FA allows sex discrimination (4 Viewers)

Grendel · May 23, 2024

covcity4life said:
I coulda sworn Grendel said he had a trans ex boyfriend?

Maybe his bf had same views tho regarding playing sports

The same views in general actually including not invading a females space. I don’t suppose it was discussed but it’s just a case of respecting females and not making them have to accept something they don’t want.

Regarding sport the interesting thing that’s not discussed is when it’s the other way round. Theres no clamour whatsoever for women identifying as men to play men’s sport.

The best example of advantages occurred in the 70s when Renee Richard’s had a full transformation. Richard’s when make was a washed up tennis player around 300th in the world was his best achievement.

He changed gender and entered the women’s game. At 47 Richard’s was in the top 20 and said if the transition happened when he was in his 20’s he’d have dominated the women’s game as the power and height gave huge advantages

Travs · May 23, 2024

One of the great features of football (or it should be, if you discount VAR etc), is that the rules applied are the same from "grass roots" to "elite".

Unfortunately you can't just apply a different rule on this at low level just because it "doesn't really matter", as it sets a precedent for if/when similar occurs at the top level.

I'm heavily involved in mountain running.... there's an issue going on at the moment with a trans lady who was "grassed up" for running in the women's category....

Given that they regularly come stone dead last in races, it was certainly very petty for someone to report them..... and most race organisers are aware but let it go.... but at the other end of the scale there was a multi-year UK champion who was competing at the highest level and taking honours and international representation off deserving women (unfortunately this case ended in tragedy as it was all going to go into the mainstream public and things escalated.... i'll say no more)

Point is that when there is an issue, the rules set down by the governing bodies have to be followed, whatever the level.

My personal view (for what little its worth) is that the women's category should be protected.... in running's case, change the name of the men's category to "open" if they really wish, not that it makes a difference, but they should run as men (and similarly play football as men)

duffer · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
Some people don't think it's a big deal.
You're entitled to your opinion.
Mine is based on my life experience of women's access to sport being restricted and marginalised.
I was never allowed to play as a youngster. PE teachers at Tile Hill Wood shooed us off the field when we brought our own ball and told us we weren't insured for that.
My dad told me he wouldn't take me to Kirby Corner rd for a trial with the women's team there as it was too much bother.
At university I don't think football for women existed in the 1980s.
Finally aged 61 I took up walking football. I play with women. I used to play mixed but have had 3 fractures, 2 whilst playing with men. One man hit a ball so hard it broke my wrist. So excuse me if I would like my declining years when I finally get to play a slow version of the game I love to be as safe as possible. Or perhaps I should just sit at home if a man wants to play walking football against old women.
At last things seemed to be improving.
If even one woman or girl is displaced, discouraged or asked to be kind or have sympathy and to let the boys/men into their competitions that is one too many.
The oppressed minority in sport are women, in case you hadn't noticed.

I hear where you're coming from on this, and I'm genuinely sorry that in our generation (you and I are broadly contemporaries), women's and girls football wasn't taken seriously or even was actively discouraged. That was rubbish.

Can I just make the polite observation though, that none of the problems that you've faced are because of the trans issue.

And, as above, with 29 million players, and literally a handful of trans women that you've identified, is there any real evidence that women or girls are being prevented from playing football because of this issue?

I love playing football, and useless as I've always been, I never want to quit playing or to see anyone else denied the opportunity to play.

I've got two daughters who both played and I think there are far bigger obstacles to encouraging girls to take up the sport (and continue playing it) than the trans issue, imho.

As a slight aside, it's entirely possible for there to be more than one oppressed minority here, isn't there?

Nick · May 23, 2024

napolimp said:
This thread is disgusting.

As usual a minority, who has been on the receiving end of a horrific bullying campaign by the government and certain sections of our media, is vilified for a single theoretical action which a very small percentage of said group "might" be doing (with no actual evidence whatsoever).

