Folklore and Myths (2 Viewers)

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2012

Sick Boy said:
I am not saying he had his hand's tied but he had less freedom than Coleman, wasn't that money raised through selling Mcsheffrey?

Not to my recollection-Fletcher raised a considerable sum through various schemes (e.g. the 'seat for life' scheme), and probably extended the club's bank facilities in order to fund MA's signings. Coleman had more flexibility in the 2008/9 season, but it started falling apart when the likes of Fox and Dann departed to be replaced by Clingan and McIndoe. If you look at his last post match quotes following the 0-4 Watford debacle, he talks about scratching around for loans and free signings. It's what happened to those big profits from the Fox and Dann (and others that summer) sales that I'd like to know.

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

They were spent on colemans Armani jacket.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2012

CC definitely was the most stylish of our managers to date-saw him out at the Saxon Mill near Warwick with Joe Elliot one time; the man is a tanned colossus.

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

We probably forked out on Elliott's hairdo as well. Cost a fortune that comb over.9

torchomatic · Mar 8, 2012

Which clubs?

kduffy said:
Agreed but no different to 4 or 5 other clubs either.

Sick Boy · Mar 8, 2012

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Not to my recollection-Fletcher raised a considerable sum through various schemes (e.g. the 'seat for life' scheme), and probably extended the club's bank facilities in order to fund MA's signings. Coleman had more flexibility in the 2008/9 season, but it started falling apart when the likes of Fox and Dann departed to be replaced by Clingan and McIndoe. If you look at his last post match quotes following the 0-4 Watford debacle, he talks about scratching around for loans and free signings. It's what happened to those big profits from the Fox and Dann (and others that summer) sales that I'd like to know.

Surely the Mckenzie & Kyle signings were largely funded by the sale of Mcsheffrey?! Otherwise what happened to the money?

BackRoomRummermill · Mar 8, 2012

I think we have to now accept that AT is the manger, I dont agree he is any good

When we are L1 and if he is staying in Post prepare for L2 enough said

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2012

Sick Boy said:
Surely the Mckenzie & Kyle signings were largely funded by the sale of Mcsheffrey?! Otherwise what happened to the money?

That's a good question No, I'm sure that the Fletcher fundraising covered the majority of Adams' transfer dealings. The McSheffrey money would more likely have gone to covering losses.

Sick Boy · Mar 8, 2012

Brighton Sky Blue said:
That's a good question No, I'm sure that the Fletcher fundraising covered the majority of Adams' transfer dealings. The McSheffrey money would more likely have gone to covering losses.

Of course some of it would have gone to covering losses, but I do not believe we would have signed both of them had we kept Mcsheffrey, so some of the proceeds from his sale would have been spent on the transfers.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2012

They were signed as direct replacements for McSheffrey, so of course we wouldn't have signed them anyway-though they were far from the only people MA signed; point taken.

Paxman II · Mar 8, 2012

Arrh stats again. Hmm.

Fact is if your good enough, your old enough.
You can't on the one hand proclaim a player gets in on merit (good enough) ahead of someone else (as seen with Clingan left on the bench Tuesday) one minute then because it suits you we are rubbish because we are playing kids?

None of these arguments stack up. The manager picks the strongest team he thinks he has available to beat the opposition. If he happens to pick a less experienced player then he believes they are good enough.

So it boils down to coaching and management skills. Simple as that.

We all read the game differently i guess but had Clingan played in front of the back 4 Tuesday I doubt we would have been a penalty down after 4 minutes?
Experience is crucial and when we have it available we must surely play it?

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

Paxman II said:
Arrh stats again. Hmm.

Fact is if your good enough, your old enough.
You can't on the one hand proclaim a player gets in on merit (good enough) ahead of someone else (as seen with Clingan left on the bench Tuesday) one minute then because it suits you we are rubbish because we are playing kids?

None of these arguments stack up. The manager picks the strongest team he thinks he has available to beat the opposition. If he happens to pick a less experienced player then he believes they are good enough.

So it boils down to coaching and management skills. Simple as that.

We all read the game differently i guess but had Clingan played in front of the back 4 Tuesday I doubt we would have been a penalty down after 4 minutes?
Experience is crucial and when we have it available we must surely play it?

100% CORRECT. The real fact is though that people chuck out "statistics" on here that they claim to be supporting the argument and they turn out to be inaccurate. Then you provide some hard facts and they cannot reply back. Next we'll hear it's only children with the birth zone Zodiac that count and nasty SISU will not let AT sign them.

stupot07 · Mar 8, 2012

Paxman II said:
Arrh stats again. Hmm.

