General Election 2019 thread (10 Viewers)

shmmeee · Jan 9, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
See previous post Shmmeee. Very different stripping an under performing company of its franchise and paying £10s or £100s billions to utilise utilities/energy/broadband (in addition to rail)

I’ve read that Johnson is reviewing the whole rail franchise model, which I for one support

FWIW I agree on nationalisation and even though I believe in nationalising natural monopolies I’d have recognised the history and said we should do rail first (for the reasons you state) and prove a nationalised company can work in the 21st century.

Was more about certain sections of the press’ habit of reacting to policy based purely on who is proposing it and others (not you I’m sure) lapping it up. I’ve heard potential Labour leaders saying they’d want to nationalise rail and getting told by interviewers that that makes them Corbyn.

CCFCSteve · Jan 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
FWIW I agree on nationalisation and even though I believe in nationalising natural monopolies I’d have recognised the history and said we should do rail first (for the reasons you state) and prove a nationalised company can work in the 21st century.

Was more about certain sections of the press’ habit of reacting to policy based purely on who is proposing it and others (not you I’m sure) lapping it up.

I have honestly read little objection (in right or left press) to someone doing something, even renationalising if necessary, rail.

Also just read that Johnson has been on the phone to the Iranian president today. When the public were given a choice between someone behaving like a PM and another (Corbyn) refusing to speak/meet those that he objects to (Trump), they made their choice.

shmmeee · Jan 9, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
I have honestly read little objection (in right or left press) to someone doing something, even renationalising if necessary, rail.

Also just read that Johnson has been on the phone to the Iranian president today. When the public were given a choice between someone behaving like a PM and another (Corbyn) refusing to speak/meet those that he objects to (Trump), they made their choice.

I Dont think Johnson is particularly suited as PM, the gaffes during his time as Foreign Sec prove that for me.

Corbyns positions on foreign policy as a whole are an absolute joke though. No argument there. Classic far left “west is always wrong” stuff and lots of virtue signalling. I’m more of a real politik guy when it comes to foreign policy.

Ian1779 · Jan 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
I Dont think Johnson is particularly suited as PM, the gaffes during his time as Foreign Sec prove that for me.

Corbyns positions on foreign policy as a whole are an absolute joke though. No argument there. Classic far left “west is always wrong” stuff and lots of virtue signalling. I’m more of a real politik guy when it comes to foreign policy.

Yet he was right on Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria...

shmmeee · Jan 9, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Yet he was right on Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria...

He’s a stopped clock. He’s always against military action and on average military action probably is wrong more than its right, but when it’s right it’s really important and Corbyn wouldnt ever use it in reality.

Anyway. Why are we still talking about Corbyn? Let’s leave him in 2019. I see RLB is willing to blow up half the planet and Clive Lewis isn’t. Didn’t expect that.

The wrong leftie ran really. McDonnell was always the domestic guy and that’s what fired me up. Corbyn was always obsessed with foreign policy and that’s his weakest point with voters and because he really believes in it he can’t hide it.

Ian1779 · Jan 9, 2020

Maybe threatening to nuke people is the way to regain the trust of the ‘red wall’

Whoever is the next Labour leader is - they need to stop apologising and fence sitting, start calling the press and Tory MP’s out on their bullshit.

shmmeee · Jan 9, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Maybe threatening to nuke people is the way to regain the trust of the ‘red wall’

Whoever is the next Labour leader is - they need to stop apologising and fence sitting, start calling the press and Tory MP’s out on their bullshit.

Im no fan of RLB but did like her response to the Guido fake news about her husband the other day.

CCFCSteve · Jan 9, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Maybe threatening to nuke people is the way to regain the trust of the ‘red wall’

Whoever is the next Labour leader is - they need to stop apologising and fence sitting, start calling the press and Tory MP’s out on their bullshit.

no issue with sitting in the fence, its more picking sides (anti west usually) and then refusing to behave like a grown up when it comes to one of your countries supposed allies. I have little time for Trump but we are talking about the relationship country not the person

Ian1779 · Jan 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
Im no fan of RLB but did like her response to the Guido fake news about her husband the other day.

It’s exactly this that we need more of. Corbyn believed that you didn’t need to ‘get in the gutter’ with this, but you do. You only start to fight back when you call it out as BS.

