I would back a new CCFC playing at the Ricoh.... (1 Viewer)

Its CCFC or bust as far as I'm concerned.

Any phoenix club or franchise club can shove it up their arse......

...that's a no from me.

jimmyhillsfanclub said:

Its CCFC or bust as far as I'm concerned.

Any phoenix club or franchise club can shove it up their arse......

...that's a no from me.

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Hear hear pal

SkyBlue_Taylor said:

So based on your criteria, and your own words (to which I agree actually), no owner has met this obligations for 20 years?

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That is correct. I was looking at and trying to analyse (along with much smarter, better qualified people than I at the time) the club's accounts in 1998 because there were a number of apparent discrepancies. I know how chequered our financial management has been for quite some time, though not to any great detail.

We were on the brink before SISU, we were on the brink, pre-RICOH, so tell me this, why are people now considering building a new club with no history, in BSP N, with no prospects, when their obligations haven't been met by the club for 20 odd years!? These same people blame SISU, yet place no blame on Elliott's and McGinnity's lot, Richardson (some do blame Richardson but largely leave Elliott's lot alone), so what gives!?

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I think the reasons are really complex, but in my view, these are some of the most likely:

They see their club being torn to pieces and reduced to a laughing stock by our current owners....and they feel/know they are largely powerless. Many of them have followed the club longer that you and I have been alive combined. They have seen the club in lower league positions than this but have never seen the club at this low an ebb. This threatens the very existence of an entity that has been a constant in their lives for so many years. When they see this and feel powerless, they get desperate. Many of them wish for a return to a simpler time (which can and will probably never happen in modern football)...and/or they look for a new club, one without the baggage and the crap. Most importantly they have a club free of those they blame for destroying their club.

Others on here have said they no longer feel a connection with the club. Years and years of crap have built up, and the last few months are the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were. They no longer see the club as theirs because the club isn't the same one they grew to love.

There is of course also the issue that even though previous regimes were perhaps equally incompetent, none of them threatened to take the club away from its home. Whether you or I view that as an empty threat or not is irrelevant. These supporters do not. When you threaten such an action, of course people are going to get upset especially when it is not, in their view, in the best interests of the club.

I'm sorry but I can't see much difference between SISU and the other lot, both have left massive debt, both have failed to pay debt that was obligated to other parties, both failed to communicate with the fans, both failed on a unprecedented scale to appoint competent managers, both have left us in a worse position than when they first got us (although I'd say had it not been for SISU, we would've got relegated that year, basic maths people) so where's the real fundamental difference(s)!?

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The fundamental difference between the two is, in my opinion, as I have already stated, none of them threatened to take the club away from its home city. Nor did any of those others allow the relationship between club and fan to completely break down. We've always bitched and moaned (often rightly) at club management about their decisions, but at the end of the day there was always the sense (rightly or wrongly) that those owners were like us, that they were Coventry people (even when they weren't) and so would always look to have the best interests of the club at heart.

In terms of their ability to run the football club well, I would agree somewhat that they aren't very different at all. But SISU have had six years to try and turn the club around. You don't get to make cockup after cockup for six years, then turn around and claim it's all somebody else's fault. The Ricoh situation is the perfect example. It took them five years basically before they decided the rent was too much and we needed more revenue. If it's always been a problem (and it has, let's face it) then they should have done something from day 1.

That, in my opinion, is why many people treat the two parties differently. I also think Hoffman, Elliott and Ranson escape criticism because they are seen, as many were in the past, as Coventry/football people so they were 'one of us'. I would never question Hoffman and Elliott's passion and loyalty to the Sky Blues - never - but I do question how much influence and power they had in the boardroom while they were there.

(Sorry everyone, this turned into a bit of a PSGM/PGSM/whatever-style epic)

SkyBlue_Taylor said:

If you genuinely believe SISU have the intention of relocating CCFC permanently (as in out of the city), then you have some nerve in calling me an 'ignorant fool'. A) The FL have put in provisions to prevent another MK Dons. B) the FL wouldn't ratify any ground share unless there was evidence that CCFC would return to Coventry within a set time-scale.