Fact is if your good enough, your old enough.

yes that right when your talking about players of exceptional quality like Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney playing for England at such a young age.

Paxman II said:
You can't on the one hand proclaim a player gets in on merit (good enough) ahead of someone else (as seen with Clingan left on the bench Tuesday) one minute then because it suits you we are rubbish because we are playing kids?

None of these arguments stack up. The manager picks the strongest team he thinks he has available to beat the opposition. If he happens to pick a less experienced player then he believes they are good enough.

Or he believes they are playing better than the senior pro because said senior pro is in dire form. Therefore a young player isn't displacing another player through exception talent but rather because the senior pro is playing so poorly.

Paxman II said:
So it boils down to coaching and management skills. Simple as that.

We all read the game differently i guess but had Clingan played in front of the back 4 Tuesday I doubt we would have been a penalty down after 4 minutes?
Experience is crucial and when we have it available we must surely play it?

Yep your right, we may not have given away a penalty if sammy had been playing, we may not have given away a penalty if dick wood or hussey were fit and Cameron hadn't been on the pitch.

Sammy may have played a blind pass straight to the forward to score, or may have been easily robbed of possession in front of the back four which resulted in a goal.

Saying that now we've dropped the diamond sammy would have been in a flat 4 across the midfield and not sat in front of the back 4.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 8, 2012

Paxman II said:
Arrh stats again. Hmm. Fact is if your good enough, your old enough.

The above may be the case, and there are plenty of examples of players such as Zaha who prove as such. But there's a difference between a single young player breaking through on merit and merit alone; and too many youngsters being bloodied for too long to cover a squad that's too thin to run through a season. Again - to be quite clear - if you look at kids in the first or second year out of the academy - that is aged 20 or below - over the season to date, we have played more players for more games than any other team in the league.

Trying to extend the definition of youth to include players with up to 5 season's of experience, or looking at individual games as opposed to the whole season is statistical semantics designed with the mischievous aim of laying the blame back squarely at the manager's door alone. The error of this crude analysis being it doesn't hold SISU accountable for their ultimate culpability in the whole facade

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

stupot07 said:
yes that right when your talking about players of exceptional quality like Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney playing for England at such a young age.

.

But the reality of clubs now is a reliance on such players. It is not just Coventry. Derby have played 4 under 21 players including a 15 year old. 4 also at Peterborough, 3 at Palace and 3 at Forest. These players have also played a significant amount of games.

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
The above may be the case, and there are plenty of examples of players such as Zaha who prove as such. But there's a difference between a single young player breaking through on merit and merit alone; and too many youngsters being bloodied for too long to cover a squad that's too thin to run through a season. Again - to be quite clear - if you look at kids in the first or second year out of the academy - that is aged 20 or below - over the season to date, we have played more players for more games than any other team in the league.

Trying to extend the definition of youth to include players with up to 5 season's of experience, or looking at individual games as opposed to the whole season is statistical semantics designed with the mischievous aim of laying the blame back squarely at the manager's door alone. The error of this crude analysis being it doesn't hold SISU accountable for their ultimate culpability in the whole facade

Once again no facts.

Peterborough, Forest, Derby and Palace all have regularly played players of 20 and under. The only acadamy players we have played are Thomas, Christie and Bigiamara. Christie has only played as Thorn wants him to. Check Derby, Peterborough and Forests squads for age and experience. You will be surprised at what you see.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 8, 2012

kduffy said:
But the reality of clubs now is a reliance on such players. It is not just Coventry. Derby have played 4 under 21 players including a 15 year old. 4 also at Peterborough, 3 at Palace and 3 at Forest. These players have also played a significant amount of games.

I've already posted a complete analysis of our use of 'kids' against that of our peers. It clearly shows we are using more players in more games - more than 50% more than Derby. You didn't respond at the time, and to raise it again a fortnight or so later when you think everyone's forgotten what they read is yet another signal of the weakness of the position you have adopted and refuse to move away from

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 8, 2012

kduffy said:
Once again no facts.

Peterborough, Forest, Derby and Palace all have regularly played players of 20 and under. The only acadamy players we have played are Thomas, Christie and Bigiamara. Christie has only played as Thorn wants him to. Check Derby, Peterborough and Forests squads for age and experience. You will be surprised at what you see.

