General Election 2019 thread (4 Viewers)

shmmeee · Nov 21, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I didn't realise it was a standard left wing position to be honest.

I’ve heard the left talk about fully comprehensive education forever. It’s not even exclusively left wing.

Here’s Gove saying it should happen: Michael Gove: why I would like to see the end of private education

Here’s Michael Wilshaw, former Ofsted head arguing for Labours manifesto policy: Ofsted chief criticises independent schools' lack of help for state schools

It’s a uniquely British issue, it’s social apartheid and hands advantage based purely on income to kids who obviously haven’t earned it (as they’re kids). From my experiences with it they’re also rife with cheating to boost kids grades. My first GF was privately educated and thick as pig shit but outperformed me at GCSE as she “magically” got high coursework grades she was nowhere near capable of. I seem to recall a similar issue with Prince William.

You can’t be against unearned privilege and for private schools. It goes with republicanism and social mobility as core left wing tenets IMO. No one is born better than anyone else.

shmmeee · Nov 21, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
I think the Tory internet stuff is just an embarrassment and reflects badly on them. The fact that the truth comes out within hours just makes them look idiotic as well.

But is the illegal student registration fake news ? The electoral commission previously found that Plymouth CC had broken rules in the council elections in May (labour councillor resigned). It now happens again

Shouting ‘fake news’ because it doesn’t suit your side of the argument is what trump does !

A complaint has been made by the Tory party and reported by the Tory press. There’s no evidence it has anything to do with the national Labour Party at all, or in fact has even happened. And frankly, so what if it did? The 2014 rule changes were an attempt at voter suppression by the Tories in the first place.

The fact you put it on a level with what the national Tory party are literally doing right now verifiably shows how the game is played. Enough half truths and confusion out there to sell it as equal. It’s not. That’s the fake part of it.

“Tories make complaint” would be an accurate headline. It may not be of the level of “Pope endorses Trump”, but it’s clearly on the spectrum.

shmmeee · Nov 21, 2019

stupot07 said:
Fiona Bruce is shockingly bad.

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Chris Mason too. The drop in quality since the Tories took over the BBC politics section is astonishing.

CCFCSteve · Nov 21, 2019

Council admits to making the ‘error’
Plymouth City Council in fresh row over 'illegal' student votes

chiefdave · Nov 21, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
But is the illegal student registration fake news ? The electoral commission previously found that Plymouth CC had broken rules in the council elections in May (labour councillor resigned). It now happens again

The electoral commission has also said they've found no evidence of illegal mass registrations elsewhere as The Sun claims.

shmmeee · Nov 21, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
Council admits to making the ‘error’
Plymouth City Council in fresh row over 'illegal' student votes

Read the story. It’s clearly not nefarious or party political and is being criticised from both sides. It’s not even close to comparable as you claimed.

chiefdave · Nov 21, 2019

shmmeee said:
The 2014 rule changes were an attempt at voter suppression by the Tories in the first place.

Surely in this day and age there should be no need to register to vote anyway. Shouldn't technology allow it to be automatic?

shmmeee · Nov 21, 2019

chiefdave said:
Surely in this day and age there should be no need to register to vote anyway. Shouldn't technology allow it to be automatic?

As someone who works with name and address matching daily, I can confidently say it’s not an easy problem to solve.

Also the privacy nuts have meant there’s no central record for people so all Council data lives in disparate silos that are unlinkable. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s not as simple as it looks from the outside.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 21, 2019

Grendel said:
As I said earlier - utter shite - Institute if Fiscal Studies all over it

So you're an economist with all the relevant data, algorithms etc at your disposal and have done all the sums yourself I trust. In which case no doubt I, everyone on this thread and more than likely everyone in the country would be itching to see your sums and conclusions.

shmmeee · Nov 21, 2019

This is worse than any Abbott flub, can’t even remember the number zero:

Sick Boy · Nov 21, 2019

Grendel said:
She is very left wing by any definition

Of course Corbyn isn’t a leader. He has zero leadership qualities - he’s followed McDonnell all his life. It’s McDonnell whose always stood against the leadership - he even admitted this time round he asked Corbyn to stand as he couldn’t be bothered.

