FA allows sex discrimination (27 Viewers)

SBT · May 22, 2024

oakey said:
Why must I have sympathy for anyone who wishes to force their way into a category they are not entitled to?
I am 5ft 1in and feel young. How would you feel if I identify as a 10 year old and insist on playing Under 10s girls football?
Should a heavyweight boxer be allowed to fight a flyweight if he feels lighter than the scales say?
People must play in their sex category or create their own category like Paralympians did.
No there is no compromise. Categories matter.

Well clearly other people feel differently about how strictly the category definitions are applied when it comes to gender specifically. And I don’t know if I agree that every trans person looking to play sport at a grassroots level is looking to “force their way” in, or doing so to displace someone else who would otherwise be taking part. Obviously you disagree, a lot of people do.

I don’t have a compelling answer to the problem, but I would like to imagine there’s a way that these 70 or so people out of several million could find a way to play the game they want to play without it compromising anyone’s safety or enjoyment. Maybe it’s zero-sum like you say it is.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 22, 2024

SBT said:
Right, but what has that got to do with the biological physical advantage stuff you were mentioning?

With the ‘fitting into the changing room’ in your original post.

oakey · May 22, 2024

A man says he's a woman.
A woman says he's not.

Pick a side.
There is no compromise.

If you feel sympathy for these 74 individuals make them welcome in men's teams. Start a campaign for their acceptance.

Any women who are trans, however they present, dress or have grown beards are welcome in the women's game. But, there's a snag. Many have taken testosterone so a banned substance (probably) so would be excluded.
So, in practice, this really is a men's rights movement.

rob9872 · May 22, 2024

A boys youth side beat a professional women's side not that long ago. It's not because the women weren't technically good enough but because men are naturally stronger athletes.

If the pay gets better as it should in women's football, you could feasibly end up with a whole bunch of amateur players not quite good enough to make it, sticking a frock on to play elite level sport at the expense of someone elses opportunity. It's not fair, and it's wrong. If you want to be a woman, crack on, but leave women's sport alone.

OffenhamSkyBlue · May 22, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Into the men’s leagues as according to the gender they were assigned at birth.

*biological sex at birth NOT gender

OffenhamSkyBlue · May 22, 2024

rob9872 said:
A boys youth side beat a professional women's side not that long ago. It's not because the women weren't technically good enough but because men are naturally stronger athletes.

If the pay gets better as it should in women's football, you could feasibly end up with a whole bunch of amateur players not quite good enough to make it, sticking a frock on to play elite level sport at the expense of someone elses opportunity. It's not fair, and it's wrong. If you want to be a woman, crack on, but leave women's sport alone.

It could be argued that there are a number of trans women who have chosen to change sex for cynical reasons to enable themselves to succeed in women's sport where they were also-rans in men's.
I forget the names now, but there are several across a number of sports.
I stand with @oakey

OffenhamSkyBlue · May 22, 2024

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
*biological sex at birth NOT gender

It's an easy mistake to make in this day and age when the terms are so often used interchangeably.
I sit on a research ethics committee at my place of work, and authors of applications frequently tie themselves in knots with the terminology.
It is one thing to say you are going to collect data from participants relating to how they identify in terms of gender, but there are frequently studies which are looking at biological readouts (which will have a lifelong difference between male and female) when they are asking participants about their gender when they mean sex at birth.

The problem we are then faced with is the ethical dilemma of the investigator asking a trans person to discuss their life history, which can be very insulting and offensive, apparently. It's known as "deadnaming".

duffer · May 22, 2024

SBT said:
I can see the merits in excluding those with a biological advantage from the highest competitive levels of a sport - even if I think the cases are going to be extremely rare, it makes sense to preserve competitive integrity. But at the grassroots level?

Yes, that was my thought too. I'm not claiming I've got the answers here either btw...

duffer · May 22, 2024

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
It could be argued that there are a number of trans women who have chosen to change sex for cynical reasons to enable themselves to succeed in women's sport where they were also-rans in men's.
I forget the names now, but there are several across a number of sports.
I stand with @oakey

Is that really true though?