I don't want them to build a new ground, it's pointless, but I'd rather own our own ground than rent, even if it is a basic 25k stadium, HR was basic, some would say shithole, yet we all regret leaving it, we need own the RICOH, and ACL nor SISU is a good combination in ensuring that. People have forgotten that ACL have took the piss out of Coventry City (1.28m rent, no revenue, brought 50% sabre for 3-4.625 x undervalue and won't sell for market value, they've pulled CCFC's pants down) and we nearly went into admin before SISU, Alki David publicly said that we were falling apart and wished the new owners 'good luck' (somewhat sarcastically because he knew this would happen) in addition, he said our finances didn't add up, and this is a guy who is worth 4B so there was something that really scared him off considering he had millions to pump into the club, this was all BEFORE SISU, we can't say we weren't warned this was going to happen, in fact, I'm surprised it is only me who brings up Alki David.

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Oh so you think SISU wouldn't lie to the FL or FA....HA HA HA

SkyBlue_Taylor said:

I wasn't defending the building of the ground, I just said I'd rather own a basic 25k stadium than rent the RICOH?

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If you think SISU are going to build a new 25K stadium, in the Coventry area, and hand it over to the club, then you are one deluded m*****f***er.

Grow up sonny.

singers_pore said:

If you think SISU are going to build a new 25K stadium, in the Coventry area, and hand it over to the club, then you are one deluded m*****f***er.

Grow up sonny.

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I know it will be the SISU Bowl

OyJimmy said:

If ACL want to start a club at the Ricoh ideally in which the fans own a share then I'd be up for it. Anything to stop filling SISU's pockets.

Anyone else do the same?

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Perfect.

A new team to support for 3 years, while still supporting CCFC from afar, then when PH4 secures CCFC, they come back to the Ricoh and the new side becomes part of the set up as a sort of feeder club for CCFC.

:claping hands:

I'd only support it if the club now moved permanently out of the city.

Ive got a question say if the FL authourize us to ground share on the promise and set time of 3 years if sisu dont even start building the ground and drag it out what can the FL actually do when the 3 years are up? Deduct points? Fine us? Because i cant see that they would have the authority to get rid of the owners so we could but stuck with no ground or a shared one say for years

sparky said:

Ive got a question say if the FL authourize us to ground share on the promise and set time of 3 years if sisu dont even start building the ground and drag it out what can the FL actually do when the 3 years are up? Deduct points? Fine us? Because i cant see that they would have the authority to get rid of the owners so we could but stuck with no ground or a shared one say for years

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Absolutely nothing they can do....thats why the best way is to not back SISU and sadly CCFC away from the Ricoh

SkyBlue_Taylor said:

Bit of a moot point because we haven't left Coventry yet...

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oh god its stolkholm syndrome

SkyBlue_Taylor said:

It's not so etching you can just blag, you have to able to provide hard evidence that you'll return to the city, they've tightened this up since the MK Dons fiasco.

If you believe SISU intend to make CCFC another MK Dons, then good for you, it's just another conspiracy theory that has absolutely no evidence.

Move along.

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like I said Stockholm syndrome

I love MattyLad's inability to read other peoples posts if it doesn't go along with his delusional crackpot conspiracies followed by a response which makes no sense in the current conversation. :laugh: Its not the first thread I've noticed this.

I'll probably be called Tim Fisher or some other nonsense now. :laugh:

SkyBlue_Taylor said:

Where have I said I think they will build a new 25k stadium? At a minimum it'd have to be 20k anyway, given that I'm assuming they'd hope for promotion to the Championship in the time it takes to build a stadium. The 25k 'basic stadium' was actually HR.

Also, I've explicitly said on a number of occasions, that I don't think the stadium will be built and CCFC will remain at the RICOH, in fact I've said it on this thread, so how have you missed that? I don't know if I've stated this. But I don't want a new stadium to be built because it'd be pointless, and I only think these plans are a way of intensifying the threat to ACL that CCFC are leaving, possibly as a lever to negotiate.

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We are infinitely more likely to get at least one more relegation if they proceed with this groundshare nonsense. Our income will plummet leaving us in a similar situation to 2011/12.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

We are infinitely more likely to get at least one more relegation if they proceed with this groundshare nonsense. Our income will plummet leaving us in a similar situation to 2011/12.

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But we'll own a ground in five years and have that balanced budget,all good to go @ Otium.Thats Entertainment.

wingy said:

But we'll own a ground in five years and have that balanced budget,all good to go @ Otium.Thats Entertainment.

