EU procedure update (1 Viewer)

tisza · Feb 12, 2020

Just had a meeting with my lawyers this am about launching a complaint with Commission against a local authority here in Hungary. Have to bypass Hungarian courts as too many political appointees (same party as local authority) and they can tie us up for at 6 years.
Anyway they said that the Commission has to decide within 12 months of receiving the complaint whether it merits a formal investigation. I'm sure I saw reference in some of the press articles that "our" complaint was made in Feb 2019 (stand to be corrected).
So some sort of news could be due soon.

Colin Steins Smile · Feb 12, 2020

tisza said:
Just had a meeting with my lawyers this am about launching a complaint with Commission against a local authority here in Hungary. Have to bypass Hungarian courts as too many political appointees (same party as local authority) and they can tie us up for at 6 years.
Anyway they said that the Commission has to decide within 12 months of receiving the complaint whether it merits a formal investigation. I'm sure I saw reference in some of the press articles that "our" complaint was made in Feb 2019 (stand to be corrected).
So some sort of news could be due soon.

Thanks Tisza - great insight into the process. Obviously, without MEPs we don't have any means to check the internal discussions of the EU, so your post is most welcome

Liquid Gold · Feb 12, 2020

Something to be putting questions to Fisher, Boddy and sisu then. Maybe pushing for a date when the complaint was made will ease the worries of those so desperate to avoid taking on the indemnity as they can be seen to be going at both sides.

NAH!

OffenhamSkyBlue · Feb 12, 2020

According to the Commission guidance on how to manage state aid (including complaints relating to it):-
"The complainant shall in any case receive a substantiated preliminary assessment letter within one year of the receipt of the complaint."
The complainant then has one month to act. I'm not entirely sure what this last bit means, but generally the complainant could act to challenge the decision.
I have only had a very brief time to skim through 256 pages of legalese, so this may not be definitive, but it supports what tisza was saying.

SkyBlueCRJ · Feb 12, 2020

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
According to the Commission guidance on how to manage state aid (including complaints relating to it):-
"The complainant shall in any case receive a substantiated preliminary assessment letter within one year of the receipt of the complaint."
The complainant then has one month to act. I'm not entirely sure what this last bit means, but generally the complainant could act to challenge the decision.
I have only had a very brief time to skim through 256 pages of legalese, so this may not be definitive, but it supports what tisza was saying.

Realistically, given their previous record it's more than likely that SISU would challenge the decision if it didn't fall in their favour - as is their right I suppose. Frustrating all the same.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Feb 12, 2020

SkyBlueCRJ said:
Realistically, given their previous record it's more than likely that SISU would challenge the decision if it didn't fall in their favour - as is their right I suppose. Frustrating all the same.

True - but it looks like if they don't act within a month, they are deemed not to have acted!

SkyBlueDom26 · Feb 12, 2020

Grendel · Feb 12, 2020

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
According to the Commission guidance on how to manage state aid (including complaints relating to it):-
"The complainant shall in any case receive a substantiated preliminary assessment letter within one year of the receipt of the complaint."
The complainant then has one month to act. I'm not entirely sure what this last bit means, but generally the complainant could act to challenge the decision.
I have only had a very brief time to skim through 256 pages of legalese, so this may not be definitive, but it supports what tisza was saying.

I think the word preliminary is the real concern

SkyBlueCRJ · Feb 12, 2020

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
True - but it looks like if they don't act within a month, they are deemed not to have acted!

I'm sure we'll find out soon enough (hopefully). Surely there has to be a point where they have to take the L - regardless of whether they truly believe they have a case or not as they've literally exhausted more or less nearly every legal option to no avail.

Londonccfcfan · Feb 12, 2020

tisza said:
Just had a meeting with my lawyers this am about launching a complaint with Commission against a local authority here in Hungary. Have to bypass Hungarian courts as too many political appointees (same party as local authority) and they can tie us up for at 6 years.
Anyway they said that the Commission has to decide within 12 months of receiving the complaint whether it merits a formal investigation. I'm sure I saw reference in some of the press articles that "our" complaint was made in Feb 2019 (stand to be corrected).
So some sort of news could be due soon.