Ian1779 · Jan 9, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
no issue with sitting in the fence, its more picking sides (anti west usually) and then refusing to behave like a grown up when it comes to one of your countries supposed allies. I have little time for Trump but we are talking about the relationship country not the person

Has it ever been a relationship? Seeing as relationship generally bring good things for BOTH parties.

shmmeee · Jan 9, 2020

Ian1779 said:
It’s exactly this that we need more of. Corbyn believed that you didn’t need to ‘get in the gutter’ with this, but you do. You only start to fight back when you call it out as BS.

I think he didn’t actually though. “CAN I FINISH!!!??” For example. He clearly got annoyed and occasionally snapped and just looked like he’d lost it.

Laughing at their ridiculousness is definitely the way to go. But got to be judicious with it. All the fuss some on the left are making about the “Mrs Merton crossed with an alien” comment when we’ve been calling May an uncloaked dementor and Johnson a Dulux dog on heat comes across as a little humourless. It’s a tough balance to strike.

shmmeee · Jan 9, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
no issue with sitting in the fence, its more picking sides (anti west usually) and then refusing to behave like a grown up when it comes to one of your countries supposed allies. I have little time for Trump but we are talking about the relationship country not the person

Also like it or not, they aren’t going to listen to us and we need a trade deal post Brexit. Labour also have the problem that everyone assumes they are anti west so any nuance looks like that by stealth. Same as the Tories aren’t believed on public service spending for example.

I do hope we don’t follow them into this shite though. There’s a balance to strike between “Trump bad” and “YeeHaa let’s go bomb Iran”

SkyBlueDom26 · Jan 9, 2020

Corbyn was an embarrassment yesterday at pmqs..... If he had any dignity he'd have quit as soon as Labour got humiliated at the election

clint van damme · Jan 9, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
To be fair, I think a lot of the public (left and right leaning) don’t agree with the rail set up.

Most people’s issue with labours manifesto was the ideological nationalisation of other industries (even those performing ok) including the free broadband for all. Even if we’d prefer to have state owned utilities, there isn’t a pot of cash to buy back these industries. Rail is very different.

rather than see it as a negative, maybe people should acknowledge a government willing to be flexible even if it goes against their ideological grain

I agree, Labour should have had a simple policy of renationalising the railways.
A popular policy with people from all walks of life. Purely hypothetical but if they'd got in they could have made a big play of how much money was no longer been syphoned out of the country in dividends and moved on to water next.
Their nationalisation policy was too idealistic and wide reaching, though as with everything, easy to see in hindsight.

shmmeee · Jan 9, 2020

SkyBlueDom26 said:
Corbyn was an embarrassment yesterday at pmqs..... If he had any dignity he'd have quit as soon as Labour got humiliated at the election

He did. He’s just decided not to appoint a temporary leader while we pick a new one.

fatso · Jan 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
Saw a Sun story on Finland or somewhere moving to a four day week. Was tweeted with a clapping emoji and full of praise. Literally less than a month ago they were screeching about Labour thinking about it would ruin the economy.

See also the difference between labour suggesting a higher minimum wage and Tories.

Tories: not the brightest.

Spoke to my boss prior to the GE regarding the 4 day week, and mentioned that we would all benefit from a longer weekend.
He laughed and said plans were already afoot should labour get in, to introduce a 4 day rolling week rota, so some would work monday to thursday, others tuesday to friday, then wednesday to sat, and thursday to sunday, friday to monday etc.
Not exactly what any of us envisioned.

shmmeee · Jan 9, 2020

fatso said:
Spoke to my boss prior to the GE regarding the 4 day week, and mentioned that we would all benefit from a longer weekend.
He laughed and said plans were already afoot should labour get in, to introduce a 4 day rolling week rota, so some would work monday to thursday, others tuesday to friday, then wednesday to sat, and thursday to sunday, friday to monday etc.
Not exactly what any of us envisioned.

More fool him. Labour only promised to look into it. They weren’t about to force it on anyone. Lots of tech firms do four day weeks already. I do think we should be asking why we are still working five days when we’ve got such good productivity compared to a hundred years ago as wages haven’t kept up though. Workers are getting stiffed one way or another.

Flying Fokker · Jan 9, 2020

And the computer does the work of a whole office sometimes.