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Some on here are talking about promotion challenges. That's entertainment.

Sterling Archer said:

Why don't all these people clamouring for a new club etc or a club that will be playing in Cov just go and support Cov Sphinx instead of all this sh*t about starting an AFC Coventry?

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So good of you to acknowledge that people other than yourself have a right to express their opinions.
Arrogant doesn't begin to cover it.

Sterling Archer said:

Some genuinely well thought out posts by SkyBlue_Taylor on this thread. Shame he'll get drowned out by those who "shout loudest".

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That is your opinion, to which you are entitled.
Please allow me to totally disagree; imho, Taylor's posts consist mostly of one-sided, opinionated rants that bear little resemblance to reality.

SkyBlueSwiss said:

That is you opinion, to which you are entitled.
Please allow me to totally disagree; imho, Taylor's posts consist mostly of one-sided, opinionated rants that bear little resemblance to reality.

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Just look at Taylor's posts on how he thinks next season will go. He will be in for a rude awakening if things don't change big time.

SkyBlueSwiss said:

So good of you to acknowledge that people other than yourself have a right to express their opinions.
Arrogant doesn't begin to cover it.

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Whooooosh! Thats the sound of you missing my point.

"I will only support a Coventry based side that plays in Coventry!!!!!"

There is one. Coventry Sphinx. Why go to all the trouble of creating some new 'AFC Phoenix rising from the ashes sky blues cov fans FC' when there's a Cov side on your doorstep?

Or is it another way of morons saying "look how great a fan of Coventry I am that I would follow a brand new club because that's what would make me look great and loyal."

The reasoning for a new club is melodramatic hyperbole with a dash of attention seeking and doesn't make sense with Sphinx right on your doorstep.

Reminds me of Manchester United fans wearing the green and gold scarfs whilst spending £100 in the Old Trafford megastore before a game.

Sterling Archer said:

Whooooosh! Thats the sound of you missing my point.

"I will only support a Coventry based side that plays in Coventry!!!!!"

There is one. Coventry Sphinx. Why go to all the trouble of creating some new 'AFC Phoenix rising from the ashes sky blues cov fans FC' when there's a Cov side on your doorstep?

Or is it another way of morons saying "look how great a fan of Coventry I am that I would follow a brand new club because that's what would make me look great and loyal."

The reasoning for a new club is melodramatic hyperbole with a dash of attention seeking and doesn't make sense with Sphinx right on your doorstep.

Reminds me of Manchester United fans wearing the green and gold scarfs whilst spending £100 in the Old Trafford megastore before a game.

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No, not missing your point at all, and the way you expressed yourself comes across as arrogant no matter what point you were or were not trying to make.
And the point that people with a different opinion to yours are trying to make you understand is that if their club is taken out of Coventry, then it is no longer their club, and therefore they would like to replace it with a new club - a Phoenix club - which would then be the club that THEY support. They are not Sphynx, Leamington, Nuneaton etc. supporters.
They are not asking YOU to support it. They are stating what THEY would like to happen for THEM.
Why does that upset you? Why do you feel you have to attack them? Surely they have every right to do this?. If you don't agree with them, that is your prerogative and you can go to Walsall or Birmingham and follow "Coventry" in those towns, but please allow people who consider that a "Coventry" team playing in Birmingham no longer to be a "Coventry" team to form a new club that they feel is indeed a Coventry team that is their team and that they feel they can support.

The one thing that is most clear, in this great mess.....

How divided we have become as fans of Coventry city.

No wonder that we cannot rally a cohesive plan or action to move forward - we cannot agree on what is wrong, let alone how to put it right.

Sisu really have achieved the old saying.......divide and conquer

Unsurprisingly, we are of no interest to the Fl etc, they just want to see the new season's matches fulfilled, with minimum effort. They have paid greater consideration to the plight of Portsmouth for two reasons -

Firstly, their fans are more united in their efforts and beliefs

Secondly, because of the first point, they are in the eye of media attention, far more than we are. The government will also be aware of the image of football being further tarnished by bad financial management and wrong decisions by the organising authorities.

