How can we put it right? (1 Viewer)

maddog · Dec 26, 2014

Assuming we are stuck with our current owners, what would you realistically tell Joy to do from this moment on? I am assuming fuck off is not a realistic option. Would you replace the board again, the manager, go for a rental option at the Ricoh, build a new ground? Think big or think small. I figure we need some coherent plan and I appreciate SISU are unlikely to listen to the fans whatever.
Personally I would replace Fisher and possibly Waggot with directors who have been successful elsewhere. There must be some ambitious directors with the right skills somewhere. Appoint a director to bring finance into the club on a keep 25% of money raised deal. Amazing how motivating this can be when there are billions sloshing about in Middle East, Chinese and Russian pockets. I think renting the Ricoh is the only realistic option at present. Give Pressley 10 more games. We need to play attractive football at home. Away fans will accept a 0-0 or a 1-1 but not the garbage we are being served up at home lately. If he fails, get a manager who has always been successful wherever he has been from the lower leagues. I know that is a tall order but there must be the equivalent of a young Martin O'neil out there. Stop all the litigation. Think as big as you can on the finance available. Pipe dreams obviously but it is nearly a new year and we do have to wish for something to happen.

dongonzalos · Dec 26, 2014

The best thing for CCFC. Would be to agree a long term rental deal with ACL. At a minimum rent. The justification for the tiny rent would be the extra publicity ACL will get by having CCFC there. Also by reducing ACL's costs by forming a partnership in all common areas.
This will reduce the costs for both clubs. When negotiating this deal get as much access to revenue as possible.

I think that is clearly best for CCFC. As I think the debt levels of a new stadium would kill the club and I don't think a new stadium elsewhere with this style if football can succeed.

I also don't think the third option of litigation against the council and starving out ACL again will work either.

However by agreeing the rent deal it would probably 10 years before SISU get some decent money back after a promotion to the championship a productive academy and a healthy balance sheet. Do that and get the team near the play offs then you could sell the dream for 10-15 million

mrtrench · Dec 26, 2014

Given your constraints, the only hope the club has presently is within the youth team. If (two big ifs here), SISU can get the club operating * at a small profit and they then decide not to sell any special players coming through and go for promotion, then we could get a side together that got promoted. History tells us that Maddison and Haynes won't reach the level of consistency and quality needed to sell for a year or so yet (who would have predicted Wilson would come so good from his largely anonymous performances the year before?). Let's hope SISU has a change of tactics before then.

However, I cannot see it - SISU wants to try and get back some of the millions they have lost in their awful investment in CCFC. I foresee and continuation of the short term gain policy of selling any asset they can. We really are up the Swanee.

* By operating profit I mean gates + sponsorship less running costs i.e excluding exceptional gains from player sales.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Dec 26, 2014

dongonzalos said:
The best thing for CCFC. Would be to agree a long term rental deal with ACL. At a minimum rent. The justification for the tiny rent would be the extra publicity ACL will get by having CCFC there. Also by reducing ACL's costs by forming a partnership in all common areas.
This will reduce the costs for both clubs. When negotiating this deal get as much access to revenue as possible.

I think that is clearly best for CCFC. As I think the debt levels of a new stadium would kill the club and I don't think a new stadium elsewhere with this style if football can succeed.

I also don't think the third option of litigation against the council and starving out ACL again will work either.

However by agreeing the rent deal it would probably 10 years before SISU get some decent money back after a promotion to the championship a productive academy and a healthy balance sheet. Do that and get the team near the play offs then you could sell the dream for 10-15 million

The current model falls down in the championship, what do you expect a new rental deal to give which the current one doesn't? Your vision is unrealistic, time to embrace us as a lower league club.

mrtrench · Dec 26, 2014

The only alternative I can see breaks your constraints. Once SISU runs out of litigation options, if we are still running at a loss and SISU gives up, then it is possible that someone will take a chance and put some real money in. It could be a vanity project for someone but my preferred option is a serious businessman that can execute SISU's original plan (building a Premiership side to run at a profit with a constant stream of excellence from the Academy). Only this time with a management team that does know its arse from its elbow.

dongonzalos · Dec 26, 2014

CCFC said:
The current model falls down in the championship, what do you expect a new rental deal to give which the current one doesn't? Your vision is unrealistic, time to embrace us as a lower league club.