The commision may have decided months ago and for all we know may have been rejected (if so have Sisu appealed again) or it may have been upheld. Be good to ask the question to Boddy. As usual he will probably be the last one to know.

oldskyblue58 · Feb 12, 2020

I wouldnt hold on to the 12 mth deadline it is only indicative. This is what the EU's code of best practice says

Indicative time frame and outcome of the investigation of a formal complaint
71.
The Commission services endeavour to investigate a formal complaint within a non-binding time limit of 12 months from when they are registered. The investigation could be longer based on the circumstances of the case, for example if the Commission services need to ask the complainant, Member State or third parties for further information.
72.
If a complaint is unsubstantiated, the Commission services will try to inform the complainant within 2 months from its registration that there are insufficient grounds for taking a view on the case. They will invite the complainant to submit further substantive comments within 1 month. If the complainant does not provide further comments within the deadline, the complaint will be considered to have been withdrawn.
73.
With regard to complaints on approved aid and/or aid measures which do not need to be notified, the Commission services will also try to reply to the complainant within 2 months from receipt of the complaint.
74.
Depending on its workload and in applying its right to set the priorities for investigations (50), the Commission services will try to carry out one of the following within 12 months following the registration of the complaint:
—
adopt a decision (51), and send a copy to the complainant;
—
send a letter to the complainant setting out its preliminary views on the measure based on the available information (‘preliminary assessment letter’); this letter is not an official position of the Commission.
75.
If the preliminary assessment letter provisionally concludes that there is no incompatible aid, the complainant can comment on it within 1 month. If the complainant does not comment within the deadline, the complaint will be considered to have been withdrawn.
76.
If a complaint concerns unlawful aid, the Commission services will remind the complainant that it is possible to start proceedings before national courts which can order that such aid be suspended or recovered (52). The Commission services may treat formal complaints on aid measures which are being challenged before national courts as a low priority for the duration of those proceedings.
77.
The Commission services will usually, but not necessarily, forward the non-confidential version of the substantiated complaints to the Member State for comments. The Commission services will invite the Member State concerned to meet the deadlines for commenting and providing information on complaints. Complaints will normally be sent to the Member State in their original language. Nevertheless, the Commission services will provide a translation if the Member State asks for it. This may result in the procedure taking longer.
78.
The Commission services will systematically keep Member States and complainants informed of the processing or closure of complaints.

Also going to depend on how the EU prioritise workload, i would think that this case is not at the forefront of that list. Even after all that there is a right to appeal for all parties involved, so personally i dont see this settled any time soon

Grendel · Feb 12, 2020

oldskyblue58 said:
I wouldnt hold on to the 12 mth deadline it is only indicative. This is what the EU's code of best practice says

Indicative time frame and outcome of the investigation of a formal complaint
71.
The Commission services endeavour to investigate a formal complaint within a non-binding time limit of 12 months from when they are registered. The investigation could be longer based on the circumstances of the case, for example if the Commission services need to ask the complainant, Member State or third parties for further information.
72.
If a complaint is unsubstantiated, the Commission services will try to inform the complainant within 2 months from its registration that there are insufficient grounds for taking a view on the case. They will invite the complainant to submit further substantive comments within 1 month. If the complainant does not provide further comments within the deadline, the complaint will be considered to have been withdrawn.
73.
With regard to complaints on approved aid and/or aid measures which do not need to be notified, the Commission services will also try to reply to the complainant within 2 months from receipt of the complaint.
74.
Depending on its workload and in applying its right to set the priorities for investigations (50), the Commission services will try to carry out one of the following within 12 months following the registration of the complaint:
—
adopt a decision (51), and send a copy to the complainant;
—
send a letter to the complainant setting out its preliminary views on the measure based on the available information (‘preliminary assessment letter’); this letter is not an official position of the Commission.
75.
If the preliminary assessment letter provisionally concludes that there is no incompatible aid, the complainant can comment on it within 1 month. If the complainant does not comment within the deadline, the complaint will be considered to have been withdrawn.
76.
If a complaint concerns unlawful aid, the Commission services will remind the complainant that it is possible to start proceedings before national courts which can order that such aid be suspended or recovered (52). The Commission services may treat formal complaints on aid measures which are being challenged before national courts as a low priority for the duration of those proceedings.
77.
The Commission services will usually, but not necessarily, forward the non-confidential version of the substantiated complaints to the Member State for comments. The Commission services will invite the Member State concerned to meet the deadlines for commenting and providing information on complaints. Complaints will normally be sent to the Member State in their original language. Nevertheless, the Commission services will provide a translation if the Member State asks for it. This may result in the procedure taking longer.
78.
The Commission services will systematically keep Member States and complainants informed of the processing or closure of complaints.