Corbyn is a backroom analyst. Also he’s pretty dim education wise and it shows

whatever I think of John McDonnell I do think as a leader he’d be a real threat to Johnson - he’s smarter, he’s better at engagement and a much quicker thinker.

she’s voting green

Johnson is not a leader and certainly not fit to be a PM.

I agree about JMcD though.

Ian1779 · Nov 21, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
So you're an economist with all the relevant data, algorithms etc at your disposal and have done all the sums yourself I trust. In which case no doubt I, everyone on this thread and more than likely everyone in the country would be itching to see your sums and conclusions.

A meme for Grendel:

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 21, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Given his apparent success in the last leadership debate it seems strange that Boris has pulled out of the C4 one.
#runningscared #darenotopenmymouthinpublicbecauseillputmyfootinit.

It does seem odd that if he won the first debate he would be reluctant to do another. Seems to be a thing with Tory leaders refusing to do debates.

Surprised Dom hasn't changed his chicken meme to reflect this.....

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 21, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
I also haven’t got an issue with corp tax being a little higher (within reason) for larger businesses and it’s good that they are retaining lower rate for some businesses - id have had this £1m t/o rather than £300k though or even better had it based on profit level which is far more relevant.

Although I agree that a turnover based tax can be a problem in terms of liquidity for some businesses (although in the digital age it is relatively easy to set up auto transfers so the tax element could be ringfenced in a separate account by transferring the % of any money in) the problem with using profit is that it can be manipulated far easier using accounting conventions and practices. Plus losses can be carried back/brought forward and result in much lower taxes.

For example it would be like saying income tax is only taken after considering the employees living expenses. Someone sensible would suffer by paying more tax than someone who spent money like it was going out of fashion and then suffer again if they spent it further done the line with VAT etc.

skybluetony176 · Nov 21, 2019

Had chance to read through some of the in brief reviews of the Labour manifesto and have to say how refreshing it is to see a manifesto that appeals to aspirations instead of fears.

Astute · Nov 21, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
'Boris' has charisma. Corbyn on the whole doesn't. That is why he is ahead.

When I said this I got shouted down. Corbyn was supposed to have lots of charisma. And the funny thing is I kniw those who shouted me down will now agree with you.

shmmeee said:
Because it’s not an even split. In a university town constituency it’ll be 90/10 remain and in a northern industrial town it’ll be 60/40 leave.

And also, because as I’ve said before, I don’t think anyone should go to the nation promising to ignore half the population. Labours soft Brexit compromise position is the right one for a 52:48 vote. Johnson’s hard Brexit and Swinsons hard remain aren’t reflective of the referendum result. Johnson pretends it’s 100:0 and Swinson 0:100.

But the clown Boris has done.well by saying what he wants and so have the Lib Dems.

Astute · Nov 21, 2019

clint van damme said:
I totally understand why he has played this the way he has given the leave/remain split in the Labour party as explained by someone, (perhaps Ian), in an earlier post.
What I would say is perhaps a stronger leader would have been bolder, nailed his colours to a certain position and pushed an agenda, even at the risk of upsetting people.

I understand that he doesn't want to lose voters. But he won't gain many either.

And I don't understand why anyone would be surprised by votes going with the way the parties want Brexit to go. Because how many that make this comment would vote in the GE for a party that goes against what they want?

Astute · Nov 21, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Then in that case it would have to be not voting.

During the debate Corbyn said 3 months negotiating a new deal then another referendum in 6 months with that deal and Remain as the choices (so chances are effectively soft Brexit or no brexit given the stance of many in the Labour party). Now, you may not believe that because you think the timescale is completely off and a 3 month renegotiation isn't going to happen. Everything so far says it won't anyway. Personally I think it'd be like last time with an open choice to campaign for the deal or remain rather than being whipped. But that is the policy that has been stated.

So as you say even you don't know if Labour would be leave or remain.

Astute · Nov 21, 2019

shmmeee said:
I really don’t understand why you care. What impact will it have on your life how an old man votes in a secret nationwide ballot? How will you verify it?