I work 3 days by choice. Sacrificed a mediocre income for 60% of that. Probably about 28% down on take home pay.

CCFCSteve · Jan 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
More fool him. Labour only promised to look into it. They weren’t about to force it on anyone. Lots of tech firms do four day weeks already. I do think we should be asking why we are still working five days when we’ve got such good productivity compared to a hundred years ago as wages haven’t kept up though. Workers are getting stiffed one way or another.

Agreed. I think the underlying idea of a 4 day week (slightly longer hours, possibly combined with shorter lunches) is a good one for a variety of reasons. Microsoft have proven it can be successful (in terms of productivity and well being) and in addition it should reduce traffic etc so better for environment

But I’m not sure this is something governments should be driving (for one it doesn’t really work for public sector without finding 100,000s of new staff and/or paying ridiculous OT, both of which would add billions to the public purse), it should be down to individual companies.

shmmeee · Jan 9, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
Agreed. I think the underlying idea of a 4 day week (slightly longer hours, possibly combined with shorter lunches) is a good one for a variety of reasons. Microsoft have proven it can be successful (in terms of productivity and well being) and in addition it should reduce traffic etc so better for environment

But I’m not sure this is something governments should be driving (for one it doesn’t really work for public sector without finding 100,000s of new staff and/or paying ridiculous OT, both of which would add billions to the public purse), it should be down to individual companies.

Off to read the history of the five day week.

shmmeee · Jan 9, 2020

Flying Fokker said:
And the computer does the work of a whole office sometimes.

I work 3 days by choice. Sacrificed a mediocre income for 60% of that. Probably about 28% down on take home pay.

Thats the problem. The top end owners are getting richer and richer off the productivity gains of IT, but that doesn’t make a small business necessarily any richer. Can’t do it by business size though cos WhatsApp hit £2bn valuation with 5 employees,

It’s hard to find that line where workers value is being creamed off excessively and attack it. Doesn’t mean we should give up though.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 11, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
To be fair, I think a lot of the public (left and right leaning) don’t agree with the rail set up.

Most people’s issue with labours manifesto was the ideological nationalisation of other industries (even those performing ok) including the free broadband for all. Even if we’d prefer to have state owned utilities, there isn’t a pot of cash to buy back these industries. Rail is very different.

rather than see it as a negative, maybe people should acknowledge a government willing to be flexible even if it goes against their ideological grain

Although I on the whole agree with this, it's more that you know what is going to happen is it will be brought back into public control for a bit while it's sorted out, public money spent on getting it in order and then it will inevitably be tendered out again for the process to repeat.

Privatising profit, nationalising losses.

Sick Boy · Jan 11, 2020

fatso said:
Spoke to my boss prior to the GE regarding the 4 day week, and mentioned that we would all benefit from a longer weekend.
He laughed and said plans were already afoot should labour get in, to introduce a 4 day rolling week rota, so some would work monday to thursday, others tuesday to friday, then wednesday to sat, and thursday to sunday, friday to monday etc.
Not exactly what any of us envisioned.

I’ve worked in a company with a 4 day week and it was one of the most productive I’ve worked at.

fatso · Jan 11, 2020

Sick Boy said:
I’ve worked in a company with a 4 day week and it was one of the most productive I’ve worked at.

Was that mon-Thursday, or a rolling shift pattern over 7 days?

Sick Boy · Jan 11, 2020

fatso said:
Was that mon-Thursday, or a rolling shift pattern over 7 days?

Monday - Thursday

fatso · Jan 11, 2020

Sick Boy said:
Monday - Thursday

I'd be well up for a mon-thurs short week, but unfortunately my employer wants 7 day working, where you cover a different 4 days each week.

SBAndy · Jan 11, 2020

fatso said:
I'd be well up for a mon-thurs short week, but unfortunately my employer wants 7 day working, where you cover a different 4 days each week.

