Income streams from the Ricoh (2 Viewers)

[QUOTE="Bridport_SBA, post: 1246011, member: 9051
...the real reason for my post was to rubbish this idea that we somehow need to our own Stadium ...
QUOTE]
Exactly this, the stadium is a falicy, I honestly don't believe anybody on this Forum or Anywhere else
ever gave F&B, 365 days a year, car parking or any other fucking revenue a second thought.
It's bollocks, until TF & JS changed their tack too ownership & revenues, nobody gave it a second
Thought, they have literally said it so many times 'that people have become convinced"

thekidfromstrettoncamp said:

People keep saying the rent will probably go up substantially not so sure our one bargaining chip surely is they need us to get a good deal on the naming right of the stadium if only we could get rid of SUSI things would get 100 of % better .I do not think they are so bad as some make out if they were we would be sitting in yellow and black seats now. I think the perfect situation for them would be to have 2 successful sides playing in 1 stadium .As for SUSI the way their alienating the fans next season all they will afford is to play on the park pitches so they had better not upset the CCC anymore.

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Wasps are embedded in the city now, they don't need a league two bound football club to sweeten any deal, we are the ones who need them.

After the Sisu/CCC finance coarse we are all now better informed.
I can see the benefits of getting access to matchday incomes.
For instance Wasps can give away tickets knowing that people buying F&B will contribute to their revenues.
We only get 15% of these revenues from items sold on the concourse.
Non matchday revenues all go to Wasps but there is nothing to stop Sisu/CCFC building these venues offsite.
However, this comes with on costs in respect of running these venues.
Stick with the Ricoh, drop the legal nonsense and get a deal with Wasps.
Above all though, tell the fans the plan and not feed them bullsh1t.

The further down the pyramid you go the more important other incomes become because they form a bigger percentage of a smaller income pot. Seems to be an indication of the mind set and ambition of the owners & directors then that they place such heavy emphasis on the other incomes.

take the F&B's generated 2015/16. The net profit was 144k split two ways. That is not the F&B turnover that's nearer £475k. Like it or not Compass have a supply contract for all events at the stadium not just CCFC matches so all events carry their cost. Should Wasps who own the stadium not earn from the arrangement when the risk and cost is bourne by them? CCFC contribute nothing to costs or risk. The difference to the player budget brought about by F&B net profit all going to CCFC would be £86400.

They could of course develop other income streams away from match day but they don't have the staff and wont invest the money ...... its far easier to blame everyone else (and cheaper)

There seems to be a perception that others should gift the rights to income to CCFC, now you might have a moral argument on a match day to elements of incomes, but non match day incomes? - why would CCFC have any access to these when they are not on site at those times, share no cost, provide no man power, take no risk and do not attract the income by use of their name. Its completely misleading to suggest that CCFC are denied access to non match day incomes because that implies they have a right to them in the first place or that they were prepared to fund/risk/man/attract those income streams in the second place

shy_tall_knight said:

I'm not saying we have a right to these incomes and there has to be capital invested to generate these incomes in all lines of business, I'm glad I started this thread whilst its unlikely we will ever move to a new stadium I can't think of how it can ever work for us at the Ricoh whilst wee are a tenant - off site revenue streams won't work, - as much as I hate the concept of WASPS being here, unfortunately we will have to work with them but I can't see us ever being able to generate the income to compete in the championship.

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Competing in the Championship with a 20,000 crowd should keep us there regardless of other incomes.
Getting a good medium term deal with Wasps should help.
But getting to the PL is impossible without a lot of luck and/or some heavy investment from a sugar daddy.
Once in the PL rent will be irrelevant.

shy_tall_knight said:

I'm not saying we have a right to these incomes and there has to be capital invested to generate these incomes in all lines of business, I'm glad I started this thread whilst its unlikely we will ever move to a new stadium I can't think of how it can ever work for us at the Ricoh whilst wee are a tenant - off site revenue streams won't work, - as much as I hate the concept of WASPS being here, unfortunately we will have to work with them but I can't see us ever being able to generate the income to compete in the championship.