Yes there are facts. I posted them all a fortnight ago. Look back. I have no desire to replicate my endeavour simply as you have the memory of a goldfish

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
I've already posted a complete analysis of our use of 'kids' against that of our peers. It clearly shows we are using more players in more games - more than 50% more than Derby. You didn't respond at the time, and to raise it again a fortnight or so later when you think everyone's forgotten what they read is yet another signal of the weakness of the position you have adopted and refuse to move away from

You have to exclude Christie and the squads at Peterborough, Palace and Forest are no bigger than ours and they have as many players of 21 and under. Doyle and Carrol at Derby have played as many games as Thomas and Bigiamara.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 8, 2012

kduffy said:
You have to exclude Christie and the squads at Peterborough, Palace and Forest are no bigger than ours and they have as many players of 21 and under. Doyle and Carrol at Derby have played as many games as Thomas and Bigiamara.

Again, I usher your attention in the direction of the analysis I made previously. I'm sure we've all got better things to do that to repeat an exercise already completed

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Yes there are facts. I posted them all a fortnight ago. Look back. I have no desire to replicate my endeavour simply as you have the memory of a goldfish

As I anticipated the questions become probing and the insults begin.

You also made a statement regarding Coventry struggling to win away due to lack of experience. My definition of experience challenges your view. How did you arrive at your conclusion?

P.S Peterborough have 3 players of 21 and under who have played 157 games between them - shall I name a few other clubs where this applies.

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Again, I usher your attention in the direction of the analysis I made previously. I'm sure we've all got better things to do that to repeat an exercise already completed

The analysis is wrong

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2012

We could also introduce other fascinating statistics such as standard deviation, coefficients of variation and so on.

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

Brighton Sky Blue said:
We could also introduce other fascinating statistics such as standard deviation, coefficients of variation and so on.

MMM knows no stats - numbers are not his strong point. Perhaps I can find out what school he went to and report them to OFSTED it's a national disgrace.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2012

Weak arguments have no statistical or factual support. Good arguments have some statistical support, but ignore contradictory evidence. Strong arguments incorporate the contradictory evidence but have stronger evidence in favour. Duffy, what you've put in your OP isn't wrong, but MMM did do a thread covering pretty much the opposite to what you have-it's worth a read.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 8, 2012

You are in no place to try and castigate others for having a heavy handed approach to addressing others, as many reading this will recognise it as your stock in trade.

And honestly speaking, your approach is inane; but address a situation again because you want to look at the figures again based on a player cut-off at 23. Or 21. Who knows as you've mentioned both in this thread alone. Maybe you'll revisit us all again with the same routine in another fortnight's time?

What I can tell you is that I used a cut-off of payers within the first year, or first two years out of academy in my analysis of two weeks ago. Any more than this - for me - and you're moving towards players who are amassing experience. Your earlier cited figure of 23 if frankly ridiculous, and a player so aged would have five times the experience as a player who's even gone through a whole season.

If you do the analysis on the basis I thought was sensible, then we have played more players, more times than any other team. Specifically Derby, as you asked, our players have played 50% more games

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 8, 2012

kduffy said:
MMM knows no stats - numbers are not his strong point. Perhaps I can find out what school he went to and report them to OFSTED it's a national disgrace.

I would place a significant wager my formal education betters yours dear chap

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
You are in no place to try and castigate others for having a heavy handed approach to addressing others, as many reading this will recognise it as your stock in trade.

And honestly speaking, your approach is inane; but address a situation again because you want to look at the figures again based on a player cut-off at 23. Or 21. Who knows as you've mentioned both in this thread alone. Maybe you'll revisit us all again with the same routine in another fortnight's time?

What I can tell you is that I used a cut-off of payers within the first year, or first two years out of academy in my analysis of two weeks ago. Any more than this - for me - and you're moving towards players who are amassing experience. Your earlier cited figure of 23 if frankly ridiculous, and a player so aged would have five times the experience as a player who's even gone through a whole season.

