Ex-councillor Brian Patton to stand v Ann Lucas on Get Cov Back to the Ricoh platform (28 Viewers)

limoncello · Apr 25, 2014

Does anyone remember when Rob and his acolytes (I think there were 3 of them, according to here) announced (via the highly impartial Les R) they were going to present their petition at the Council House? Haha, went the majority, lol, we had 15 outside Sisu HQ and threatened the receptionist, that's a proper protest. Well, we had several statements that day, Ann Lucas saying she was happy to meet Joy woman to woman blah blah. Meetings happened, and whilst they were (obviously) not successful, they actually happened. That was a result. It's almost as though the council had a plan how to respond if they were confronted about their intransigence.

The demand that the JR be dropped as a condition of accepting the CVA. Does that not ring alarm bells with anyone? Surely if you're whiter than white there is absolutely no need to make that sort of demand?

Before I get crucified (again), I know that Sisu are a bunch of scummers etc. But there is something about the council's actions that make me suspect they are not a completely innocent party.

martcov · Apr 25, 2014

limoncello said:
Does anyone remember when Rob and his acolytes (I think there were 3 of them, according to here) announced (via the highly impartial Les R) they were going to present their petition at the Council House? Haha, went the majority, lol, we had 15 outside Sisu HQ and threatened the receptionist, that's a proper protest. Well, we had several statements that day, Ann Lucas saying she was happy to meet Joy woman to woman blah blah. Meetings happened, and whilst they were (obviously) not successful, they actually happened. That was a result. It's almost as though the council had a plan how to respond if they were confronted about their intransigence.

The demand that the JR be dropped as a condition of accepting the CVA. Does that not ring alarm bells with anyone? Surely if you're whiter than white there is absolutely no need to make that sort of demand?

Before I get crucified (again), I know that Sisu are a bunch of scummers etc. But there is something about the council's actions that make me suspect they are not a completely innocent party.

Not really. The JR is costly and time-consuming when the council should be doing other things. I would ask someone suing me to drop it, at least whilst we are negotiating on something else. It would be strange trying to a deal with someone who is trying to get you squirming uneasily in a court room, even if you come out clean in court at the end of it. Even if CCC are not whiter than white, SISU could be concentrating on getting a "commercial advantage" instead of this personal rubbish. I think the JR will run out similar to the Higgs case. No smoking guns found so far. At the end of the day SISU is a business and the JR is a distraction, a bit of a crusade because Joy is pissed off. SISU should get back to making money and they can only do that by setting themselves a target here and going for it.

Ian Coventry · Apr 25, 2014

chiefdave said:
Agree with you there. As I've said before the solution is very easy. The club purchase Higgs share (and pay for it, not put it on the never never!), they then clear the loan and purchase CCC share. CCC then move the lease to say a 99 year lease with peppercorn rent. If the club (i.e. SISU) want to alter any of the deals in place with existing tenants they do so once they are running the whole complex. The solution is really not that difficult unless any party is determined not to agree a deal or has unrealistic demands. If SISU were to state they would be happy with this I think you would see a lot of pressure on the council to agree to it.

Sounds good but haven,t Sisu declared repeatedly that they will only return to the Ricoh as freehold owners. So talk of them coming back as leasee' s is just another waste of time.

chiefdave · Apr 25, 2014

Ian Coventry said:
Sounds good but haven,t Sisu declared repeatedly that they will only return to the Ricoh as freehold owners. So talk of them coming back as leasee' s is just another waste of time.

Indeed but if we're going to take them at their word on that then we may as well give up all hope of the club ever playing in Coventry again.

The unencumbered lease is essentially impossible to achieve, my feeling is SISU know this and that is the reason they have requested it, I don't think its by accident that SISUs requirements have got more and more outlandish until they're reached a point where they're asking for something that can't be offered. In that situation all that can be done is to propose solutions which should, if sense prevailed, be acceptable to all parties

Ian Coventry · Apr 25, 2014

chiefdave said:
Indeed but if we're going to take them at their word on that then we may as well give up all hope of the club ever playing in Coventry again.

The unencumbered lease is essentially impossible to achieve, my feeling is SISU know this and that is the reason they have requested it, I don't think its by accident that SISUs requirements have got more and more outlandish until they're reached a point where they're asking for something that can't be offered. In that situation all that can be done is to propose solutions which should, if sense prevailed, be acceptable to all parties[/QUOTE

They are not after an unencumbered lease but an unencumbered freehold which is vastly different and not at all impossible to achieve, but very unlikely to happen with this council maintaining that the £14 m bailout of ACL was a justifiable use of public money and further maintaining that the Ricoh Arena is a profitable enterprise without CCFC.