The most vocal have very likely never even spoken to a trans woman, but don't let that stop you from jumping on the outrage bandwagon.

I'm not sure it's disgusting in the context of the thread?

It's about competitive sport and the mixture of trans women v women. I'm really not sure why it's an issue if they said "Actually, you were a male up until a couple of years ago. Testosterone, 6 foot, athletic etc so you aren't going to play football against women.

Nick · May 23, 2024

SBT said:
I’m sorry - did you consider my question about whether you had any sympathy with trans people who wanted to take part in women’s sport to be misogynistic?

Why sympathy? The clue is in the name, "women's sport".

I'm pretty sure if I was drafted in for an under 10's team I'd be amazing, any sympathy for me that I can't?

Grendel · May 23, 2024

napolimp said:
This thread is disgusting.

As usual a minority, who has been on the receiving end of a horrific bullying campaign by the government and certain sections of our media, is vilified for a single theoretical action which a very small percentage of said group "might" be doing (with no actual evidence whatsoever).

The most vocal have very likely never even spoken to a trans woman, but don't let that stop you from jumping on the outrage bandwagon.

I have spoken to this particular trans person - I guess you might struggle here

Sport – Debbie Hayton

Posts about Sport written by Debbie Hayton

debbiehayton.com

oakey · May 23, 2024

Duffer
I fully accept that there are a small number of transgender people (male) who may wish to play in the women's game. This matters not. Even one is a category breach. Women have long campaigned for their own stuff and it must be protected. Would you have allowed Pistorius to run with his blades? Only one guy who had suffered horrendous misfortune. I think not.
In future there may well be hybrid/trans humans who have enhanced body parts. That will provoke a similar debate.
There are plenty of women who don't mind allowing transgender people (male) to play for various reasons. Some don't think it matters, some are just grateful to play, others are scared of being called transphobic, others are used to being "kind" and standing aside for others.
They are naive in my view and haven't seen that this is sloppy seconds.
If you're looking for evidence that women and girls are being put off, it's there anecdotally. Evidence of this kind is hard to collate. Few organisations record reasons why people drop out.
You have recognised that your daughters faced obstacles in playing sport. Why would you want to add more? What would your daughters gain from playing against males who are 10 per cent bigger, stronger, taller, faster on average? In mixed teams there is a degree of fairness but there is greater risk of injury to the females. That is one reason why mixed sex sports are almost all outlawed by governing bodies.

napolimp · May 23, 2024

Nick said:
I'm not sure it's disgusting in the context of the thread?

It's about competitive sport and the mixture of trans women v women. I'm really not sure why it's an issue if they said "Actually, you were a male up until a couple of years ago. Testosterone, 6 foot, athletic etc so you aren't going to play football against women.

People have chosen to look at my comment and decide I'm talking about the argument of trans people in sport. I'm not. I see there is a discussion to be had by those involved, with regards to biological advantages.

But multiple comments about trans women not being women are disgusting. It's been used as a distraction tactic by our current government and sections of the media, to seed hate and division. We've already been down this road with the gay community (and are still on it), telling members of society they can't be gay and that they won't be seen. We are now, again, ignoring the experience of the individual because we think we know how others feel, and what they're going through.

oakey · May 23, 2024

napolimp said:
People have chosen to look at my comment and decide I'm talking about the argument of trans people in sport. I'm not. I see there is a discussion to be had by those involved, with regards to biological advantages.

But multiple comments about trans women not being women are disgusting. It's been used as a distraction tactic by our current government and sections of the media, to seed hate and division. We've already been down this road with the gay community (and are still on it), telling members of society they can't be gay and that they won't be seen. We are now, again, ignoring the experience of the individual because we think we know how others feel, and what they're going through.

I see what you're saying but language matters. If calling a transgender male a woman is just being polite then not many people care. But if it leads to the expectation that she/they/he can access everything women have then No.