A quote from The Penguin's earlier post:

'They see their club being torn to pieces and reduced to a laughing stock by our current owners....and they feel/know they are largely powerless. Many of them have followed the club longer that you and I have been alive combined. They have seen the club in lower league positions than this but have never seen the club at this low an ebb. This threatens the very existence of an entity that has been a constant in their lives for so many years. When they see this and feel powerless, they get desperate. Many of them wish for a return to a simpler time (which can and will probably never happen in modern football)...and/or they look for a new club, one without the baggage and the crap. Most importantly they have a club free of those they blame for destroying their club.

Others on here have said they no longer feel a connection with the club. Years and years of crap have built up, and the last few months are the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were. They no longer see the club as theirs because the club isn't the same one they grew to love.

There is of course also the issue that even though previous regimes were perhaps equally incompetent, none of them threatened to take the club away from its home. Whether you or I view that as an empty threat or not is irrelevant. These supporters do not. When you threaten such an action, of course people are going to get upset especially when it is not, in their view, in the best interests of the club.'


I for one think The Penguin has hit the proverbial nail on the head here, and summed up my feelings exactly.

There was an 'AFC Coventry/Coventry Phoenix' thread a few weeks ago - what's to stop Preston Haskell IV buying into the Ricoh (he is a property tycoon after all) while also setting up a new club to play there?

I'm sure that with the right finances and personnel it could be a rollercoaster ride up the leagues. I would enjoy supporting it.

Eventually, as Otis mentioned, the opportunity to buy CCFC from SISU might arise after a few more seasons of decline.

Sell the new club to responsible owners, bring CCFC back to its fans and we could have a win-win situation: CCFC owning a stake at the Ricoh, and a fledgeling new club ('feeder club' as Otis suggested??) to support as well.

(Look at Real Madrid and Castilla for example.)

And for what it's worth we're all entitled to our points of view. But surely we all must agree that something's got to change.

SkyBlueSwiss said:

And the point that people with a different opinion to yours are trying to make you understand is that if their club is taken out of Coventry, then it is no longer their club, and therefore they would like to replace it with a new club - a Phoenix club - which would then be the club that THEY support. They are not Sphynx, Leamington, Nuneaton etc. supporters.
They are not asking YOU to support it. They are stating what THEY would like to happen for THEM.
Why does that upset you? Why do you feel you have to attack them? Surely they have every right to do this?. If you don't agree with them, that is your prerogative and you can go to Walsall or Birmingham and follow "Coventry" in those towns, but please allow people who consider that a "Coventry" team playing in Birmingham no longer to be a "Coventry" team to form a new club that they feel is indeed a Coventry team that is their team and that they feel they can support.

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a) Coventry City FC will still exist regardless of some uppity, attention seeking, holier than thou fans starting a phoenix club in the Coventry and Warwickshire Sunday League Division 7.

b) My point is aimed at people who want to support a Coventry based club when Sphnix is a Coventry based club. For the reasons they give, it would make sense to support Sphinx unless (like I fear) they want to massage their egos with this new phoenix club ... which won't happen. If we have a fanbase which has 32k fans turn up when they might get a ticket to Wembley in the same month we get 9k for for a league game, do you really think the apathy won't stretch as far as watching a phoenix side?

c) Were the Brighton fans who followed their club to Gillingham through the tough times, no longer Brighton fans? Or where they a cracking support who actually SUPPORTED their team through thick and thin regardless? Were they Gillingham fans? Were they Gillingham reserves fans?

d) I'm not attacking anyone personally, I'm just trying to point out how ludicrous the notion is.

Summary: Again, fans only mention this silly notion of a phoenix club because they want to be told how great a fan they are. If they really want to support a club based in Cov why create a new one with Sphinx on their doorstep "BUT THAT WON'T BE CCFC", correct and neither will Phoenix Coventry FC.

Coventry City FC will always be Coventry City FC.

Owners, players, managers, tea ladies, stadiums come and go, but us the fans will always be here. Unless of course, we want a pat on the back for support Cov Phoenix FC.

Sterling Archer said:

c) Were the Brighton fans who followed their club to Gillingham through the tough times, no longer Brighton fans? Or where they a cracking support who actually SUPPORTED their team through thick and thin regardless? Were they Gillingham fans? Were they Gillingham reserves fans?

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Completely different-Brighton's ground was sold by the owners for retail development and they physically had nowhere else to go. We can use the Ricoh any time.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Completely different-Brighton's ground was sold by the owners for retail development and they physically had nowhere else to go. We can use the Ricoh any time.