Personally I gave up hope of CCFC ever returning to the Ricoh a long time ago, as i see it they will either build a new stadium or maybe go the wimbledon route.

Astute · Apr 26, 2014

Ian Coventry said:
They are not after an unencumbered lease but an unencumbered freehold which is vastly different and not at all impossible to achieve, but very unlikely to happen with this council maintaining that the £14 m bailout of ACL was a justifiable use of public money and further maintaining that the Ricoh Arena is a profitable enterprise without CCFC.

Personally I gave up hope of CCFC ever returning to the Ricoh a long time ago, as i see it they will either build a new stadium or maybe go the wimbledon route.

Unencumbered freehold not impossible?

SISU try to make out that the arena is almost worthless as it was built for a football club and no football club plays there. This is the only reason we are playing in Northampton. So they wouldn't be prepared to pay much. So how about the cost of selling unencumbered?

Loan to be paid off 14.4m

Higgs prepared to lose 1m and sell for 5.5m

How much for all other contracts in place to be paid off? Quite a lot more millions.

They would need state aid to pay it all off. And we all know what SISU think of this :thinking about:

So CCC have the choice of keeping the arena that seems to be doing well, or spending many millions which they don't have to sell it to a hedge fund. And they couldn't even do this as they would have to put it on the open market and sell to the highest bidder. This is the law. And we all know that SISU believe in keeping to the law, although they like to stretch it as far as they can.

Otis · Apr 26, 2014

SkyBlueSid said:
I knew Brian Patton years ago and he was a very sound bloke. He played for the football team I used to manage and I made him captain because, although he wasn't the best player in the team, he was the best for the job, reliable and straight up. Not seen him for years but good luck to him.

He is a sound bloke. He is my neice's best friend's dad. My mum knows him very well. Very decent bloke indeed. Good luck to him.

chiefdave · Apr 26, 2014

Ian Coventry said:
They are not after an unencumbered lease but an unencumbered freehold which is vastly different and not at all impossible to achieve

Sorry, typo, I meant unencumbered freehold. If you think this is achievable can you explain how?

As I see it ACL has contracts with various other companies, all those contracts would have to be cancelled and compensation paid for the cancellation. ACL would then have to be wound up, as this is a private company the council may well have to pay compensation for terminating the lease and of course the outstanding loan needs to be paid off.

Only then can CCC offer the unencumbered freehold. By this stage a huge amount of money will have been spent and the sale cost of the unencumbered freehold will need to reflect that, are SISU going to pay that? What happens if they back out at the last minute?

The easier route is for SISU to purchase all of ACL and then renegotiate / cancel contracts as they see fit. This is far more achievable. In my opinion talk of the unencumbered freehold has come about as every other time SISU have asked for something it appears ACL / CCC / Higgs have moved towards giving them what they have asked for. They have then changed their demands until they're reached the point of asking for the ridiculous.

Ian Coventry · Apr 26, 2014

Astute said:
Unencumbered freehold not impossible?

SISU try to make out that the arena is almost worthless as it was built for a football club and no football club plays there. This is the only reason we are playing in Northampton. So they wouldn't be prepared to pay much. So how about the cost of selling unencumbered?

Loan to be paid off 14.4m

Higgs prepared to lose 1m and sell for 5.5m

How much for all other contracts in place to be paid off? Quite a lot more millions.

They would need state aid to pay it all off. And we all know what SISU think of this :thinking about:

So CCC have the choice of keeping the arena that seems to be doing well, or spending many millions which they don't have to sell it to a hedge fund. And they couldn't even do this as they would have to put it on the open market and sell to the highest bidder. This is the law. And we all know that SISU believe in keeping to the law, although they like to stretch it as far as they can.

Firstly Sisu have never ever tried to make out that the arena is worthless, show me one statement where they have stated this. This is something that is your own mind based only on your own prejudices.

For the unencumbered freehold they would need to cover the £14.4 million and an amount between £2.5 and £7.5 million to The Higgs trust , there are no other contracts to be paid off for it to be an unencumbered Freehold sale.

Bearing all costs the Ricoh arena Freehold could be bought for around £25 million pound which I believe Sisu would be interested in purchasing , but with the CCC adamant that it is not for sale, this going to Drag on for many years yet.

chiefdave · Apr 26, 2014

Ian Coventry said:
For the unencumbered freehold they would need to cover the £14.4 million and an amount between £2.5 and £7.5 million to The Higgs trust , there are no other contracts to be paid off for it to be an unencumbered Freehold sale.