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Correct. No ones said we have a right to them. We don't, but we do need them especially outside the PL. I'll again point to Walsall who despite having half the size of our attendances, have a turnover of around 40% higher than us.

Interesting point about costs, I can only assume due to acl's dismal financial performance and wasps continuing to struggle to make ends meat, that the Ricoh is an overly expensive site to run, added to that the huge debt and annual interest payments. I'm not convinced a ground like say king power stadium makes anywhere near a big a losses than thr Ricoh.

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shy_tall_knight said:

I'm sure there is evidence that will show that when we were previously in the championship our income was significantly lower when compared to our average crowd. We need a sugar daddy to get into the championship.

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It was, last season in the championship we had attendances in the mid table higher than 9-10 other clubs, yet our turnover was in the bottom 4. Thr 3 promoted teams that season had wage bills approx 3x the size of our entire turnover.

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stupot07 said:

It was, last season in the championship we had attendances in the mid table higher than 9-10 other clubs, yet our turnover was in the bottom 4. Thr 3 promoted teams that season had wage bills approx 3x the size of our entire turnover.

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What's your preferred solution Stu?

Do you think the Ricoh can be made to work with the right will or will we have to move elsewhere? If so, where?

Edit: due to the failings of text as a medium, I feel I have to add: all questions asked in genuine interest, not trying to trip you up.

oldskyblue58 said:

There seems to be a perception that others should gift the rights to income to CCFC, now you might have a moral argument on a match day to elements of incomes, but non match day incomes? - why would CCFC have any access to these when they are not on site at those times, share no cost, provide no man power, take no risk and do not attract the income by use of their name.

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Not sure anyone is saying non matchday income, or any income for that matter should just be handed over. More a case that without it we have an issue when compared to other clubs. But where is the line drawn. Think it would be foolish to argue that CCFC aren't a contributing factor to stadium naming rights for example. How about people that book meetings in the JH room?

oldskyblue58 said:

Should Wasps who own the stadium not earn from the arrangement when the risk and cost is bourne by them?

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How much risk is there to Wasps and how much are they putting in? Most things seem to be sold off to a third party to run. To me that just seems to be money coming in with no risk.

italiahorse said:

Competing in the Championship with a 20,000 crowd should keep us there regardless of other incomes.

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We've been here before, when we were in the Championship with crowds of over 20K we had one of the lowest revenues in the division.

chiefdave said:

We've been here before, when we were in the Championship with crowds of over 20K we had one of the lowest revenues in the division.

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But we should be able to stay there.

And yet for years at the Ricoh without these vital income streams CCFC still managed to have a greater turnover in L1 than most clubs - yet we cant compete? Teams have been promoted on lower turnovers than ours. Yes we should acquire all the income we can but the argument put forward by TF doesn't actually stack up. It masks the poor decision making in how that money has been spent. The thing I find frustrating is the lack of meaningful effort, capital, desire to develop other income streams over the years, it comes back to a recurring theme of its every one else's fault

I would think that people book the Ricoh as a venue then get offered choice of rooms and JH was famous for much more than CCFC nationally. CCFC contribute to naming rights if sponsors value it and CCFC commit to being there currently their contribution value for say a 10 year deal is very low.

Compass are contracted to supply, Wasps Group funds the activities through IEC. The income streams have not been sold off to anyone. The trading risk at the Ricoh resides with Wasps

shmmeee said:

Do you think the Ricoh can be made to work with the right will or will we have to move elsewhere?

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The concern I have at the moment is the news Anderson wants to buy a club. Seems likely he had us in his sights and came in to see if it was viable. Remember he went back to square one with the acadedmy and stadium and said all options were open. Identified what was needed and started talks. He then walked. Isn't a good indication to me.

italiahorse said:

But we should stay be able to stay there.

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If we're in the bottom 4 for revenues, as in the past, then every season is either punching above our weight or a relegation battle. That's hardly a bright future is it?

shmmeee said:

What's your preferred solution Stu?