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MMM sounds familiar bar the fact had someone not stepped up to the plate we'd have done a Brighton for the last 7 yrs or be renting HR Still .

wingy said:

MMM sounds familiar bar the fact had someone not stepped up to the plate we'd have done a Brighton for the last 7 yrs or be renting HR Still .

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Yes, although Brighton's owners did it with the pure intention of pocketing the cash. Wait, that's what Richardson did :facepalm:

Sterling Archer said:

a) Coventry City FC will still exist regardless of some uppity, attention seeking, holier than thou fans starting a phoenix club in the Coventry and Warwickshire Sunday League Division 7.

b) My point is aimed at people who want to support a Coventry based club when Sphnix is a Coventry based club. For the reasons they give, it would make sense to support Sphinx unless (like I fear) they want to massage their egos with this new phoenix club ... which won't happen. If we have a fanbase which has 32k fans turn up when they might get a ticket to Wembley in the same month we get 9k for for a league game, do you really think the apathy won't stretch as far as watching a phoenix side?

c) Were the Brighton fans who followed their club to Gillingham through the tough times, no longer Brighton fans? Or where they a cracking support who actually SUPPORTED their team through thick and thin regardless? Were they Gillingham fans? Were they Gillingham reserves fans?

d) I'm not attacking anyone personally, I'm just trying to point out how ludicrous the notion is.

Summary: Again, fans only mention this silly notion of a phoenix club because they want to be told how great a fan they are. If they really want to support a club based in Cov why create a new one with Sphinx on their doorstep "BUT THAT WON'T BE CCFC", correct and neither will Phoenix Coventry FC.

Coventry City FC will always be Coventry City FC.

Owners, players, managers, tea ladies, stadiums come and go, but us the fans will always be here. Unless of course, we want a pat on the back for support Cov Phoenix FC.

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Bloody Hell, arrogant doesn't even begin to describe you.
"Not attacking anyone" he says. You could have fooled me!
I too would like to see a Phoenix club under the given circumstances. Am I arrogant, am I uppity, am I attention seeking?
You, sir, are arrogant, and apparently somewhat thick as well if this is all you can contribute to what was a serious discussion.
If you disagree with the proposition, then say so and state why that is your opinion, but kindly leave the stupid and arrogant remarks out of it.
Thanks you!

I do think some people may be missing the point slightly.

Sphinx is Sphinx and it already has it's own supporters and I would guess that some of them do not also support Coventry City.

They have always been there. Why haven't any of us gone to watch them when the City have played away over the years?

The fact is, any new phoenix club would be created by City fans for City fans. It will be their club rather than them piggy backing on the back of an existing club belonging to someone else.

Can people not see that? I can therefore fully understand why people are speaking in terms of a brand new club rather than trying to hijack someone elses.

SkyBlueSwiss said:

Bloody Hell, arrogant doesn't even begin to describe you.
"Not attacking anyone" he says. You could have fooled me!
I too would like to see a Phoenix club under the given circumstances. Am I arrogant, am I uppity, am I attention seeking?
You, sir, are arrogant, and apparently somewhat thick as well if this is all you can contribute to what was a serious discussion.
If you disagree with the proposition, then say so and state why that is your opinion, but kindly leave the stupid and arrogant remarks out of it.
Thanks you!

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No you're not arrogant your just removed. You live in a land where cuckoo clocks are regarded in higher regard that football clubs. It ultimately means you view things with dispassion. I want to watch Coventry city in league one at the Ricoh. You can develop principals as you will never watch them. Your view is as irrelevant as West Ham going on a tour of Norway many years ago.

Sterling Archer said:

Whooooosh! Thats the sound of you missing my point.

"I will only support a Coventry based side that plays in Coventry!!!!!"

There is one. Coventry Sphinx. Why go to all the trouble of creating some new 'AFC Phoenix rising from the ashes sky blues cov fans FC' when there's a Cov side on your doorstep?

Or is it another way of morons saying "look how great a fan of Coventry I am that I would follow a brand new club because that's what would make me look great and loyal."

The reasoning for a new club is melodramatic hyperbole with a dash of attention seeking and doesn't make sense with Sphinx right on your doorstep.

Reminds me of Manchester United fans wearing the green and gold scarfs whilst spending £100 in the Old Trafford megastore before a game.