Bearing all costs the Ricoh arena Freehold could be bought for around £25 million pound which I believe Sisu would be interested in purchasing , but with the CCC adamant that it is not for sale, this going to Drag on for many years yet.

So what happens to the contracts in place with the casino, hotel, compass etc. Its not unencumbered if those contracts haven't been terminated and thats not going to happen without a financial outlay.

In your calculation you also don't make any payment to CCC for their 50% share in ACL yet state it's not the case that the arena is worthless.

Astute · Apr 26, 2014

Ian Coventry said:
Firstly Sisu have never ever tried to make out that the arena is worthless, show me one statement where they have stated this. This is something that is your own mind based only on your own prejudices.

For the unencumbered freehold they would need to cover the £14.4 million and an amount between £2.5 and £7.5 million to The Higgs trust , there are no other contracts to be paid off for it to be an unencumbered Freehold sale.

Bearing all costs the Ricoh arena Freehold could be bought for around £25 million pound which I believe Sisu would be interested in purchasing , but with the CCC adamant that it is not for sale, this going to Drag on for many years yet.

My own prejudices?

I look at all the information. Then I come to a conclusion. Remember in court. Higgs have a half share in ACL. This is for a long lease. SISU tried to make out that it is worthless, but would donate 2m as Higgs are a charity. The judge pulled Deering up on it.

If you are going to stick up for SISU it would be better if you got your facts right.

simple_simon · Apr 26, 2014

I know who I will be voting for.

TurkeyTrot · Apr 26, 2014

simple_simon said:
I know who I will be voting for.

I live in Holbrooks, it'll be the first time I've voted in 25 years. Need to check if the socialists have put someone forward.

spider_ricoh · Apr 26, 2014

Wasn't Brian Patton that bloke who used to shout "no slacking!!" at the Chuckle Brothers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patton_Brothers

Grendel · Apr 26, 2014

Frankly people should vote for this guy just to get a new leader. Lucas even makes mutton look competent. She lacks any coherence or elequence and just sounds embarrasing.

She gives a dreadful impression as council leader. Who would take her seriously.

spider_ricoh · Apr 26, 2014

Grendel said:
Frankly people should vote for this guy just to get a new leader. Lucas even makes mutton look competent. She lacks any coherence or elequence and just sounds embarrasing.

She gives a dreadful impression as council leader. Who would take her seriously.

Disagree. And anyway, at least she does speak in public, unlike our glorious leader, the hilariously ironically-named Joy

martcov · Apr 26, 2014

Grendel said:
Frankly people should vote for this guy just to get a new leader. Lucas even makes mutton look competent. She lacks any coherence or elequence and just sounds embarrasing.

She gives a dreadful impression as council leader. Who would take her seriously.

Have you seen his "I am a Tottenham fan" video on YouTube? I would say after watching that and knowing his past changes of party, he lacks coherence, eloquence and just sounds embarrassing.

chiefdave · Apr 26, 2014

Grendel said:
Frankly people should vote for this guy just to get a new leader.

Who would be your choice for leader of the council?

Rusty Trombone · Apr 26, 2014

Shouldn't need much of a campaign then if this is what he's up against. Surely it'll be embarrassing if he loses to such an awful woman. How many votes do you think he will win by?

Grendel · Apr 26, 2014

martcov said:
Have you seen his "I am a Tottenham fan" video on YouTube? I would say after watching that and knowing his past changes of party, he lacks coherence, eloquence and just sounds embarrassing.

I don't see what changes of party have to do with anything. As I said previously there are many examples of this with highly regarded individuals.

He won't be council leader anyway.

Grendel · Apr 26, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
Shouldn't need much of a campaign then if this is what he's up against. Surely it'll be embarrassing if he loses to such an awful woman. How many votes do you think he will win by?

He will not win. She will though 70% of the electorate will not vote for her.

Remember this city elected the pre- historic Dave Nellist. Ultimately it deserves all it gets.

skybluetony176 · Apr 26, 2014

Grendel said:
I don't see what changes of party have to do with anything. As I said previously there are many examples of this with highly regarded individuals.

He won't be council leader anyway.

Like Nikki Sinclair you mean.

spider_ricoh · Apr 26, 2014

Grendel said:
He will not win. She will though 70% of the electorate will not vote for her.

Remember this city elected the pre- historic Dave Nellist. Ultimately it deserves all it gets.

So it's the fault of the voting public, as well as CCC, Higgs, ACL, Andy Thorn's daughter's childminder's brother's postman's friend? Anyone but SISU to blame for everything!

