Gathering for Tommy / Discontent (36 Viewers)

Diogenes said:

Hitler drank water too. Mmm....

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Dodgy.

Otis said:

I don't care how angry you are, you should never be advocating the deaths of innocent children.

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The sad irony of that last statement too, Otis.

rob9872 said:

Can't believe you're blaming Torch for this, he's usually quite moderate in his views.

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Ironic considering my workplace.

torchomatic said:

Ironic considering my workplace.

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Librarian?

David O'Day said:

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Oh good, everyone knows our libraries have too much funding.

Stoke on Trent, people roaming the streets with machetes and hammers. A copper knows people have weapons but says to take them away.

It's about time for the army, rubber bullets an water canons.

Nick said:

Stoke on Trent, people roaming the streets with machetes and hammers. A copper knows people have weapons but says to take them away.

It's about time for the army, rubber bullets an water canons.

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Be careful what you wish for.

We've seen revolutions happen off the back if protectors being shot by the military. Look at NI - the British army were welcomed by the catholics initially and look what happened.

This is my current favourite idiot who will wonder why he was caught so easily

CCFCSteve said:

True but he’s not far off. The underlying problems/issues still need addressing (people know my view on uncontrolled immigration and the pressures it causes on infrastructure etc) but I don’t even like bringing them up now as it’s legitimising mindless idiots, many of whom are causing fear, damage, and destruction for their own enjoyment, not for a genuine cause.

Most wouldn’t be out on the streets in the cold and rain

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But there isn't uncontrolled immigration.

Net migration is about 600,000 per annum. It's legal and authorised, hence controlled.

It's a lazy label 'uncontrolled', and implies a lack of control.

The majority of immigration is controlled, by central government.

You may be pro or anti immigration, but either way it is controlled.

Nick said:

Stoke on Trent, people roaming the streets with machetes and hammers. A copper knows people have weapons but says to take them away.

It's about time for the army, rubber bullets an water canons.

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It's getting that way for sure.

JAM See said:

But there isn't uncontrolled immigration.

Net migration is about 600,000 per annum. It's legal and authorised, hence controlled.

It's a lazy label 'uncontrolled', and implies a lack of control.

The majority of immigration is controlled, by central government.

You may be pro or anti immigration, but either way it is controlled.

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Is there a cap on the number of migrants allowed to enter the UK?

Diogenes said:

Is there a cap on the number of migrants allowed to enter the UK?

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There's rules though thus there is a form of control.

JAM See said:

But there isn't uncontrolled immigration.

Net migration is about 600,000 per annum. It's legal and authorised, hence controlled.

It's a lazy label 'uncontrolled', and implies a lack of control.

The majority of immigration is controlled, by central government.

You may be pro or anti immigration, but either way it is controlled.

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I would say this whole situation largely boils down to lazy labels. “Swarming”, “overrrun”, “immigrant Muslim child murderer”, “we are full”, these kinds of labels and soundbites are everywhere.

Chuck in loads of people generally pissed off with their lives & simmering with anger at their situations, and here we are.

Diogenes said:

Is there a cap on the number of migrants allowed to enter the UK?

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No. There are however, thresholds which must be met (skills, wages etc).

Ergo there are controls.

Uncontrolled immigration is basically a trope, and not based on actual policy.

Diogenes said:

If there's no limit on the number allowed to enter then it is uncontrolled.

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No, that is simply nonsense.

Uncontrolled immigration is when anyone can enter a country.

Ring Of Steel said:

I would say this whole situation largely boils down to lazy labels. “Swarming”, “overrrun”, “immigrant Muslim child murderer”, “we are full”, these kinds of labels and soundbites are everywhere.

Chuck in loads of people generally pissed off with their lives & simmering with anger at their situations, and here we are.

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Stuff like this fires people up too







All designed to instil fear and rile people.

I don't think "Stop the boats" means end immigration totally. It's pretty obvious about the type of immigration it refers to.

Shit wording though.

CCFCSteve said:

True but he’s not far off. The underlying problems/issues still need addressing (people know my view on uncontrolled immigration and the pressures it causes on infrastructure etc) but I don’t even like bringing them up now as it’s legitimising mindless idiots, many of whom are causing fear, damage, and destruction for their own enjoyment, not for a genuine cause.

Most wouldn’t be out on the streets in the cold and rain

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What are “the underlying problems” though?

Just going to try and steel man the anti immigration right, happy to be corrected here and these are explicitly not my views before anyone jumps on me.

There seems to be two main issues: one I’ll call criminal immigration which can be split into: letting in asylum seekers specifically who contribute less and commit more crime. But also the idea that some people are bypassing the system entirely due to the fact asylum seekers are using non conventional methods for entering the country. By international law we have to allow asylum seekers to do this so we need to leave bodies that enforce said law. Or I assume push for change in those bodies. We need to be better at spotting potential criminals and stronger coming down on those criminals when they show they are criminals.

A good asylum system if it were to exist at all would process people away from the UK and not let people in unless they had documentation and a clean record regardless of the risks of genuine asylum seekers not being able to do this.