What are you talking about now? Who said anything about how an old man will vote?

How about you stop making up things I am supposed to have said? Or would you like to find ut for once?

Walsgrave · Nov 21, 2019

Astute said:
I understand that he doesn't want to lose voters. But he won't gain many either.

And I don't understand why anyone would be surprised by votes going with the way the parties want Brexit to go. Because how many that make this comment would vote in the GE for a party that goes against what they want?

What I believe is that Labour's Brexit policy holds out for the possibility of a Brexit (however hard/soft) such that that it will cling onto at least some Leave voters; while simultaneously ramp up its attempts to convince pure Remainers that they are the only party who can realistically keep Britain in the EU. The latter has not been completely successful so far, and the Lib Dems certainly are making headway among adamant Remainers, but there is the possibility in the next few weeks for Labour to win back such voters through, for instance, wooing them on non-Brexit policies and through the argument that they are the only other party who can realistically challenge the Conservatives and prevent Brexit.

westcountry_skyblue · Nov 21, 2019

The Remain friendly CBI are not keen on labours manifesto!!

skybluetony176 · Nov 21, 2019

Nice guy Boris Boris Johnson's comments about 'bunch of black kids' exposed in old column

hill83 · Nov 21, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Nice guy Boris Boris Johnson's comments about 'bunch of black kids' exposed in old column

Can't understand why nobody on my mums side of the family would ever vote for that prick. No doubt he'd leg it off if any of us tried to speak to him.

That being found won't make any difference though. Certain people just don't give a fuck about it.

Walsgrave · Nov 21, 2019

westcountry_skyblue said:
The Remain friendly CBI are not keen on labours manifesto!!

It should not be a surprise - if a party pledges to redistribute the billions swirling around the corporate world, the representative of that world will not take lightly to it.

However, it is a price worth paying - or at least a priori Jeremy Corbyn is confident enough to put the support of the CBI on the line - if it woos over 'the rest of us'. Corbyn is out to alienate the monied, and he will accept that loss in support if that is what a broad section of the electorate want.

Covkid1968# · Nov 21, 2019

Corbyn was at my work today in my office ..presenting his manifesto .. so had a listen. I really like a lot of what he’s saying but he’s far too left for me and won’t commit either way on Brexit. Bizarrely there was a man dressed as a tree heckling him..... But if he committed to stay in Europe he would have my vote..... Corbyn not the tree man

SkyBlueCharlie9 · Nov 21, 2019

SkyBlueDom26 said:
Instead of pointing and calling out the Tories 24/7 why not question some of Labour's policies coming off the magical money tree, won't be fun in a few years when instead of the 'rich' it will be all of us paying much higher tax

60% income tax in Denmark mate... happiest place on earth....FACT.

Astute · Nov 21, 2019

Walsgrave said:
What I believe is that Labour's Brexit policy holds out for the possibility of a Brexit (however hard/soft) such that that it will cling onto at least some Leave voters; while simultaneously ramp up its attempts to convince pure Remainers that they are the only party who can realistically keep Britain in the EU. The latter has not been completely successful so far, and the Lib Dems certainly are making headway among adamant Remainers, but there is the possibility in the next few weeks for Labour to win back such voters through, for instance, wooing them on non-Brexit policies and through the argument that they are the only other party who can realistically challenge the Conservatives and prevent Brexit.

The problem is that he can lose voters if he now changes direction but not gain many. That is why I have always been against him sitting on the fence.

The worse thing so far was on TV. It made him look either clueless or not wanting to be truthful. Not what was needed in front of the nation.

The Tories are always the same. They don't know what it is like to be poor. They think it's the fault of the person who is poor. They don't consider the needy to be needy. They consider them to be a drain on their taxes.

chiefdave · Nov 21, 2019

This campaign is getting more depressing by the hour. Journalists asking questions is now left wing.

Walsgrave · Nov 21, 2019

Astute said:
The problem is that he can lose voters if he now changes direction but not gain many. That is why I have always been against him sitting on the fence.

The worse thing so far was on TV. It made him look either clueless or not wanting to be truthful. Not what was needed in front of the nation.

