Greece (4 Viewers)

jimmyhillsfanclub · Jul 6, 2015

So....Err....what the fuck happens now then?

Yep...The greeks over-borrowed & over-spent.
Yep...The greeks retire too early & don't pay enough tax.
Yep...The banks & the EU salesmen positively encouraged this irresponsibility....firstly by turning the blindest of eyes to the qualifying conditions to allow them into the euro & then lending them money to help pay back the money that they already spent on stuff they probably didn't really need anyhow.

Not really interested in the "how it came to this" argument.....

What I want to know is where do they go next?

I can't see the Germans & French allowing then to get away with it......cos within a year or 2, there would be anti austerity parties winning elections in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland etc. all demanding write-offs & re-structuring so I'm going for the greeks to be booted out of the euro....

What do you reckon?

lewys33 · Jul 6, 2015

I'll vote for whatever doesn't push the price of a freddo over 30p.

chiefdave · Jul 6, 2015

There's a chance Putin could bail them out, be very interesting to see the reaction of the EU if that happens.

wingy · Jul 6, 2015

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
So....Err....what the fuck happens now then?

Yep...The greeks over-borrowed & over-spent.
Yep...The greeks retire too early & don't pay enough tax.
Yep...The banks & the EU salesmen positively encouraged this irresponsibility....firstly by turning the blindest of eyes to the qualifying conditions to allow them into the euro & then lending them money to help pay back the money that they already spent on stuff they probably didn't really need anyhow.

Not really interested in the "how it came to this" argument.....

What I want to know is where do they go next?

I can't see the Germans & French allowing then to get away with it......cos within a year or 2, there would be anti austerity parties winning elections in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland etc. all demanding write-offs & re-structuring so I'm going for the greeks to be booted out of the euro....

What do you reckon?

Maybe they will go back to the Drachma, possibly their preferred scenarioS don't think now Is the time for Europe ECB to play hardball If they really want them In.
I hope the Euro remains weak till I can get a couple of weeks In the sun. Beta very good time for those buying holiday homes too.

bringbackrattles · Jul 6, 2015

I don't understand any of it to be honest,you could say it's all Greek to me !

chiefdave · Jul 6, 2015

bringbackrattles said:
I don't understand any of it to be honest,you could say it's all Greek to me !

This is probably the most straightforward explanation I have read. A lot of parallels with the austerity cuts here as well except we haven't fallen off the edge of a cliff (yet).

https://truthandsatire.wordpress.co...-biggest-lie-you-are-being-told-by-the-media/

bringbackrattles · Jul 6, 2015

chiefdave said:
This is probably the most straightforward explanation I have read. A lot of parallels with the austerity cuts here as well except we haven't fallen off the edge of a cliff (yet).

https://truthandsatire.wordpress.co...-biggest-lie-you-are-being-told-by-the-media/

Blimey Dave reading that has given me a headache. The gist of it looks like those greedy bankers are behind most of it ? Here at home the lovely Ian Duncan Smith who champions austerity I see has had his credit card blocked for running up expenses debt of £1,057.the blokes a millionare who loves attacking those on welfare etc ! As the saying goes :"you couldn't make it up !"

Ian1779 · Jul 6, 2015

I'm sure I read somewhere over the weekend that Greece wrote off 50% of Germany's reparation debts after WW1.

Shame Merkel wouldn't do the same.

skybluetony176 · Jul 6, 2015

Was listening to a guy on the radio and he was basically saying that the reason France and Germany were so keen to bale Greece out is because 90% of the Greek debt was owed to French and German banks. Basically bail Greece out and hopefully get that money back with a load of interest or bail out there banks and loose loads in the process, like we have. If the guys right very cunning of France and Germany.

Was again listening to the radio a couple of weeks ago when I was in Ireland and Ireland are taking a keen interest due to them not being so far behind Greece in the in the shit stakes and a lady on there was saying that Greece has already paid back the initial debt to the Eurozone and a huge chuck of interest and that the rest of the Eurozone basically aren't willing to negotiate on the balance of the interest.

