skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
It’s called taxes and they’re already paying it. The problem is wasteful governments failing to invest and spend taxes not some Johnny Foreigner coming here and contributing.
It’s called taxes and they’re already paying it. The problem is wasteful governments failing to invest and spend taxes not some Johnny Foreigner coming here and contributing.The demands on the system now are far greater and there needs to be some way to keep a lid on the costs of a population living longer and increasing by several hundred thousand a year from immigration alone. I'm not even arguing about paying full price for procedures but just some measure of keeping the system sustainable. This is a 75 year old set-up that needs some help to go on for another 75.
The demands on the system now are far greater and there needs to be some way to keep a lid on the costs of a population living longer and increasing by several hundred thousand a year from immigration alone. I'm not even arguing about paying full price for procedures but just some measure of keeping the system sustainable. This is a 75 year old set-up that needs some help to go on for another 75.
It’s called taxes and they’re already paying it. The problem is wasteful governments failing to invest and spend taxes not some Johnny Foreigner coming here and contributing.
Health tourism costs 0.3% of the budget. It’s not breaking it financially.
Health tourism: what's the cost?
But that was when Labour was styled on the Tories.Sadly as it was Labour 2010-15.
There is an argument for universal services in the system to cut down on beaurocracy. Getting rid of a mean figure when you don't qualify for free services. Definitely workable and payable with tax rises who will benefit from this and also from businesses paying their fair share in taxes.
But that was when Labour was styled on the Tories.
I think healthcare will always be best pooled from taxation personally, fewer overheads without a competitive market and it’s not a proper market. But I do like the idea of UBI in general and strip out a lot of other stuff.
Milibands policy platform wasn’t a million miles from Labours 2017 manifesto, he was definitely further left than Blair. Though I’d expect this years to be further left to be fair.
OK so that just shifts the question to how do we determine full time residents. There’s still some level of checks on entry even if not while here.
You’ve got to admit, at a gut level there’s a difference between a homeless person born and raised in the U.K. and someone who has just stepped off the plane at BHX on day one in terms of housing need. If nothing else, we’ve already failed our own citizens for them to get to that point under our system.
As I say Im not sure any anti-immigration policy is logically sustainable. But neither is open borders. Hence my interest. I don’t have a fixed view yet.
Homeless in 2019 is a stain upon society as a whole, no one should be homeless with the wealth in Western Europe.
The country doesn’t actually have open borders though and a person stepping off a plane at Birmingham is not going to somehow be gifted a house either, so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.
0.3% isn’t much (although £300m doesn’t sound so insignificant), that’s from just direct health tourism in 2012/13 on a nhs budget of £91bn, not wider costs of those that may not have ‘contributed into the system’. Figure would obviously be higher now as well.
Without getting onto the whole Brexit/migration debate there will obviously be an impact of net migration of 2.5m+ over the last ten years (4m-5m over the past 20) also all needing public services, many of whom may either be low paid or non earners (children, partners who may not work etc)
I always felt a solution to EU net migration could have been some kind of annual rebate on EU contributions which could go towards additional public services. Not straight forward to calculate but may have helped address some of the concerns and issues that subsequently arose. Would’ve disappeared into the black hole but may have made everyone feel a bit better :emoji_relaxed:
Don’t we bill EU citizens healthcare back to their country or did I imagine that?
Edit: we do. How much does the UK recover in health costs from the EU?
Last I heard was that the same is true in Scotland where the devolved Scottish Govt have control...& it is forecast they are heading toward a serious deficit over the next few years as well!The last 7-8 years record of the Tory's on NHS laid out in black and white for all to see......abysmal.
I always thought that was holidays but think I’m wrong ! Crazy how it’s calculated though...basically we were getting fucked !
The point I’m making I guess is that we agree it’s not (and shouldn’t be) open borders. And we agree it shouldn’t be closed borders. So we are just arguing about detail. I didn’t say these things are happening, I’m not sure how you’ve got that. I’m saying there’s obviously a difference between someone who has just arrived and someone who hasn’t and how should you quantify that?
If you say everyone who has arrived is cool, that’s fine, but how do you decide who arrives in the first place. “If you live here you should get full access” is a noble aim, but the detail is a little trickier. Not talking EU immigration here as that’s different (for now).
Last I heard was that the same is true in Scotland where the devolved Scottish Govt have control...& it is forecast they are heading toward a serious deficit over the next few years as well!