Rusty Trombone · Apr 26, 2014

Grendel said:
He will not win. She will though 70% of the electorate will not vote for her.

Remember this city elected the pre- historic Dave Nellist. Ultimately it deserves all it gets.

Do you see him as a bit of a distraction then? Do you think Rob would be better spending his time on a different idea, or maybe thinking through this idea a bit more?

Grendel · Apr 26, 2014

chiefdave said:
Who would be your choice for leader of the council?

Someone conservative. Ken Taylor was a far better leader than fletcher, mutton, Lucas etc. at least he and the other Tory leader Kevin someone can at least construct a sentence.

Grendel · Apr 26, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
Do you see him as a bit of a distraction then? Do you think Rob would be better spending his time on a different idea, or maybe thinking through this idea a bit more?

No its an excellent idea - I suggested it months ago. There is insufficient will or understanding from the gullible public. That's not the problem of the strategy - it is the simple and apathetic nature of the Coventry public.

Rusty Trombone · Apr 26, 2014

Grendel said:
No its an excellent idea - I suggested it months ago. There is insufficient will or understanding from the gullible public. That's not the problem of the strategy - it is the simple and apathetic nature of the Coventry public.

Surely a good strategy would take these things into account. Maybe if the simple Cov public could have the reasons to vote for him explained that might help.

martcov · Apr 26, 2014

Grendel said:
No its an excellent idea - I suggested it months ago. There is insufficient will or understanding from the gullible public. That's not the problem of the strategy - it is the simple and apathetic nature of the Coventry public.

Whether or not it is a good idea, I think it is just cobbled together. They asked a guy if he would do it and he said yes. He is campaigning on a CCFC platform and is a Tottenham fan, has been in two other parties and has not yet put across any clear strategy ( it's no good saying CCC must negotiate without first having an ok from SISU and an idea of what they are supposed to be negotiating ). I think it will end in a disaster for Rob and his fans and do more damage to the Grendel standpoint than good. If I were you Grendel I would start distancing myself now.

chiefdave · Apr 26, 2014

That's the danger isn't it, if this guy doesn't get elected it can be argued that the voting public have agreed with the stance CCC have taken and you actually end up doing more harm than good.

Hopefully before long we will see a clear strategy as to how the groups aims can be achieved, do that and I think they will get a lot more support.

Houdi · Apr 26, 2014

Rob S said:
WRT Ann Lucas it is because she is leader so represents the Council as a whole. In an ideal world our slate would have been against Ann Lucas (Lab, Holbrook), Michael Gammon (Con, Earlsdon) Phil Townsend (Lab, Lower Stoke) & Julia Lepoidevin (Con, Woodlands) based on leadership (AL & PT) and marginality (MG & JL) and to cover both political parties.

If we were solely bothered about votes Brian Patton would run in Henley as that is where he has the best name recognition & polling record but that doesn't really make the point of calling the Council to account.

One thing I will say is that I like Ann Lucas a lot and there's nothing personal about this as far as I'm concerned, but she is the leader at the moment and has presided over the past 12 months of this saga (on the CCC side) so it's her that gets the fun of an extra opponent in her ward.

Well look on the bright side,at least this way you will have to suffer only 1 probable humiliation,as opposed to 4 or 5.

Gary.j · Apr 26, 2014

Grendel said:
No its an excellent idea - I suggested it months ago.

Perhaps then, you can explain why sisu should be entrusted with the stadium?

Astute · Apr 26, 2014

Gary.j said:
Perhaps then, you can explain why sisu should be entrusted with the stadium?

Because the Ricoh would go to CCFC and not SISU

Grendel · Apr 26, 2014

Gary.j said:
Perhaps then, you can explain why sisu should be entrusted with the stadium?

What do you mean "entrusted" - it isn't the hanging gardens of Babylon - its a football ground which is now never used. What do you think they will do - knock it down and rebuild in the Cayman Islands?

Grendel · Apr 26, 2014

Astute said:
Because the Ricoh would go to CCFC and not SISU

Any owner that put the club and the stadium under the same company would be wholly unfit for purpose. This seems a common theme from you and Tony and highlights an incredible lack of business understanding.

skybluetony176 · Apr 26, 2014

Grendel said:
What do you mean "entrusted" - it isn't the hanging gardens of Babylon - its a football ground which is now never used. What do you think they will do - knock it down and rebuild in the Cayman Islands?

In other words you have no argument for trusting them with the Ricoh.

Ex-councillor Brian Patton to stand v Ann Lucas on Get Cov Back to the Ricoh platform (28 Viewers)

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