I know Greece is in a mess with it's retirement age, final salary pensions, basically no one pay's tax etc. but assuming what I've heard on the radio is correct they probably deserve some slack. Not to mention that I think the IMF have just released a report saying that Greece simply can't maintain what France and Germany want so it's a wasted exercise anyway.

Houchens Head · Jul 6, 2015

I'm just annoyed that Mars bars are getting smaller! Grrrrr!!!!

Houchens Head · Jul 6, 2015

One option was missed off the vote: "Couldn't give two f**ks"

chiefdave · Jul 6, 2015

Thats it isn't it Tony, its not really a bailout when you're doing it to make money yourself. Look at Greece's debt and compare that with what they taxpayer had to hand over to save the banks. Now the banks won't budge on Greece's debt.

Marty · Jul 6, 2015

From a purely selfish point of view. What would leaving the Euro/EU do for property prices in Greece?

lewys33 · Jul 7, 2015

Simple thinking, but I would have thought that a new debt package (even writing some off) would be better. Would help Greece recover, therefore making their economy better and making the euro stronger?

skybluetony176 · Jul 14, 2015

Apparently from now on they're going to print euros on Greece proof paper.

Huckerby · Jul 14, 2015

Greece would be better off getting the hell out of dodge. Back to the drachma, exports would go through the roof, and they would be able to do something with their wank economy through monetary policy. Saying that, it's their own God damn fault so need to fix up

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Huckerby · Jul 14, 2015

Houchens Head said:
I'm just annoyed that Mars bars are getting smaller! Grrrrr!!!!

Just trying to get the calories down per unit lol

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jimmyhillsfanclub · Jul 15, 2015

This is getting a bit worrying don't you think....

That clown Tspiras went to the country in a referendum to reject austerity.....the people did as he wished & rejected it....then he ended up "negotiating" a worse deal with more austerity than was on offer the previous week.

The IMF think the ECB have dropped a bollock with the latest bail-out making the debt burden unsustainable (Err...hello...like it wasn't already !!)
The Greek finance minister & the minister for the economy have both quit this morning.
The Greek banks are bankrupt.
The people are angry & are gathering on the streets.

There are going to be massive riots & strikes over the next couple days......the Greek people have been fucked over by all sides, banks & politicos....they now rightly trust no-one.....

...This could easily escalate to a state of emergency followed by civil war in Greece.....

poor bastards....what a fucking mess.

Captain Dart · Jul 15, 2015

I love the bit where Greek ministers come on the media and accuse the ECB of 'blackmail' for not giving them 80bn Euros.

Not sure how it equates to blackmail to provide money with stringent conditions?

PS It's the Greek deputy finance minister & General Secretary of the Greek Ministry of Economy who have resigned.

Ashdown · Jul 15, 2015

Huckerby said:
Greece would be better off getting the hell out of dodge. Back to the drachma, exports would go through the roof, and they would be able to do something with their wank economy through monetary policy. Saying that, it's their own God damn fault so need to fix up

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I'm pretty much with you. Their corrupt and overpaying economy got them into this mess, so I think that the Greeks should revert to their old currency and sort out a method of imminent tax collection to kickstart their nation again. I don't see how borrowing more money to pay off debt ever really helps anyone, the IMF have said it doesn't add up and is basically kicking that proverbial can along the road again for another day.

Ashdown · Jul 15, 2015

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
This is getting a bit worrying don't you think....

That clown Tspiras went to the country in a referendum to reject austerity.....the people did as he wished & rejected it....then he ended up "negotiating" a worse deal with more austerity than was on offer the previous week.

The IMF think the ECB have dropped a bollock with the latest bail-out making the debt burden unsustainable (Err...hello...like it wasn't already !!)
The Greek finance minister & the minister for the economy have both quit this morning.
The Greek banks are bankrupt.
The people are angry & are gathering on the streets.

There are going to be massive riots & strikes over the next couple days......the Greek people have been fucked over by all sides, banks & politicos....they now rightly trust no-one.....

...This could easily escalate to a state of emergency followed by civil war in Greece.....

poor bastards....what a fucking mess.