The other is pure numbers, we should be paying better wages in areas like health and social care to reduce the need for foreign workers. Based on the Brexit arguments I’m assuming this translates to higher taxes to fund this. Where the economy needs workers it can’t find it should automate or hire only at the top end of the work force (ie scientists and the like not care and warehouse workers). Businesses that need more workers outside of these rules will just have to accept limits on their expansion. Again happier to pay higher taxes or have less services if it means fewer foreigners.

I feel like the first is a small but visible and scary and emotive problem that is hard to eliminate (asylum seekers or their recent descendants committing violent crime). And leaving the ECHR is a contentious issue and reforming it not an easy one.

The second seems to be more contentious in its own right as I doubt many on the liberal right would accept higher taxes and lower growth and those on the conservative right don’t want worse services. But that’s where I’d like to see actual policy proposals from the right. They’ve had the levers to the controls for 14 years and are unhappier than ever, and even Reforms net zero immigration had a massive loophole that basically meant no actual significant change in numbers.

What isn’t possible any way is making Britain more white than it is now. Which seems to be what a lot of social conservatives want. Short of Trump style mass deportation efforts and an acceptance of Korean style population collapse and the disappearance of Britain as a country.

Diogenes said:

Is there a cap on the number of migrants allowed to enter the UK?

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Yes. It’s capped at the number of people who qualify under the rules.

Nick said:

I don't think "Stop the boats" means end immigration totally. It's pretty obvious about the type of immigration it refers to.

Shit wording though.

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It's awful wording and quite deliberate.

Yep @Otis they have always stoked division and they continue to do so. They light the fuse, watch the country burn.

shmmeee said:

Yes. It’s capped at the number of people who qualify under the rules.

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And that number is?

torchomatic said:

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Such cowards. Especially the one who sneaks up behind.

I hope they catch the lot of them.

Diogenes said:

And that number is?

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Big

So Nick said DM him and report posts to him rather than making posts on here. Yet I reported the offending posts last night and no response at all.

I maintain we should simply not tolerate racist posts on here. It is not a matter of balance. Racism should not be tolerated and it is a stain on this forum that it is allowed. In my view it is exactly those sorts of comments that are firing up some people to commit the sorts of violence we have seen this week.

Diogenes said:

And that number is?

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What number would you put and how much in tax would you be willing to pay to enforce that number?

Diogenes said:

And that number is?

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You can't put a number on it.
For example, if more people enter social care, more visas will need to be issued to work in that sector.

clint van damme said:

You can't put a number on it.
For example, if more people enter social care, more visas will need to be issued to work in that sector.

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This is it, who are you telling no that you’re currently telling yes under the existing system? Care workers and students are the bulk here. So we either pay more taxes, or accept less social care and further education for British citizens.

David O'Day said:

This is my current favourite idiot who will wonder why he was caught so easily

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The fact that they are all happily filming each other and posting it online will certainly help the police

Deleted member 9744 said:

So Nick said DM him and report posts to him rather than making posts on here. Yet I reported the offending posts last night and no response at all.

I maintain we should simply not tolerate racist posts on here. It is not a matter of balance. Racism should not be tolerated and it is a stain on this forum that it is allowed. In my view it is exactly those sorts of comments that are firing up some people to commit the sorts of violence we have seen this week.

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You haven't DMd me?

If you used the report button then it will be looked at as soon as I can get to my computer. (working on a better way to sort it from phones)

I haven't seen but just to be clear, reporting things doesn't instantly mean people are going to banned or things removed. The ones on Friday night, obviously it did.

clint van damme said:

You can't put a number on it.
For example, if more people enter social care, more visas will need to be issued to work in that sector.

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So the number is infinite but it's controlled, that clears that up at least.

Is there (and I've asked this many times but never got an answer) a limit on the number of migrants that once reached, would have a detrimental effect on the people already residing in the UK?

Is there any point that you would say "this is unsustainable?"

If so, what in your opinion is that limit?

Half a million a year? 1 million a year?
5 million? 20 million?

Diogenes said:

If there's no limit on the number allowed to enter then it is uncontrolled.

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what cap do you want put on? we currently can't get enough people to come to the country to fill the vacant roles Brits can't / won't fill.

any cap would need to be lower than the number currently entering or it would be completely pointless, how is that going to help us as a country?

Deleted member 9744 said:

So Nick said DM him and report posts to him rather than making posts on here. Yet I reported the offending posts last night and no response at all.

I maintain we should simply not tolerate racist posts on here. It is not a matter of balance. Racism should not be tolerated and it is a stain on this forum that it is allowed. In my view it is exactly those sorts of comments that are firing up some people to commit the sorts of violence we have seen this week.

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Spot on.

So for balance (and these are made up numbers so don't quote facts to me), let's say net migration is 1m per year but 100,000 are illegal immigrants if those were stopped, which I think is pretty much the message Rishi was retrying to say, but net immigration remained the same, would people be happier and more accepting? I think they would. It's the illegal word that stokes the fires. In addition a ridiculously high percentage of those are young single males, not families, not women. Is that the crux of the problem? If it is then what answers do we have to tackle that if we all agree that normal migration is good for the country?