The wait in A&E can easily be impacted by some virus with significantly worrying symptoms, & just as easily as by time wasters who aren't prepared to talk to a community pharmacist or wait for a GP appointment first, & just as easily staff sickness. The reasons are complex...the government of the day is just one of many factors...whether they be Labour, Tory or as is now demonstrated...SNP
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This is true, it is disgraceful - however the GPs are the best placed people to assess the reasons for missed appointments (It could be mental health issues, or being hospitalised or just a shitty attitude etc)https://www.england.nhs.uk/2019/01/missed-gp-appointmentscosting-nhs-millions/
15m missed GP appointments....its disgraceful !
people abuse the system because it’s ‘free’. Whilst cutting that out doesn’t solve the problem people have got to start taking personal responsibility.
So on the one hand you think 18-24yr olds are a bit gullible, & on the other you would support 16yrs olds having a vote as well?I mean it's easy to see why:
1. A list of lies going back decades
2. Failed infrastructure projects as Mayor, proposals to build £15 billion bridges to NI
3. Pledges to offer pork pies to the Yanks to get trade deals
4. Holding a referendum by proxy instead of a referendum outright
5. Crashing the pound in the name of playing politics with the EU
6. Proroguing Parliament while claiming to care about its sovereignty
7. Getting his aides to block any members of the public trying to ask him difficult questions
8. Not costing anything in his pledges but coming out with costs for Labour policies before they have been released
9. He tells jokes
Real high quality leadership material right there. What a time to be alive.
All the other factors are constant though. People haven’t suddenly started getting drunk or old or hypochondria at a greater rate.
The main issue in the last decade is under funding. All the staff say it’s under funding. The experts say it’s under funding. The stats say it’s underfunding. The only people that pull out this kind of whataboutism and deflection are members of the government.
Fair point about the pensioners just saw that in the articleYes and no. We export a lot of pensioners, but we definitely should be asking for a lot more than we do. But generally it’s a weird system and everyone should just pay for their own healthcare surely?
So on the one hand you think 18-24yr olds are a bit gullible, & on the other you would support 16yrs olds having a vote as well?
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So on Brexit you would support someone who changes their mind...unless they are called Boris in which case they have sinister motives.Refute the points then Dumb. Is he not one of the biggest liars in the country? Did he not write essays for and against being in the EU before he calculated which would get him into No. 10? Isn't the Brexit deal he's brought back a rehash of what Theresa May tried to get through?
Indeed we do, especially if the religious freedom you choose is the one that doesn't believe in any religion. Everyone is equal when it comes to religious belief, it's just a shame that some are more equal than others.Yes...
And yet religious freedom is a thing. Because we know what happens if it’s not.
Because unresolved Brexit is by far the biggest cause of uncertainty in the economy which is distracting much attention & investment from the said other issues. Once Brexit is resolved the other issues become more in focusSo if we are getting on with other issues, how is Brexit still the main issue??
So on Brexit you would support someone who changes their mind...unless they are called Boris in which case they have sinister motives.
Actually, come to think of it - you'd advocate someone voting Labour in with Corbyn as PM...and yet he has not written essays on it - he has actually done it but the other way around!
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Struth...you seem to have a very low opinion of your fellow citizens to listen, I terpret & form a constructive argument on any subject don't you? Or is that only true when they don't come to the same interpretation and conclusion as you?He appeals to the base by virtue of wisecracks and catch all statements that don't mean anything but allow anyone to think he's standing up for them. Will just park this as a reminder to Dumb as to what the Tories think of voters like him:
Because unresolved Brexit is by far the biggest cause of uncertainty in the economy which is distracting much attention & investment from the said other issues. Once Brexit is resolved the other issues become more in focus
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I haven't always voted Labour and am open to change in the future.
Struth...you seem to have a very low opinion of your fellow citizens to listen, I terpret & form a constructive argument on any subject don't you? Or is that only true when they don't come to the same interpretation and conclusion as you?
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Oh please...don't tell me you have voted UKIP out of sympathy like Tony did?
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Always knew you were a Tory boy at heartNope. Have voted tactically against the SNP in the past
Foreign aid is indeed (if targeted properly, for the right reasons) beneficial.I think foreign aid can help though. If people have at least the basic services and utilities and a half decent way of life they aren't going to be looking to emigrate to other countries with a totally different language and culture for a better lot in life. Best way to stop immigration IMO (and something that Brexit may actually achieve because immigration will drop because fewer people will want to come in the first place.
Prevention is better than cure.
So having just watched Pritti Patel being interviewed on BBC news the headline this morning regarding cutting immigration was sensationalised to say the least. Immediately after her interview was an interview with Corbyn and they both said pretty much the same things. No arbitrary figures, fair system etc. Conclusion. The Tories future immigration policy is going to be as effective or ineffective if you prefer as Labours. The headline was bollocks.
OMG - I agree!I would rather aid only be administered in cases of natural or humanitarian disaster instead of a blank cheque that normally goes down a black hole. As long as we have homelessness and working poverty in this country I want the resources focussed on that instead.
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