It's the best option for CCFC.
When you analyse the alternatives.
However it is not the best option for owners unless you want to be around for 10 years.

singers_pore · Dec 26, 2014

My advice for Joy et al:Try creating long-term real value rather than getting a quick buck through litigation. The club is dying on its feet due to disinterested and part time management. Fisher said it himself at a fans forum last year. His remuneration was based entirely on securing an advantageous purchase of ACL. Joy and the management can't be arsed with the real challenges associated with creating a successful business. Hence the club shop being a complete disgrace and all the other issues at the club.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Dec 26, 2014

dongonzalos said:
It's the best option for CCFC.
When you analyse the alternatives.
However it is not the best option for owners unless you want to be around for 10 years.

Doesn't change the fact it is unrealistic, we can't finance a championship team getting close to the play offs on a rental deal at the Ricoh. Not unless it is crazy good like close to free rent and being handed over a lot of the revenue streams for free from the stadium.

stupot07 · Dec 26, 2014

CCFC said:
Doesn't change the fact it is unrealistic, we can't finance a championship team getting close to the play offs on a rental deal at the Ricoh. Not unless it is crazy good like close to free rent and being handed over a lot of the revenue streams for free from the stadium.

Bang on. Rent only with little/no extra revenues confines our turnover to one of the lowest in the championship. The championship clubs voted not long ago to adjust FFP to increase allowable losses to £39m over 3 years. No chance of anything other than league one - championship yo yo at best unless we get a billionaire owner, which isn't very likely given that the potential ownership of the ricoh has gone.

I honestly don't know why people think that a continuation of rent matchday only/little no revenues is suddenly change our fortunes.

At best it can only be viewed as the 'least worst option', although until we have more information of a new stadium (yeah right) we can't just dismiss it out of hand.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Flying Fokker · Dec 26, 2014

This is so frustrating. Do we have to put up with SISU?

The only way for me is stay away...That will be my plan next season. Not healthy for any club but SISU have had my money for the past 7 years Season Tickets (Minus Sixfields) .

Time for me to use my money more wisely. Not good is it? But this season is my last until SISU go. 4 games missed so far. I'm not interested in helping SISU stay alive. It was all about Coventry City before they took over.

Then I will think about other options when we get a new owner.

Jack Griffin · Dec 26, 2014

mrtrench said:
The only alternative I can see breaks your constraints. Once SISU runs out of litigation options, if we are still running at a loss and SISU gives up, then it is possible that someone will take a chance and put some real money in. It could be a vanity project for someone but my preferred option is a serious businessman that can execute SISU's original plan (building a Premiership side to run at a profit with a constant stream of excellence from the Academy). Only this time with a management team that does know its arse from its elbow.

Their original plan never included the academy, they were thinking of closing it down. The plan to fast track players from the academy through the team & sell them to keep the club afloat is one of Fishers I believe.

And f**k embracing CCFC as a lower league club, either it has the ambition the premier team from one of the largest cities in England should have or bring on someone else who has.

shy_tall_knight · Dec 26, 2014

WE can't really do anything to put it right. I expect us to stay up this season but see a further decline in our attendances going forward. A cash neutral position will ensure we care unlikely to compete for promotion and relying on youth policy hasn't done much for Crewe who produce so many good players over the years and it seems to just fund a team rather than develop the club. Like snother poster this is my last year as a ST holder its not a NOPM protest just don't enjoy the Ricoh matchday experience with 7-8,000 fans. Next year if SISU are here it will be worse. WASPS seem to take so much effort to attract fans, etc.. whilst our part time directors seem to be sitting on their hands.

Nick · Dec 26, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
And f**k embracing CCFC as a lower league club, either it has the ambition the premier team from one of the largest cities in England should have or bring on someone else who has.

what does that mean?

SkyBlueCharlie · Dec 26, 2014

I think it's saying to our owners either put up or shut up (ie get out )

skybluetony176 · Dec 26, 2014

We'll only ever bump along the bottom while SISU are here. Forget CCFC's current model working in the championship. SISU's model doesn't work for CCFC at any level on any level and never will.

RedSalmon · Dec 26, 2014

With regard to bringing in 'investment' I just don't see it happening. Am fairly sure that anyone in the bussiness world knows all about SISU and how they conduct themselves, and as a consequence won't go anywhere near anything they have an interest in.

For all their talk about a new stadium (yawn) there is no concrete evidence of it ever happening. Put that with the fact that there does not seem to be any structured long term plan to take the club forward, falling attendances and revenue,
a growing lack of interest throughout the City with regard to the football club, I genuinely fear the worst.

