3m the latest figure you've made up, so you really think we'd spend £3m on a player to sit on the bench behind a bloke who had 3 goals and 2 assists in 3 full Championship seasons?

Deleted member 9744 · Jan 17, 2023

Grendel said:
Palmer played as the lone striker against Blackpool - I think they started one other game together - Wigan - and we did not score until Palmer went off

That's why I said it was a pity that they didn't play together more.

Grendel · Jan 17, 2023

Deleted member 9744 said:
That's why I said it was a pity that they didn't play together more.

My point was the manager when he could chose not to

Deleted member 9744 · Jan 17, 2023

Grendel said:
My point was the manager when he could chose not to

Maybe, although I think it was due to Palmer's fitness. I feel it would be irrational to play Allen ahead of a fully fit Palmer.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 17, 2023

I don't think he is anywhere near as good as some people are trying to make out. He makes an ok contribution and adds something different, I certainly appreciate his efforts because he does try, but his goal contributions aren't anywhere near enough. I know I have been banging this drum on here for a while, but our midfield is very goal shy, and he isn't seeming to do much to improve that.

We seem to keep hearing:

- It doesn't matter if O'Hare scores as he does enough elsewhere
- Palmer looks like scoring and just needs more time (how much more time does he need?) - so far it is 1 goal in 22 appearances
- It isn't Sheaf's job to score
- It isn't the wingbacks job to score

Our defence might have crumbled, but we have a major issue in scoring goals that keeps getting overlooked. With Palmer, I can't see through (so far at least) that he isn't making that better. I know we had a small budget in the summer, but he obviously took a big chunk of that. I can't really accept that it has been worth it so far. Of course, that might change, but his history suggests that it probably won't.

Nick · Jan 17, 2023

Esoterica said:
Something I feel we've seen quite a bit of over the last few seasons where we take players and then try to turn them into something else. Biamou talked about it in relation to the extensive training he was asked to do in coming short for the ball and hold up play, how he found it very alien to his natural game. Now I can understand it when it's a cheap punt like Biamou.
But then players like Chaplin who we paid good money for and then asked to play far too deep, Godden this season had been clearly instructed to run channels and spent relatively little time in the box, very far away from his strengths. Wouldn't be surprised if we'd done something similar with Walker too.

Always struck me as quite an odd thing to do.

With Walker we seem to use him as a target man a lot.

Sky Blue Harry H · Jan 17, 2023

Anybody looking forward to signing someone soon, so that we can dissect their game and decide they are rubbish too? Incremental is what MR has constantly spouted, and for me that is what he seems to be trying to do, Bound to make some mistakes along the way, but I do trust him to do that. next season might be a tricky one, when there will be quite a turnover, but I'd trust MR to manage the process over anybody else. I'm actually looking forward to it (if not the loss of obvious favourites)

shmmeee · Jan 17, 2023

Grendel said:
My point was the manager when he could chose not to

When have both been fully fit?

shmmeee · Jan 17, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I don't think he is anywhere near as good as some people are trying to make out. He makes an ok contribution and adds something different, I certainly appreciate his efforts because he does try, but his goal contributions aren't anywhere near enough. I know I have been banging this drum on here for a while, but our midfield is very goal shy, and he isn't seeming to do much to improve that.

We seem to keep hearing:

- It doesn't matter if O'Hare scores as he does enough elsewhere
- Palmer looks like scoring and just needs more time (how much more time does he need?) - so far it is 1 goal in 22 appearances
- It isn't Sheaf's job to score
- It isn't the wingbacks job to score

Our defence might have crumbled, but we have a major issue in scoring goals that keeps getting overlooked. With Palmer, I can't see through (so far at least) that he isn't making that better. I know we had a small budget in the summer, but he obviously took a big chunk of that. I can't really accept that it has been worth it so far. Of course, that might change, but his history suggests that it probably won't.

The way we set up has never provided goal scorers though. Robins is the sort of manager happy to win 1-0 or 2-1 at a push, we rarely score 3 or more. The reason defence is more of an issue is because the way we play relies on it.

Palmer is having his worse spell in terms of goals with us right now, it’s only really the lone striker in our system who ever scored regularly. Our wingbacks are very defensive, even our AMs are expected to spend a lot of time in our half pressing.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 17, 2023

Deleted member 9744 said:
although I think it was due to Palmer's fitness

...which therefore makes him not a successful signing as of yet, regardless of the reason.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 17, 2023

Esoterica said:
Something I feel we've seen quite a bit of over the last few seasons where we take players and then try to turn them into something else. Biamou talked about it in relation to the extensive training he was asked to do in coming short for the ball and hold up play, how he found it very alien to his natural game. Now I can understand it when it's a cheap punt like Biamou.
But then players like Chaplin who we paid good money for and then asked to play far too deep, Godden this season had been clearly instructed to run channels and spent relatively little time in the box, very far away from his strengths. Wouldn't be surprised if we'd done something similar with Walker too.