SBT · May 23, 2024

Nick said:
Why sympathy? The clue is in the name, "women's sport".

I'm pretty sure if I was drafted in for an under 10's team I'd be amazing, any sympathy for me that I can't?

My understanding is that there are (a very small number of) people who genuinely, sincerely consider themselves to be women, and who want to play women’s sport not because they want to invade women’s spaces, or unfairly dominate a less competitive sporting category, but because they feel safer and more comfortable playing with people they identify with.

Maybe you disagree, and you think those people are all just deranged and/or opportunists. I can see why you’d have no sympathy for anyone like that (I certainly wouldn’t). And a trans person being genuine and sincere in their intentions doesn’t automatically mean I think they should get a free pass either. But is it wrong to ask someone if they sympathise with their situation?

oakey · May 23, 2024

SBT said:
My understanding is that there are (a very small number of) people who genuinely, sincerely consider themselves to be women, and who want to play women’s sport not because they want to invade women’s spaces, or unfairly dominate a less competitive sporting category, but because they feel safer and more comfortable playing with people they identify with.

Maybe you disagree, and you think those people are all just deranged and/or opportunists. I can see why you’d have no sympathy for anyone like that (I certainly wouldn’t). And a trans person being genuine and sincere in their intentions doesn’t automatically mean I think they should get a free pass either. But is it wrong to ask someone if they sympathise with their situation?

Yes it is wrong if your aim is then to shame them into "be kind", just let them, how they have suffered, don't be mean ...
My sympathy is mainly for the women and girls who have only just got some opportunities to play sport, to make a career in it, to have some success, medals, rewards etc.
Even one male being made room for is one too many.

napolimp · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
I see what you're saying but language matters. If calling a transgender male a woman is just being polite then not many people care. But if it leads to the expectation that she/they/he can access everything women have then No.

It's nothing to do with being polite, it's part of the equalities act - so the law. I really don't think people understand this. You continuously calling trans women "men" is discrimination, BY LAW, and I don't understand why you have to keep doing it to make your point.

oakey · May 23, 2024

napolimp said:
It's nothing to do with being polite, it's part of the equalities act - so the law. I really don't think people understand this. You continuously calling trans women "men" is discrimination, BY LAW, and I don't understand why you have to keep doing it to make your point.

Don't think so. This is a disputed area of law.
It is being tested in many cases and tribunals as we speak.
The EA (2010) is in need of clarification as you will know if you follow the news.

SBT · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
Yes it is wrong if your aim is then to shame them into "be kind", just let them, how they have suffered, don't be mean ...
My sympathy is mainly for the women and girls who have only just got some opportunities to play sport, to make a career in it, to have some success, medals, rewards etc.
Even one male being made room for is one too many.

I’m not trying to shame anyone. And I don’t see why something as trivial as having sympathy for either women or trans people needs to come at the expense of the other.

napolimp · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
Don't think so. This is a disputed area of law.
It is being tested in many cases and tribunals as we speak.
The EA (2010) is in need of clarification as you will know if you follow the news.

There is no "think" about it. It doesn't matter, the Equalities Act is in force at this time, and trans people are protected under it. So no, you can't just run around calling trans women "men". I'm also going to assume that you wouldn't go up to trans women and call them "men", even though you are typing it here anonymously online.

oakey · May 23, 2024

Have read back my posts and struggled to find any example of me specifically calling trans women "men".

jimmyhillsfanclub · May 23, 2024

napolimp said:
There is no "think" about it. It doesn't matter, the Equalities Act is in force at this time, and trans people are protected under it. So no, you can't just run around calling trans women "men". I'm also going to assume that you wouldn't go up to trans women and call them "men", even though you are typing it here anonymously online.

By the same token, surely you can't just run around calling trans women "women" because they're not are they? They are trans women.

rob9872 · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
Have read back my posts and struggled to find any example of me specifically calling trans women "men".

Yeah but you refer to them as 'women' which is simply men with 'wo' on the front so you effectively are.