I don't know about you but it's going to take a lot more than the chance of a few medals to get me to part with my impressive three-and-a-half inches of blue steel.

skybluecam · May 22, 2024

Grendel said:
They are men - so in the mens teams - its not difficult

I thought you were progressive?

rob9872 · May 22, 2024

Could be a problem if this kind of thing happens:

SBT · May 22, 2024

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
It could be argued that there are a number of trans women who have chosen to change sex for cynical reasons to enable themselves to succeed in women's sport where they were also-rans in men's.
I forget the names now, but there are several across a number of sports.
I stand with @oakey

I find this pretty hard to believe

oakey · May 22, 2024

skybluecam said:
I thought you were progressive?

What is progressive about denying women and girls fair competition in sport?

oakey · May 22, 2024

HeCheated.org

A Record of Male Athletes in Female Sport

www.hecheated.org

If anyone is in any doubt. Most examples are USA and Canada.
Of course, these are unverified but choose a name and find out more.
Lia Thomas - swimming - USA
Flying Bats - football - Australia

Good place to start.

rob9872 · May 22, 2024

oakey said:
HeCheated.org

A Record of Male Athletes in Female Sport

www.hecheated.org

If anyone is in any doubt. Most examples are USA and Canada.
Of course, these are unverified but choose a name and find out more.
Lia Thomas - USA
Flying Bats - Australia

Good place to start.

If you think that's bad, look up Kris Jenner

covcity4life · May 22, 2024

skybluecam said:
I thought you were progressive?

I coulda sworn Grendel said he had a trans ex boyfriend?

Maybe his bf had same views tho regarding playing sports

Brighton Sky Blue · May 22, 2024

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
*biological sex at birth NOT gender

You know what I meant

napolimp · May 22, 2024

This thread is disgusting.

As usual a minority, who has been on the receiving end of a horrific bullying campaign by the government and certain sections of our media, is vilified for a single theoretical action which a very small percentage of said group "might" be doing (with no actual evidence whatsoever).

The most vocal have very likely never even spoken to a trans woman, but don't let that stop you from jumping on the outrage bandwagon.

oakey · May 22, 2024

napolimp said:
This thread is disgusting.

As usual a minority, who has been on the receiving end of a horrific bullying campaign by the government and certain sections of our media, is vilified for a single theoretical action which a very small percentage of said group "might" be doing (with no actual evidence whatsoever).

The most vocal have very likely never even spoken to a trans woman, but don't let that stop you from jumping on the outrage bandwagon.

All ignorant conjecture.
Try again using evidence and argument.

rob9872 · May 22, 2024

napolimp said:
The most vocal have very likely never even spoken to a trans woman

Maybe not Trans but spoken to some rough fugly sorts who I wouldn't bet my last pound that they didn't have a cock

napolimp · May 22, 2024

oakey said:
All ignorant conjecture.
Try again using evidence and argument.

All conjecture is ignorant by design, you don't have to add the word "ignorant" to it.

That aside, there is no conjecture in my statement. There has been an anti-trans campaign from the current government and certain sections of the media (and yes it is horrific) - not conjecture.

My second statement is also not conjecture. Let's take America as an example, as you brought it up above (and let's ignore the fact that you probably don't even know who runs hecheated.org). Trans women in America make up 0.5-1% of the population. There are approximately 220,000 women competing in the NCAA every year, which means between 1100-2200 should be trans women. Yet at the moment it's less than 100.

If you're going to try using the "I'm rational" argument, it helps if you remove your own beliefs and emotions from it.

oakey · May 22, 2024

Well, let's see.
The conjecture that I have never even spoken a transwoman is wrong.
There are several unsubstantiated digs in your answer.
Nobody is being vilified if they are required to respect the category that allows women and girls their own space. They are free to compete in their own category or create their own, like disabled athletes did.

What you call "anti-trans" I see as protecting the rights of women and girls.

I also indicated that the 'hecheated' website was unverified and that people should do some checking. This is true of all political and activist websites on any issue. Nothing can be taken at face value.

oakey · May 22, 2024

"If you're going to try using the "I'm rational" argument, it helps if you remove your own beliefs and emotions from it."