The Tories are always the same. They don't know what it is like to be poor. They think it's the fault of the person who is poor. They don't consider the needy to be needy. They consider them to be a drain on their taxes.

Yep I agree that Corbyn's refusal to personally come down on one side of the Brexit debate may be holding back many voters, and it could backfire in the sense that they may lose more from Remainers than the number of Leavers clung onto. Let's just see if they can turn it around with three weeks left.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 21, 2019

Astute said:
So as you say even you don't know if Labour would be leave or remain.

The LABOUR position is campaign remain in a 2nd ref (although it's being whispered rather than shouted). Corbyn's personal position I admit I don't know. But it's the party policy that matters. As for whether that will result in remain is another point because as they say it's 2nd ref and abide by result. But even leave in their case is likely to be a soft Brexit.

Astute said:
What are you talking about now? Who said anything about how an old man will vote?

How about you stop making up things I am supposed to have said? Or would you like to find ut for once?

This is what you said

Astute said:
What I need to hear is what the Labour leader wants now. What will he go for? Remain or leave. Simple question. But we never get an answer.

You said you wanted to know what Corbyn will do, hence the 'how an old man will vote'. The important thing is what LABOUR PARTY POLICY is, not that of an individual. For all I know Corbyn himself may well vote Leave in another referendum, but it's not particularly relevant if the party position is to campaign for remain.

SkyblueBazza · Nov 21, 2019

shmmeee said:
But those with money by definition produce things everyone needs. Are you against a tech tax because they have a lot of users? A carbon tax because lots of people drive? You can literally Male this argument about any tax other than the nichest of Sin taxes.

Everything is relative. Tax every earning person at 20%. No tax breaks - just a flat 20%. Then add VAT at 20%...then those who feel Poundland, Fiat & Tesco Homeware is all they can afford actually end up paying far less tax than those who shop at Lewis's, Rolls Royce & Harrods.

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SkyblueBazza · Nov 21, 2019

shmmeee said:
Ive reported this to Google. It goes against their ad terms.

Yep...'angry of SBT'

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SkyblueBazza · Nov 21, 2019

SBAndy said:
Or, of course, you could consider that this tax is to disincentivise use of oil seeing as we want to move towards a more sustainable future. Taxing oil companies more heavily will encourage companies and industries reliant on oil to look at other more sustainable (and possibly cheaper) alternatives. That is the over-arching point of this tax measure - it’s a method of behavioural change.

Behaviour will only change if there is a financial incentive. If businesses are selling £x & making £y profit margin on it. You can change whatever you want...the investor will still only invest if they make £y. If they don't invest the business is unviable & therefore doomed.

The first thing we have to change is the ROI expectation.

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SkyblueBazza · Nov 21, 2019

chiefdave said:
Interesting as this is Melanie Onn's seat, one of the most pro-Brexit Labour MPs there is who voted in favour of Johnson's deal.

Rather oddly also suggests Brexit Party voters are trying to remove someone who supports Brexit.

Possibly because a Labour vote Just means a foggy drawn out outcome.
Brexit vote is pretty clear. As is l
LibDem, but polar opposite.

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SkyblueBazza · Nov 21, 2019

stupot07 said:
I prefer corbyns stance re: Brexit. I dont get what all the issue with asking him hes remain or leave. He said what the policy us:
A) Negotiate a new deal
B) Referendum on that deal or remain making it legally binding
C) he will implement the outcome of that.

I'd say it's better to give the information out, stand back and let the people decide, and respecting that more informed decision. Than campaigning and nailing your colours to the mast, putting yourself in a position where you lose and cannot continue like cameron, or perceived to be the smug winner pissing off those that dont agree. Especially when things are so divided.

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See...I think remain voters would not trust him when his own long term belief is anti-EU. Would he be hard nosed because of that & risk a no deal Brexit because of it? Or would it be a remain but accepting stuff that remain supporters had not considered like joining the Euro or whatever?

Imo we have been presented a simple straightforward choice & we chose to leave. I am bold, brazen & stubborn...but at the same time positive, determined & focused on "my bit". I voted remain, the nation said leave. Let's just fucking do it! We will adapt.

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