Always struck me as quite an odd thing to do.

Can add JCH to that, too.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 17, 2023

shmmeee said:
The way we set up has never provided goal scorers though. Robins is the sort of manager happy to win 1-0 or 2-1 at a push, we rarely score 3 or more. The reason defence is more of an issue is because the way we play relies on it.

Palmer is having his worse spell in terms of goals with us right now, it’s only really the lone striker in our system who ever scored regularly. Our wingbacks are very defensive, even our AMs are expected to spend a lot of time in our half pressing.

I understand what you are saying, and I think that's also partly why the spotlight goes onto them. I actually don't think we are a bad team, I just think our goal threat could be so much better. It would take a lot of pressure off the defence for a start, and if we are missing players at the back of whom normally help keep it tight (McFadzean being the main one right now), it would be wise to change tactics anyway, wouldn't it?

Some extended shooting practice might help regardless! Some of the clowns on here could have put chances away we've seen being missed.

Esoterica · Jan 17, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
Can add JCH to that, too.

Yes, that’s another great example. Forgot about him. Seems to be a lot of the forward players we’ve paid money for too. Why do you think we do it?

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 17, 2023

Esoterica said:
Yes, that’s another great example. Forgot about him. Seems to be a lot of the forward players we’ve paid money for too. Why do you think we do it?

My wild stab would be that Robins considers instinctive goalscoring positioning harder to, or impossible to, train, but thinks they can learn the all-round game, so thinks he can add value to players by making them more than just a poacher.

Hasn't really worked out though!

shmmeee · Jan 17, 2023

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I understand what you are saying, and I think that's also partly why the spotlight goes onto them. I actually don't think we are a bad team, I just think our goal threat could be so much better. It would take a lot of pressure off the defence for a start, and if we are missing players at the back of whom normally help keep it tight (McFadzean being the main one right now), it would be wise to change tactics anyway, wouldn't it?

Some extended shooting practice might help regardless! Some of the clowns on here could have put chances away we've seen being missed.

I do wonder if half the problem if players get so few chances they panic when it comes their way. I agree generally though, I’d like to see us be a lot more attacking.

SkyblueDad · Jan 17, 2023

Forgetting the rumoured addition of Jamie Paterson for me a strike partner for Vik is a priority, can’t wait for Matty Godden either, get a decent one perhaps a bit different style wise it will imo make Vik more dangerous and a better player for us.

PVA · Jan 17, 2023

It's not a case of not creating enough chances. We create plenty, we're just shit at taking them.

We're 8th for Expected goals, but 19th for goals scored.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 17, 2023

PVA said:
It's not a case of not creating enough chances. We create plenty, we're just shit at taking them.

We're 8th for Expected goals, but 19th for goals scored.

That's actually gone down to 20th now. Level with Wigan in 21st.

Frostie · Jan 17, 2023

As last season, we take a lot of shots from poor situations. We have more long shots than any other team in the league.

shmmeee · Jan 17, 2023

Frostie said:
As last season, we take a lot of shots from poor situations. We have more long shots than any other team in the league.

IMO our problem is final ball from the AMs and WBs, which is why I want Palmer and the new WBs to do well.

Nick · Jan 17, 2023

shmmeee said:
IMO our problem is final ball from the AMs and WBs, which is why I want Palmer and the new WBs to do well.

A lot of the time that relies on somebody in front of them or in the box.

Gyo works the channels a lot so half the time the box is empty.

shmmeee · Jan 17, 2023

Nick said:
A lot of the time that relies on somebody in front of them or in the box.

Gyo works the channels a lot so half the time the box is empty.

This as well. Allen is good at arriving in the box but fucking useless when the ball actually gets to him.

Would love to see another striker or Godden back and 352 with Palmer alongside Sheaf and Hamer.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 17, 2023

Palmer hasn't been great, but he's been far from poor. I think 'decent' would be a fair assessment so far.

He does put in effort and is willing to put in a tackle, but it is frustrating that he seems to struggle to play a full 90minutes. There are times when I feel he tries something fancy when a more simple ball is probably the better option, but he is a player that can get us moving forward. His goal return isn't great but that seems to be a problem throughout the squad, so could be more to do with the tactics and training.

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