Also going to depend on how they prioritise workload. Even after all that there is a right to appeal for all parties involved, so personally i dont see this settled any time soon

That’s encouraging could take years then and probably will (to clarify to Great Expectations this is an opinion)

wingy · Feb 12, 2020

oldskyblue58 said:
I wouldnt hold on to the 12 mth deadline it is only indicative. This is what the EU's code of best practice says

Indicative time frame and outcome of the investigation of a formal complaint
71.
The Commission services endeavour to investigate a formal complaint within a non-binding time limit of 12 months from when they are registered. The investigation could be longer based on the circumstances of the case, for example if the Commission services need to ask the complainant, Member State or third parties for further information.
72.
If a complaint is unsubstantiated, the Commission services will try to inform the complainant within 2 months from its registration that there are insufficient grounds for taking a view on the case. They will invite the complainant to submit further substantive comments within 1 month. If the complainant does not provide further comments within the deadline, the complaint will be considered to have been withdrawn.
73.
With regard to complaints on approved aid and/or aid measures which do not need to be notified, the Commission services will also try to reply to the complainant within 2 months from receipt of the complaint.
74.
Depending on its workload and in applying its right to set the priorities for investigations (50), the Commission services will try to carry out one of the following within 12 months following the registration of the complaint:
—
adopt a decision (51), and send a copy to the complainant;
—
send a letter to the complainant setting out its preliminary views on the measure based on the available information (‘preliminary assessment letter’); this letter is not an official position of the Commission.
75.
If the preliminary assessment letter provisionally concludes that there is no incompatible aid, the complainant can comment on it within 1 month. If the complainant does not comment within the deadline, the complaint will be considered to have been withdrawn.
76.
If a complaint concerns unlawful aid, the Commission services will remind the complainant that it is possible to start proceedings before national courts which can order that such aid be suspended or recovered (52). The Commission services may treat formal complaints on aid measures which are being challenged before national courts as a low priority for the duration of those proceedings.
77.
The Commission services will usually, but not necessarily, forward the non-confidential version of the substantiated complaints to the Member State for comments. The Commission services will invite the Member State concerned to meet the deadlines for commenting and providing information on complaints. Complaints will normally be sent to the Member State in their original language. Nevertheless, the Commission services will provide a translation if the Member State asks for it. This may result in the procedure taking longer.
78.
The Commission services will systematically keep Member States and complainants informed of the processing or closure of complaints.

Also going to depend on how the EU prioritise workload, i would think that this case is not at the forefront of that list. Even after all that there is a right to appeal for all parties involved, so personally i dont see this settled any time soon

Is that 2 monthh guide of any significance.
IE :- Feb to April?

oldskyblue58 · Feb 12, 2020

Not the way i read it. It is deadlines two months from registration of the complaint. - we are well past that and as far as we know the process continues.

Grendel · Feb 12, 2020

oldskyblue58 said:
Not the way i read it. It is deadlines two months from registration of the complaint. - we are well past that and as far as we know the process continues.

It would be interesting to know how long the Swansea case took and what happened

wingy · Feb 12, 2020

Would the relevant Gov't department be involved by now?

wingy · Feb 12, 2020

oldskyblue58 said:
Not the way i read it. It is deadlines two months from registration of the complaint. - we are well past that and as far as we know the process continues.

Yes but it was at that point where indemnity was raised .

tisza · Feb 12, 2020

Londonccfcfan said:
The commision may have decided months ago and for all we know may have been rejected (if so have Sisu appealed again) or it may have been upheld. Be good to ask the question to Boddy. As usual he will probably be the last one to know.