Bang out of order. Reported

rob9872 · May 23, 2024

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
By the same token, surely you can't just run around calling trans women "women" because they're not are they? They are trans women.

If they've had their dick chopped off they are, otherwise they're blokes in a dress.

Simple rules for simple folk

napolimp · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
Have read back my posts and struggled to find any example of me specifically calling trans women "men".

Post #31 is one, unless you meant actual men and weren't talking about trans women? Although that would be out of context.

What I don't understand is that you posted the following post below, about the equalities act, which I think is very fair. And you've outlined the fact that the Equalities Act does allow for exemptions in sport - and as a woman in sport that definitely affects you. Why can't the discussion be kept on point, which is trans women competing in women's sports? There are other posters on here that have made discriminatory comments, as per the Equalities Act.

Thanks.

oakey said:
Equality Act 2010 allows single sex exemptions for sport. It seems the FA doesn't care enough to apply it correctly.
If you are transgender you cannot be discriminated against in employment, housing, benefits etc.
There are exemptions and the current issues around sport, prisons, refuges, changing rooms is when these exemptions are disputed.

napolimp · May 23, 2024

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
By the same token, surely you can't just run around calling trans women "women" because they're not are they? They are trans women.

No, the law states trans women can identify as women.

oakey · May 23, 2024

napolimp said:
There is no "think" about it. It doesn't matter, the Equalities Act is in force at this time, and trans people are protected under it. So no, you can't just run around calling trans women "men". I'm also going to assume that you wouldn't go up to trans women and call them "men", even though you are typing it here anonymously online.

I don't think we're going to agree on this but I think the Equality Act does provide some protections to individuals in nine protected characteristics but these are limited and have exemptions.
As I said these are being tested in law and being "misgendered" can only be used as an aggravating factor as part of wider discrimination in employment tribunals etc.
There is no legal protection against being misgendered per se under the current law.
In practice courts, news organisations etc use preferred pronouns as they don't want to engage in protracted litigation.

Nick · May 23, 2024

SBT said:
My understanding is that there are (a very small number of) people who genuinely, sincerely consider themselves to be women, and who want to play women’s sport not because they want to invade women’s spaces, or unfairly dominate a less competitive sporting category, but because they feel safer and more comfortable playing with people they identify with.

Maybe you disagree, and you think those people are all just deranged and/or opportunists. I can see why you’d have no sympathy for anyone like that (I certainly wouldn’t). And a trans person being genuine and sincere in their intentions doesn’t automatically mean I think they should get a free pass either. But is it wrong to ask someone if they sympathise with their situation?

In which case why not have a Trans League?

Like I said, if I was to consider myself a 10 year old would people expect me to play against 10 year olds even though biologically Im not?

SBT · May 23, 2024

Nick said:
In which case why not have a Trans League?

Like I said, if I was to consider myself a 10 year old would people expect me to play against 10 year olds even though biologically Im not?

The scenario you’re describing doesn’t exist, whereas trans people do.

Although if you think trans people are the same as someone pretending to be 10 years old then I can certainly understand you taking a harder position against their participation.

A trans league is at least a constructive idea for a solution, although I don’t see how it solves today’s problem.

napolimp · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
I don't think we're going to agree on this but I think the Equality Act does provide some protections to individuals in nine protected characteristics but these are limited and have exemptions.
As I said these are being tested in law and being "misgendered" can only be used as an aggravating factor as part of wider discrimination in employment tribunals etc.
There is no legal protection against being misgendered per se under the current law.
In practice courts, news organisations etc use preferred pronouns as they don't want to engage in protracted litigation.

The reason there is discussion around the law, is because the government has decided to pursue a culture war as a distraction tactic to their ineptitude, rather than actually govern in a competent manner.