I think it’s inevitable that if we were to largely move to a 4-day week then it would be dependent on employer as to how their staff were spread and many would approach it with a rolling shift pattern, rather than a set Mon-Thurs. It would have to fit the current service provision model; for example, my office is open Mon-Fri and I’d expect that people would get a day off in the week that could be any of the 5 days. Still preferable to working all 5, of course.

shmmeee · Jan 11, 2020

Can’t decide if given the choice which day is want off. Good arguments for Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

I think like Saturday it’s be best if everyone was off at the same time mostly. Obviously like now some people work weekends or shifts or whatever. But the general “office hours” should be the same I reckon.

shmmeee · Jan 11, 2020

Bit of history from Wiki about how we got a weekend:

The present-day concept of the relatively longer 'week-end' first arose in the industrial north of Britain in the early part of the nineteenth century[1] and was originally a voluntary arrangement between factory owners and workers allowing Saturday afternoon off from 2pm in agreement that staff would be available for work sober and refreshed on Monday morning.[7] The Oxford English Dictionary traces the first use of the term weekend to the British magazine Notes and Queries in 1879.[8]

In 1908, the first five-day workweek in the United States was instituted by a New England cotton mill so that Jewish workers would not have to work on the Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.[9] In 1926, Henry Ford began shutting down his automotive factories for all of Saturday and Sunday. In 1929, the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America Union was the first union to demand and receive a five-day workweek. The rest of the United States slowly followed, but it was not until 1940, when a provision of the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act mandating a maximum 40-hour workweek went into effect, that the two-day weekend was adopted nationwide.[9]

Seems we need better unions and do it ground up until it becomes the norm, or we need a religious reason. Anyone fancy a religion that doesn’t do Mondays?

Or of course we all turn up pissed on Mondays and claim the only way to avoid it is a longer weekend as the northern factory workers did.

dutchman · Jan 12, 2020

shmmeee said:
FWIW I agree on nationalisation and even though I believe in nationalising natural monopolies I’d have recognised the history and said we should do rail first (for the reasons you state) and prove a nationalised company can work in the 21st century.

There's nothing 'natural' about it. British Rail employed four times as many managers as the four private companies which preceded it in 1948. It was only ever nationalised for the most cynical of reasons, it was cheaper than paying wartime compensation to the private companies. If you knew anything about railways history you'd know that under 'British Rail' the lines not only still ran as four separate regions, but also the same as the pre-grouping regions which preceded them before 1923.

It was a similar story with water, gas, electric and even the NHS.

My objection wasn't with the privatisation of the railways but the way in which it was done which was totally ridiculous.

SkyblueBazza · Jan 12, 2020

shmmeee said:
Can’t decide if given the choice which day is want off. Good arguments for Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

I think like Saturday it’s be best if everyone was off at the same time mostly. Obviously like now some people work weekends or shifts or whatever. But the general “office hours” should be the same I reckon.

I reckon it would need people to be flexible & not be conducive to family life at all

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

theferret · Jan 12, 2020

One of the interesting things to come out of the election fall-out is the rise of Blue Labour, a movement calling for a return to the Labour Party pre 1960, the party of Attlee, a party that was conservative, pro grammar schools and patriotic. Peter Hitchens covers it here:
PETER HITCHENS: Don't dump Labour in the bin

Hitchens is not everyone's cup of tea, but he is smart and many in the Labour movement are echoing this.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 12, 2020

shmmeee said:
Saw a Sun story on Finland or somewhere moving to a four day week. Was tweeted with a clapping emoji and full of praise. Literally less than a month ago they were screeching about Labour thinking about it would ruin the economy.

See also the difference between labour suggesting a higher minimum wage and Tories.

Tories: not the brightest.

On the contrary it’s quite deliberate. Take the popular ideas of the left while calling them commies

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 12, 2020

theferret said:
One of the interesting things to come out of the election fall-out is the rise of Blue Labour, a movement calling for a return to the Labour Party pre 1960, the party of Attlee, a party that was conservative, pro grammar schools and patriotic. Peter Hitchens covers it here:
PETER HITCHENS: Don't dump Labour in the bin

Hitchens is not everyone's cup of tea, but he is smart and many in the Labour movement are echoing this.

Grammar schools widen and entrench social inequality

theferret · Jan 12, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Grammar schools widen and entrench social inequality

Fine, I wasn't declaring my position on them either way, just referencing the BL movement and how, historically, Labour was very much in favour of them because they saw them as doing the exact opposite of what you state.

I'm increasingly trying to step out of the echo-chamber, and this grassroots Blue Labour movement is quite interesting and some of the essays enlightening. Lots I have issue with though.

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