If you do the analysis on the basis I thought was sensible, then we have played more players, more times than any other team. Specifically Derby, as you asked, our players have played 50% more games

Tom Carroll 19 from Tottenham played 7 times this season
Jeff Hendrick - 19 from the academy played 26 and another 4 as substitute
Mark O'Brian - 19 from the academy 15 starts and 5 as substitute
Callum Ball - 19 from the academy 10 starts ans 8 as substitute
Mason Bennet - 15 started 2 with 5 sub appearances

Try again

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
I would place a significant wager my formal education betters yours dear chap

I wouldn't

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

kduffy said:
Tom Carroll 19 from Tottenham played 7 times this season
Jeff Hendrick - 19 from the academy played 26 and another 4 as substitute
Mark O'Brian - 19 from the academy 15 starts and 5 as substitute
Callum Ball - 19 from the academy 10 starts ans 8 as substitute
Mason Bennet - 15 started 2 with 5 sub appearances

Try again

So MMM these players are 20 and under and you say ours have played 50% more games. So show me the 90 games ours have played.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 8, 2012

kduffy said:
So MMM these players are 20 and under and you say ours have played 50% more games. So show me the 90 games ours have played.

Well done, that’s 5 players at 20 or under, making 60 starts, and coming off the bench 22 times

Nathan Cameron, 20; started 8, used as a substitute 3 times
Jordan Clarke, 20; started 6, used as a substitute 2 times
Cyrus Christie, 19; started 27, used as a substitute 5 times
Conor Thomas, 18; started 20, used as a substitute 2 times
Gael Bigirimana, 18; started 12, used as a substitute 7 times
Josh Ruffels, 18; started 0, used as a substitute 1 times
Jordan Willis, 17; started 0, used as a substitute 2 times
Oliver Norwood, 20; started 6, used as a substitute 1 times
Alex Nimely, 20; started 9, used as a substitute 9 times
Shaun Jeffers, 19; started 0, used as a substitute 2 times

That’s 10 Coventry players making 88 league starts and 34 appearances off the bench

That’s more players, more starts in critical league games, and used more off the bench.

Now, can you kindly bookmark this one so we don’t have to go here yet again!?!

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 8, 2012

What's that I can hear? Is it the sound of a muffled apology?

stupot07 · Mar 8, 2012

kduffy said:
Tom Carroll 19 from Tottenham played 7 times this season
Jeff Hendrick - 19 from the academy played 26 and another 4 as substitute
Mark O'Brian - 19 from the academy 15 starts and 5 as substitute
Callum Ball - 19 from the academy 10 starts ans 8 as substitute
Mason Bennet - 15 started 2 with 5 sub appearances

Try again

So what's that 60 starts and 22 sub appearances

League And cup appearances

Christie 29 starts 7 sub
Thomas 21 starts 3 sub
Bigi 14 starts 7 sub
Nimely 9 starts
Norwood 6 starts 1 sub
Clarke 6 starts 2 sub
Cameron 8 starts 3 sub
Gardner 4 starts
Jeffers 3 sub
Ruffels 2 sub
Willis 2 sub

I make that 97 starts and 30 sub appearances by players 20 or under for us - that's 61% more starts than derby.

dadgad · Mar 8, 2012

You won't get an apology from that pedant.
Interestingly, MMM's presentation of the FACTS (above)
demonstrate, if any were needed, just how ridiculous it is to blame Andy Thorn for our predicament. Portsmouth who are in dire financial straits still take on experienced, older players citing the rule/opinion that to plunder their own academy would result in their team not "being competitive".
Sisu are cutting our cloth according to our means. This is our and AT's lot. If Duffy has had an education which allows thought beyond knee jerk I'd be surprised.

Grendel · Mar 8, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Well done, that’s 5 players at 20 or under, making 60 starts, and coming off the bench 22 times

Nathan Cameron, 20; started 8, used as a substitute 3 times
Jordan Clarke, 20; started 6, used as a substitute 2 times
Cyrus Christie, 19; started 27, used as a substitute 5 times
Conor Thomas, 18; started 20, used as a substitute 2 times
Gael Bigirimana, 18; started 12, used as a substitute 7 times
Josh Ruffels, 18; started 0, used as a substitute 1 times
Jordan Willis, 17; started 0, used as a substitute 2 times
Oliver Norwood, 20; started 6, used as a substitute 1 times
Alex Nimely, 20; started 9, used as a substitute 9 times
Shaun Jeffers, 19; started 0, used as a substitute 2 times

That’s 10 Coventry players making 88 league starts and 34 appearances off the bench

That’s more players, more starts in critical league games, and used more off the bench.

Now, can you kindly bookmark this one so we don’t have to go here yet again!?!

Tut tut told you not to include Christie. The selection of Cyrus Christie is ENTIRELY down to Thorn. Also I have not included 2 other under 21's who have come from other clubs and played 12 games between them. Nilemely 9 subs for Coventry BLIMEY!

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