I really hope I am wrong.

Nick · Dec 26, 2014

I can't say a way as we are at the minute unless we have an owner come in and plough shit loads of money into the club though?

chiefdave · Dec 26, 2014

I don't think we have any chance of getting the type of deal at the Ricoh we need. We need all revenues generated by CCFC at a very low rate and access to non-matchday incomes as well to b on an equal footing with other clubs. I just can't see Wasps offering a deal that works for us. That's before you even consider the branding of the stadium.

The way forward is a new ground but obviously there are many questions about how it will be financed and how it can work with the state of the clubs finances as they are at present. SISU need to present a clear plan to cover all that off.

I'd also get someone in to front SISU. Someone who is good at PR and talking to the press and fans. Even if they aren't going to chance who's pulling the strings behind the scenes at least put someone in place who will not wind everyone up whenever they speak.

Nick · Dec 26, 2014

I'll do it for 150k a year, Range Rover company car

Although it would probably wind people up even more if people disagreed with me in a press conference and I asked them for a link or to STFU or told them they got no fans. Probably get sacked as soon as the first "thats what your mum said" came out as well

Rusty Trombone · Dec 26, 2014

A new ground outside of Coventry may give marginally more income than staying at the Ricoh as I believe although crowds would be a fair bit lower, they would gain income in other areas. However to fund the interest on the cost of buying land and building a ground would take 5,000* fans a game to pay for, whereas at the Ricoh the rent is covered by 500 fans a game.

Building a new ground outside of the City would rank up there with terrible decisions such as selling our 50% share of the Ricoh, and moving to Northampton.

*based on £10 income per fan as per the last accounts, and 4% interest on £30m, over 24 games (inc a cup game).

chiefdave · Dec 26, 2014

Problem is we just don't know the figures for a new ground. Spend the same as Bournemouth (£10m) and it generates £1m additional profit per year it's a great plan. Spend £40m and have minimal additional profit and it's a terrible plan. If I was SISU i'd be doing a full analysis of both options and working out what is best.

skybluetony176 · Dec 26, 2014

chiefdave said:
Problem is we just don't know the figures for a new ground. Spend the same as Bournemouth (£10m) and it generates £1m additional profit per year it's a great plan. Spend £40m and have minimal additional profit and it's a terrible plan. If I was SISU i'd be doing a full analysis of both options and working out what is best.

They cant do that. They would lose their bluff. Its much better from their point of view they're better off with off the cuff coments like "every football finance expert in the world says ......"

Well, everyone except that guy who always seems to be on TV whenever football finance is in the news. Cant remember his name.

Rusty Trombone · Dec 26, 2014

chiefdave said:
Problem is we just don't know the figures for a new ground. Spend the same as Bournemouth (£10m) and it generates £1m additional profit per year it's a great plan. Spend £40m and have minimal additional profit and it's a terrible plan. If I was SISU i'd be doing a full analysis of both options and working out what is best.

Dave, your Bournemouth figure includes no land, and is based on figures from years ago (I know you have added standard inflation), have a look at how much grounds cost (or even extra stands) these days.

What is this additional profit you talk of?

chiefdave · Dec 26, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
Well, everyone except that guy who always seems to be on TV whenever football finance is in the news. Cant remember his name.

John Beech if you're thinking of the same guy I am.

chiefdave · Dec 26, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
Dave, your Bournemouth figure includes no land, and is based on figures from years ago (I know you have added standard inflation), have a look at how much grounds cost (or even extra stands) these days.

What is this additional profit you talk of?

That's exactly the point though, we don't know the figures. People keep saying £40m but that's just as made up as any other figure. The £1m figure is to illustrate the point - we just don't know which is the better option. If SISU have any sense they will now be working with someone who knows what they're doing to work up the figures for all scenarios.

Rusty Trombone · Dec 26, 2014

chiefdave said:
That's exactly the point though, we don't know the figures. People keep saying £40m but that's just as made up as any other figure. The £1m figure is to illustrate the point - we just don't know which is the better option. If SISU have any sense they will now be working with someone who knows what they're doing to work up the figures for all scenarios.

Some people may have said £40m, I think you're the only person who keeps quoting a figure excluding land, so a wide variation. My estimated figures are based on £30m including land, I think that's realistic. Also an interest rate of 4% may if anything be on the low side. So £1.2m a year of interest, just the interest, seems a conservative estimate to me.