My understanding was if that happens we'd have to appeal to ECJ - another branch that would require fresh disclosure. In SISU's case would be problematic as it would probably count as a new action - then they're into the area of undertaking not to start new legal proceedings.

Grendel · Feb 12, 2020

tisza said:
My understanding was if that happens we'd have to appeal to ECJ - another branch that would require fresh disclosure. In SISU's case would be problematic as it would probably count as a new action - then they're into the area of undertaking not to start new legal proceedings.

I think the initial complaint can take a lot longer than 12 months before any actual decision and then there is a process of action beyond that

tisza · Feb 12, 2020

oldskyblue58 said:
I wouldnt hold on to the 12 mth deadline it is only indicative. This is what the EU's code of best practice says

Indicative time frame and outcome of the investigation of a formal complaint
71.
The Commission services endeavour to investigate a formal complaint within a non-binding time limit of 12 months from when they are registered. The investigation could be longer based on the circumstances of the case, for example if the Commission services need to ask the complainant, Member State or third parties for further information.
72.
If a complaint is unsubstantiated, the Commission services will try to inform the complainant within 2 months from its registration that there are insufficient grounds for taking a view on the case. They will invite the complainant to submit further substantive comments within 1 month. If the complainant does not provide further comments within the deadline, the complaint will be considered to have been withdrawn.
73.
With regard to complaints on approved aid and/or aid measures which do not need to be notified, the Commission services will also try to reply to the complainant within 2 months from receipt of the complaint.
74.
Depending on its workload and in applying its right to set the priorities for investigations (50), the Commission services will try to carry out one of the following within 12 months following the registration of the complaint:
—
adopt a decision (51), and send a copy to the complainant;
—
send a letter to the complainant setting out its preliminary views on the measure based on the available information (‘preliminary assessment letter’); this letter is not an official position of the Commission.
75.
If the preliminary assessment letter provisionally concludes that there is no incompatible aid, the complainant can comment on it within 1 month. If the complainant does not comment within the deadline, the complaint will be considered to have been withdrawn.
76.
If a complaint concerns unlawful aid, the Commission services will remind the complainant that it is possible to start proceedings before national courts which can order that such aid be suspended or recovered (52). The Commission services may treat formal complaints on aid measures which are being challenged before national courts as a low priority for the duration of those proceedings.
77.
The Commission services will usually, but not necessarily, forward the non-confidential version of the substantiated complaints to the Member State for comments. The Commission services will invite the Member State concerned to meet the deadlines for commenting and providing information on complaints. Complaints will normally be sent to the Member State in their original language. Nevertheless, the Commission services will provide a translation if the Member State asks for it. This may result in the procedure taking longer.
78.
The Commission services will systematically keep Member States and complainants informed of the processing or closure of complaints.

Also going to depend on how the EU prioritise workload, i would think that this case is not at the forefront of that list. Even after all that there is a right to appeal for all parties involved, so personally i dont see this settled any time soon

Our advice this morning was basically we would know within 3 months whether the Commission had decided our case merited investigation and if it was worth us proceeding as well. We were advised the average investigation would be 12-14 months. (could be the Brussels lawyers trying to milk us )

Ours is a state aid case but obviously we need to budget the case as generally we'd be using our own lawyers and we'd be paying their Brussels office as well for their expertise/familiarity with the EU system.

wince · Feb 12, 2020

Is also Wasps hotel application due in this month?

covcity4life · Feb 12, 2020

wince said:
Is also Wasps hotel application due in this month?

There will be no delays with that 1. Council will come lay down the bricks

skyblueinBaku · Feb 12, 2020

covcity4life said:
There will be no delays with that 1. Council will come lay down the bricks

The council will probably help with the cost of the bricks!

chiefdave · Feb 12, 2020

wince said:
Is also Wasps hotel application due in this month?

The council approved a long lease for car park C in July 2019 on the basis that Wasps aquired planning permission by November 2019. The council said at the time "An additional hotel at the Ricoh Arena has been long-awaited and is much needed".

A seperate hotel application was made near the Ricoh which the council rejected saying the applicant had not proved a similar development could not take place on land nearer the city centre, in line with planning policies and that a hotel by the Ricoh would draw trade away from the city centre.

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