Regardless, people can choose to not purposefully misgender because it is morally the right thing to do, and it is unnecessary to marginalise people when we don't personally understand their experiences. It does amaze me how many people appear to believe they have a full understanding of what trans people are going through, and a full understanding of their intentions.

chiefdave · May 23, 2024

Nick said:
In which case why not have a Trans League?

Who is going to play in that?

Heard this being discussed on the radio and one of the experts they had on pointed out it would be a struggle to get enough players to form an England squad and then you'd have the issue of who they would play.

Zero chance trans players can be pushed to the fringes into their own league, just isn't enough players.

Nick · May 23, 2024

SBT said:
The scenario you’re describing doesn’t exist, whereas trans people do.

Although if you think trans people are the same as someone pretending to be 10 years old then I can certainly understand you taking a harder position against their participation.

A trans league is at least a constructive idea for a solution, although I don’t see how it solves today’s problem.

You will find there are plenty of people who consider themselves as a child while biologically they aren't.

SBT · May 23, 2024

Nick said:
You will find there are plenty of people who consider themselves as a child while biologically they aren't.

To the extent that trans people consider themselves to be another gender? How many people are we talking about? What’s the term for them? I’m honestly not aware it was a thing.

jimmyhillsfanclub · May 23, 2024

napolimp said:
No, the law states trans women can identify as women.

OK. I'm learning here. Is there a definition in law of when a trans women stops being a man?

Is it the rather obvious post-op answer or is it simply the point that Holly plucks her eyebrows on the way, shaved her legs & then he was a she?

rob9872 · May 23, 2024

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
OK. I'm learning here. Is there a definition in law of when a trans women stops being a man?

Is it the rather obvious post-op answer or is it simply the point that Holly plucks her eyebrows on the way, shaved her legs & then he was a she?

Less than that. It's basically when you just say this is what I am, to get off a conviction of eg running someone over

oakey · May 23, 2024

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b39fab0e5274a70034208a2/factsheet-easy-read.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjrjsCz0aOGAxXxXkEAHf4WCS8QFnoECA0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw1_QwHu3U9UkP-gUb3Cw-sh

Law doesn't really define the terms at all. Which is why it is disputed.

rob9872 · May 23, 2024

Tbh whilst I'm well aware I'm a dinosaur it's almost as if people want to make things difficult for all concerned. Gay, straight, bi shouldn't matter. The way my tiny mind works is simple, as follows:

Some men like a bit of cock
Some men like a bit of cock and fanny
Some men only like the fanny

All are men, no matter what they say or how they dress.

The rest of it is a load of bollocks tbh, which is surprising as their rights seem mostly defended by cunts.

napolimp · May 23, 2024

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
OK. I'm learning here. Is there a definition in law of when a trans women stops being a man?

Is it the rather obvious post-op answer or is it simply the point that Holly plucks her eyebrows on the way, shaved her legs & then he was a she?

This is the section of legislation - Equality Act 2010

You would be protected from when you have proposed to change your sex.

OffenhamSkyBlue · May 23, 2024

I know (personally, not anecdotally) of a trans-woman who plays for their university's women's football team, along with two other trans-women. That is not only conferring an unfair physical advantage on other women's teams but also denies three "cis-women" (i include the quotation marks because i find the term offensive to women) their places in the team.
And that doesn't even begin to address the issue of safe spaces for women to change/shower, etc - which ARE exempt from the provisions of EA 2010.

napolimp · May 23, 2024

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
I know (personally, not anecdotally) of a trans-woman who plays for their university's women's football team, along with two other trans-women. That is not only conferring an unfair physical advantage on other women's teams but also denies three "cis-women" (i include the quotation marks because i find the term offensive to women) their places in the team.
And that doesn't even begin to address the issue of safe spaces for women to change/shower, etc - which ARE exempt from the provisions of EA 2010.

So as a woman it sounds as though you are worried about access to sports for fellow women, and I presume you are also worried that trans women using women's spaces could pose a danger to yourself?

FA allows sex discrimination (4 Viewers)

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