This is a cheap shot and a classic misogynist tactic. I never claimed "I'm rational" so you're putting words in my mouth.
Telling a woman to "remove your own beliefs and emotions," is textbook misogyny.
It neatly follows my being asked if I have "sympathy".

napolimp · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
Well, let's see.
The conjecture that I have never even spoken a transwoman is wrong.
There are several unsubstantiated digs in your answer.
Nobody is being vilified if they are required to respect the category that allows women and girls their own space. They are free to compete in their own category or create their own, like disabled athletes did.

What you call "anti-trans" I see as protecting the rights of women and girls.

I also indicated that the 'hecheated' website was unverified and that people should do some checking. This is true of all political and activist websites on any issue. Nothing can be taken at face value.

Wow, that's incredible. You've managed to take a post that wasn't directed at you, not quoting you, and make it completely about yourself.

I wrote "the most vocal have likely never spoken to a trans woman". The comment wasn't in direct reply to you, and yet you've made it entirely about yourself.

Again, I said there has been an anti-trans campaign by the current government and section of the media, and what, you've managed to make that entirely about yourself again? You might well see yourself as protecting the rights of women and girls, but my comment wasn't aimed at you as I specifically said government and media, so why kick off about it? Again, making it about yourself.

I actually have no opinions on trans women in sports, as I don't believe it's for me to say. But whilst you just said nobody is being vilified for being asked to respect the category, etc, your previous comments in this thread present a much darker attitude.

Going back around full circle, you accused me of conjecture which was completely, and utterly, wrong.

duffer · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
HeCheated.org

A Record of Male Athletes in Female Sport

www.hecheated.org

If anyone is in any doubt. Most examples are USA and Canada.
Of course, these are unverified but choose a name and find out more.
Lia Thomas - swimming - USA
Flying Bats - football - Australia

Good place to start.

I've had a browse, the numbers, compared to the number of participants in the sports I looked at, are miniscule.

10 footballers they mention, for example. That's out of 29 million female players, according to FIFA.

Personally speaking, this feels a bit like a culture war thing than a huge cause for concern. I can't see that any girls are being denied either success or participation in football at least.

Top level Athletics, I believe, already has rules about testosterone etc., though I'm too knackered to do the research right now, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The idea that someone would undergo the massive life change involved in transitioning just to win stuff in women's sport, just does not ring true to me.

It's not like there's big money in most women's sport, unless you're at the elite level in a handful of sports. I've got serious doubts that this is really a huge issue.

napolimp · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
"If you're going to try using the "I'm rational" argument, it helps if you remove your own beliefs and emotions from it."

This is a cheap shot and a classic misogynist tactic. I never claimed "I'm rational" so you're putting words in my mouth.
Telling a woman to "remove your own beliefs and emotions," is textbook misogyny.
It neatly follows my being asked if I have "sympathy".

I couldn't give two tiny shits if you're a woman, so don't even go there. To me, everyone on here is a plank.

oakey · May 23, 2024

Some people don't think it's a big deal.
You're entitled to your opinion.
Mine is based on my life experience of women's access to sport being restricted and marginalised.
I was never allowed to play as a youngster. PE teachers at Tile Hill Wood shooed us off the field when we brought our own ball and told us we weren't insured for that.
My dad told me he wouldn't take me to Kirby Corner rd for a trial with the women's team there as it was too much bother.
At university I don't think football for women existed in the 1980s.
Finally aged 61 I took up walking football. I play with women. I used to play mixed but have had 3 fractures, 2 whilst playing with men. One man hit a ball so hard it broke my wrist. So excuse me if I would like my declining years when I finally get to play a slow version of the game I love to be as safe as possible. Or perhaps I should just sit at home if a man wants to play walking football against old women.
At last things seemed to be improving.
If even one woman or girl is displaced, discouraged or asked to be kind or have sympathy and to let the boys/men into their competitions that is one too many.
The oppressed minority in sport are women, in case you hadn't noticed.

rob9872 · May 23, 2024

I agree with what you say, but jeez you don't half go on a bit.