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Starting a new club you could have fan ownership and a realistic prospect of climbing the leagues. Sphinx were unable to be promoted from the MFA last year as they failed ground grading and they would be owned by someone else.

I am seriously thinking it would be something I would like to be involved in. First and foremost I am a CCFC fan. What I would want from a new club is to be able to take me and my family along to a game. Have fun, sing a few songs and still have some money left in my pocket at the end of it.

Lets face it, following CCFC is expensive and it sure as hell isn't fun at the moment. Everyone has an opinion on how the club should be run but no one has a say. A new club actually makes some sense at the moment. I know an FC United fan through work (he is from Manchester) and whilst he still follows Man Utd he reckons he has much more fun watching FC United. FC United still class themselves as Man Utd fans.

Have a look around their website about what they are all about. It's quite interesting and has made me think it would be something worthwhile to do.

http://www.fc-utd.co.uk/

Obviously this wouldn't be for everyone though.

Sterling Archer said:

a) Coventry City FC will still exist regardless of some uppity, attention seeking, holier than thou fans starting a phoenix club in the Coventry and Warwickshire Sunday League Division 7.

b) My point is aimed at people who want to support a Coventry based club when Sphnix is a Coventry based club. For the reasons they give, it would make sense to support Sphinx unless (like I fear) they want to massage their egos with this new phoenix club ... which won't happen. If we have a fanbase which has 32k fans turn up when they might get a ticket to Wembley in the same month we get 9k for for a league game, do you really think the apathy won't stretch as far as watching a phoenix side?

c) Were the Brighton fans who followed their club to Gillingham through the tough times, no longer Brighton fans? Or where they a cracking support who actually SUPPORTED their team through thick and thin regardless? Were they Gillingham fans? Were they Gillingham reserves fans?

d) I'm not attacking anyone personally, I'm just trying to point out how ludicrous the notion is.

Summary: Again, fans only mention this silly notion of a phoenix club because they want to be told how great a fan they are. If they really want to support a club based in Cov why create a new one with Sphinx on their doorstep "BUT THAT WON'T BE CCFC", correct and neither will Phoenix Coventry FC.

Coventry City FC will always be Coventry City FC.

Owners, players, managers, tea ladies, stadiums come and go, but us the fans will always be here. Unless of course, we want a pat on the back for support Cov Phoenix FC.

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A) Coventry City Fc Ltd (Holdings or other related companies) will still exist, the club will be gone. It clearly will not be the same club if it leaves the city.

B) I'm not a Sphinx fan, I like seeing them do well, but they would not be my club. A new club would be a continuation of the sky blues. As for getting more fans for a potential Wembley trip compared to a mid table division 3 game, if you don't understand why then you don't understand football.

C) Are these the same Brighton fans who caused a points deduction for their club (through pitch invasions protesting against the clubs move), which almost resulted in the club being relegated to the conference?

Otis said:

I do think some people may be missing the point slightly.

Sphinx is Sphinx and it already has it's own supporters and I would guess that some of them do not also support Coventry City.

They have always been there. Why haven't any of us gone to watch them when the City have played away over the years?

The fact is, any new phoenix club would be created by City fans for City fans. It will be their club rather than them piggy backing on the back of an existing club belonging to someone else.

Can people not see that? I can therefore fully understand why people are speaking in terms of a brand new club rather than trying to hijack someone elses.

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Nail on the head.

bigfatronssba said:

A) Coventry City Fc Ltd (Holdings or other related companies) will still exist, the club will be gone. It clearly will not be the same club if it leaves the city.

B) I'm not a Sphinx fan, I like seeing them do well, but they would not be my club. A new club would be a continuation of the sky blues. As for getting more fans for a potential Wembley trip compared to a mid table division 3 game, if you don't understand why then you don't understand football.

C) Are these the same Brighton fans who caused a points deduction for their club (through pitch invasions protesting against the clubs move), which almost resulted in the club being relegated to the conference?

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Almost resulted in a points deduction? Really? Any evidence?

Would fans have to share in the rent payments too? Hope you've got deep pockets.

OyJimmy said:

If ACL want to start a club at the Ricoh ideally in which the fans own a share then I'd be up for it. Anything to stop filling SISU's pockets.

Anyone else do the same?

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