Many of the Greek people also created this !

jimmyhillsfanclub · Jul 16, 2015

Ashdown said:
Many of the Greek people also created this !

Not quite true Ashdown.

Many of the Greek people certainly helped to create the economic environment & conditions that precipitated the meltdown......but it was the international banks, the eurocrats & the corrupt Greek Governments of the previous 15-20 years that are the real culprits here.....

....but funnily enough, they are not the ones starving on the streets or committing suicide due to the crisis.....

wingy · Jul 16, 2015

Agree lads very harsh environment for the Greeks
Meanwhile grab your Holiday euro's now
sub 70 pence currently, almost back to the launch rate.

Ashdown · Jul 16, 2015

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Not quite true Ashdown.

Many of the Greek people certainly helped to create the economic environment & conditions that precipitated the meltdown......but it was the international banks, the eurocrats & the corrupt Greek Governments of the previous 15-20 years that are the real culprits here.....

....but funnily enough, they are not the ones starving on the streets or committing suicide due to the crisis.....

Millions of ordinary Greeks have also traditionally been culpable of trying to pay for so many goods and services in cash to avoid taxes, even the likes of visits to the Doctors and dentists. Of course corruption and bankers have played their significant part too but it's no coincidence that the high tax demanding countries of Scandinavia are those that are succeeding in the world right now.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Jul 16, 2015

Ashdown said:
Millions of ordinary Greeks have also traditionally been culpable of trying to pay for so many goods and services in cash to avoid taxes, even the likes of visits to the Doctors and dentists. Of course corruption and bankers have played their significant part too but it's no coincidence that the high tax demanding countries of Scandinavia are those that are succeeding in the world right now.

There is some truth in what you say (I acknowledged Greeks issue collecting & paying taxes in the OP) but the levels of tax avoidance, failed tax collection & the size of the cash/shadow economy are not as bad as those wishing to deflect scrutiny would have you believe!!

Latest complete figures from the OECD show that Greece shadow economy is approx. 27% of GDP......poor, yes, but not catastrophic....developed economies across Europe average just over 20%.....

The figures also show that Greece collected approx. 34% of their GDP in taxes (EU average is 38%) so again, contributing to the mess, but not a massive factor.

A far bigger factor is what did successive Greek governments actually spend the tax revenue on........shit loads of backhanders, greased palms & wholesale embezzlement.....

Anyway....Back on topic......What happens next?

Ashdown · Jul 16, 2015

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
There is some truth in what you say (I acknowledged Greeks issue collecting & paying taxes in the OP) but the levels of tax avoidance, failed tax collection & the size of the cash/shadow economy are not as bad as those wishing to deflect scrutiny would have you believe!!

Latest complete figures from the OECD show that Greece shadow economy is approx. 27% of GDP......poor, yes, but not catastrophic....developed economies across Europe average just over 20%.....

The figures also show that Greece collected approx. 34% of their GDP in taxes (EU average is 38%) so again, contributing to the mess, but not a massive factor.

A far bigger factor is what did successive Greek governments actually spend the tax revenue on........shit loads of backhanders, greased palms & wholesale embezzlement.....

Anyway....Back on topic......What happens next?

I think the figures you highlight here not only provide an insight into the Greeks poor performance but also highlight the inefficiencies of other European economies. Of course those at the top have most likely got their ill gotten gains into property or into foreign banks and will never really suffer.............it is the same to an extent the world over, you only have to look at the aid that pours into Africa and the actual amount that reaches those that need it most.

Ashdown · Jul 27, 2015

The Fix

Explanation of the Greek Bailout!!!
It is a slow day in a little Greek Village. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted.
Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.
On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the village, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk,
telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.
The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs,
the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.
The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.
The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.
The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the taverna.
The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times
and has had to offer him "services" on credit.
The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note.
The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.
At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory,
pockets the money, and leaves town.

No one produced anything........No one earned anything.

However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is how the bailout package works.

Greece (4 Viewers)

Greece: What happens now

Stay in Euro & EU with new debt package

Leave/kicked out of Euro & EU

Remain in EU but booted out of euro

Start of the end...European Economic Meltdown followed by War in europe before 2020

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