napolimp · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
Some people don't think it's a big deal.
You're entitled to your opinion.
Mine is based on my life experience of women's access to sport being restricted and marginalised.
I was never allowed to play as a youngster. PE teachers at Tile Hill Wood shooed us off the field when we brought our own ball and told us we weren't insured for that.
My dad told me he wouldn't take me to Kirby Corner rd for a trial with the women's team there as it was too much bother.
At university I don't think football for women existed in the 1980s.
Finally aged 61 I took up walking football. I play with women. I used to play mixed but have had 3 fractures, 2 whilst playing with men. One man hit a ball so hard it broke my wrist. So excuse me if I would like my declining years when I finally get to play a slow version of the game I love to be as safe as possible. Or perhaps I should just sit at home if a man wants to play walking football against old women.
At last things seemed to be improving.
If even one woman or girl is displaced, discouraged or asked to be kind or have sympathy and to let the boys/men into their competitions that is one too many.
The oppressed minority in sport are women, in case you hadn't noticed.
Sorry, not sorry.

Again, I do not believe my opinion has a place in the actual discussion at hand - trans women in Sports - that's for those affected to speak out about. Unlike many men who have suddenly decided to become advocates for women's rights, when the subject happens to be trans women - are the intentions pure? I'm not convinced. Your story is full of shit experiences, I'm only interested in the discussion of trans people in sport not becoming a vehicle for transphobia.

SkyBlueCharlie9 · May 23, 2024

Grendel said:
There is an easy solution as other sports have adopted

Grendel championing women's rights?

oakey · May 23, 2024

napolimp said:
Again, I do not believe my opinion has a place in the actual discussion at hand - trans women in Sports - that's for those affected to speak out about. Unlike many men who have suddenly decided to become advocates for women's rights, when the subject happens to be trans women - are the intentions pure? I'm not convinced. Your story is full of shit experiences, I'm only interested in the discussion of trans people in sport not becoming a vehicle for transphobia.

Do you have any ideas how we can proceed - respecting women's sports whilst avoiding vilification of trans people? Genuine question.

napolimp · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
Do you have any ideas how we can proceed - respecting women's sports whilst avoiding vilification of trans people? Genuine question.

I would like the discussion to be left to women, and trans people, in sports - at all levels of course. That may seem like a cop out, but you have two groups who have a history of discrimination. I hope misinformation can be left out of it, suggestions that people are transitioning solely to compete in women's sport, or other parroted vitriol such as people transitioning to attack women in shared spaces, are just dangerous.

What are your opinions on potential solutions?

oakey · May 23, 2024

I agree that it is a weak argument to pretend men transition deliberately to gain advantages and that men doing so is so they can attack women. These are nasty and unhelpful slurs.
It is harmful and wrong to suggest all men are predators and that transgender individuals are a particular threat.
You must acknowledge, though, that if evidence emerges that some of these individuals are predatory then this must not be dismissed or minimised. Neither must it be weaponised against the majority of transgender people to tarnish them all.
It is naive to think that predatory women and men don't seek to take advantage of loopholes and administrative negligence.

My solution is that sex matters. We are born male or female. It's on our birth certificate. If you think yours is wrong see a doctor and get some tests.
Humans cannot change sex.
The tiny minority that are "intersex" we can leave to the doctors and administrators to categorise.

Sport has sex categories. You compete in the one that matches your biological sex.

If transgender people are unhappy with this then they lobby to create their own competitions. There are many supportive billionaires who could fund this.

SBT · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
Telling a woman to "remove your own beliefs and emotions," is textbook misogyny.
It neatly follows my being asked if I have "sympathy".

I’m sorry - did you consider my question about whether you had any sympathy with trans people who wanted to take part in women’s sport to be misogynistic?

TomRad85 · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
HeCheated.org

A Record of Male Athletes in Female Sport

www.hecheated.org

If anyone is in any doubt. Most examples are USA and Canada.
Of course, these are unverified but choose a name and find out more.
Lia Thomas - swimming - USA
Flying Bats - football - Australia

Good place to start.

Everything shit seeps over from the States, from all sides of the political spectrum. Its almost as if they are a bunch batshit weirdos or something...

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FA allows sex discrimination (27 Viewers)

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