Thats a lot of extra tickets to sell just to cover the interest, extra profit seems a world away.

Sick Boy · Dec 26, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
Their original plan never included the academy, they were thinking of closing it down. The plan to fast track players from the academy through the team & sell them to keep the club afloat is one of Fishers I believe.

And f**k embracing CCFC as a lower league club, either it has the ambition the premier team from one of the largest cities in England should have or bring on someone else who has.

The fans certainly don't have that ambition. They are happy for us to finance a rugby team in their stadium, ultimately confining us to be a league 1 Club at best. Still, as long as the council did ok and the charity got its money who cares? Oh yea, and wasps will survive so let's all give ourselves a pat on the back.

chiefdave · Dec 26, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
Some people may have said £40m, I think you're the only person who keeps quoting a figure excluding land, so a wide variation. My estimated figures are based on £30m including land, I think that's realistic. Also an interest rate of 4% may if anything be on the low side. So £1.2m a year of interest, just the interest, seems a conservative estimate to me.

Think you're missing my point. What I'm saying is we just don't know how one option compares to the other as we don't have detailed financials to base our decisions off. Same applies for land prices, Ricoh is approx 8 acres without the Jag Hall, there's a 12 acres site in Nuneaton being advertised for £150K so the cost of the land may be minimal, equally if they look at something close to Cov city centre I'm sure the costs will be much higher.

They need to work up the figures for any possible scenario and make a decision with the best available information rather than just decided off the top of their heads what is best and sticking with that.

Nick · Dec 26, 2014

Surely if we buy it in Nuneaton as Coventry is too expensive people will be ok with that?*

*This is tongue in cheek, it is talking about the people who justify Wasps coming in by saying London was too expensive for them (ie Upton Park)

Gazolba · Dec 27, 2014

Building a new stadium will NEVER happen so long as we are in L1 (or L2). A new stadium will not bring in extra income, it will cause massive extra outgo. It would be financial suicide. We are much better off continuing as tenants at the Ricoh and if that ever ends, arranging another ground-share arrangement.

italiahorse · Dec 27, 2014

chiefdave said:
Think you're missing my point. What I'm saying is we just don't know how one option compares to the other as we don't have detailed financials to base our decisions off. Same applies for land prices, Ricoh is approx 8 acres without the Jag Hall, there's a 12 acres site in Nuneaton being advertised for £150K so the cost of the land may be minimal, equally if they look at something close to Cov city centre I'm sure the costs will be much higher.

They need to work up the figures for any possible scenario and make a decision with the best available information rather than just decided off the top of their heads what is best and sticking with that.

If there is 12 acres available in Nuneaton for 150K then it's Green Belt.
If there is any possibility of building then there is more profit in building houses. That means that if the lands could become available Sisu would be outbid by house builders.
People really need to take a reality check.
Sisu have done the figures and IMHO if they publish them the Ricoh will be shown to be the only option.
Hopefully they are using their bluff to negotiate a good deal at the Ricoh and Wasps are a little uncertain of their future and buy into it.
It's the JR continuation I can't understand.

Sick Boy · Dec 27, 2014

italiahorse said:
If there is 12 acres available in Nuneaton for 150K then it's Green Belt.
If there is any possibility of building then there is more profit in building houses. That means that if the lands could become available Sisu would be outbid by house builders.
People really need to take a reality check.
Sisu have done the figures and IMHO if they publish them the Ricoh will be shown to be the only option.
Hopefully they are using their bluff to negotiate a good deal at the Ricoh and Wasps are a little uncertain of their future and buy into it.
It's the JR continuation I can't understand.

It's the only option that will confine us to this league and below. Still, we wouldn't want ccfc to overshadow wasps now would we??

Neutral Fan · Dec 27, 2014

If there's one thing I've learned watching Winkie, SISU, MGI etc it's that local people are last folk they care about. It's all about 365 income and ''sports franchises'' to them.

Folk on here have often disagreed with me in the past but I really think CCFC are at risk of being franchised (for good, next time) to Brum or somewhere else.

MGI aren't going to accept CCFC long term on ''minimum rent'' (why would they?). If they can franchise-in the next small club that somehow gets themselves an EPL place you can bet they would (just like they did with Wasps).

What can CCFC fans do? Not a lot tbf. But you could start by boycotting matches with ''sports franchise'' such as Wasps and MK Dons.

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