Do you think the Ricoh can be made to work with the right will or will we have to move elsewhere? If so, where?

Edit: due to the failings of text as a medium, I feel I have to add: all questions asked in genuine interest, not trying to trip you up.

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No worries shmmeee, I thought you were asking a genuine questions. They are very hard to answer, especially as our owners have no desire to build a new stadium which when adding realism.

Personally, I just can't see the Ricoh working long term. The landscape has changed and the new owners have their own needs and desires and I just can't see wasps being able to give us what we need for the long term as part of a rental deal. (For the purpose of earlier posts, I don't mean literally give them to us for nothing nor do I think we have a given right to them, I mean in terms of a negotiated deal.)

I think long term (probably under new ownership) we will have to build our own stadium, probably something a bit like King Power stadium or Swanseas stadium somewhere in or just outside Coventry.

As I've said many times, I know we're at the Ricoh for the foreseeable future, so have no choice to suck it up. But I think we have to accept the restrictions that places on us in terms of revenue.

Its almost like the least worst solution rather than the preferred one.



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shy_tall_knight said:

I'm not saying we have a right to these incomes and there has to be capital invested to generate these incomes in all lines of business, I'm glad I started this thread whilst its unlikely we will ever move to a new stadium I can't think of how it can ever work for us at the Ricoh whilst wee are a tenant - off site revenue streams won't work, - as much as I hate the concept of WASPS being here, unfortunately we will have to work with them but I can't see us ever being able to generate the income to compete in the championship.

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Rule of thumb is that those competing, certainly at the top end of the championship are not relying on access to non match day revenue to do it. They're relying on investment. Something that has been made quite clear is not going to happen under the current owners. To that degree saying that a lack of income streams is holding us back is a red herring.

stupot07 said:

Correct. No ones said we have a right to them. We don't, but we do need them especially outside the PL. I'll again point to Walsall who despite having half the size of our attendances, have a turnover of around 40% higher than us.

Interesting point about costs, I can only assume due to acl's dismal financial performance and wasps continuing to struggle to make ends meat, that the Ricoh is an overly expensive site to run, added to that the huge debt and annual interest payments. I'm not convinced a ground like say king power stadium makes anywhere near a big a losses than thr Ricoh.

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Walsall is a bit of a one off though aren't they? Doesn't their prominent location right next to one of the busiest stretches of the M6 give them the opportunity to erect massive advertising structures and rent that space at a premium rate? Not every club at this level has that luxury, if any others at all.

stupot07 said:

No worries shmmeee, I thought you were asking a genuine questions. They are very hard to answer, especially as our owners have no desire to build a new stadium which when adding realism.

Personally, I just can't see the Ricoh working long term. The landscape has changed and the new owners have their own needs and desires and I just can't see wasps being able to give us what we need for the long term as part of a rental deal. (For the purpose of earlier posts, I don't mean literally give them to us for nothing nor do I think we have a given right to them, I mean in terms of a negotiated deal.)

I think long term (probably under new ownership) we will have to build our own stadium, probably something a bit like King Power stadium or Swanseas stadium somewhere in or just outside Coventry.

As I've said many times, I know we're at the Ricoh for the foreseeable future, so have no choice to suck it up. But I think we have to accept the restrictions that places on us in terms of revenue.

Its almost like the least worst solution rather than the preferred one.

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If Coventry City had moved into a council owned stadium with Wasps then it would have been like an ACMilan/internazionale situation of ground share. They would have office and admin and training facilities independent to each other and use the stadiums on match day. Both would be responsible for their own hospitality and event packages etc..... The fact that Wasps own the stadium should not be a barrier to CCFC success nor revenue, its our owners lack of expertise that leads down the cul de sacs we are in.
Lets face it we cant afford a new stadium, we can't keep pointing the finger at Wasps, its time to dust ourselves off and find our own income streams within OUR CITY. Wasps have managed it, copy them.

What a lot of claims about crowd size relative to revenue etc.

Shouldn't any responsible Director be aware of how the club compares to the industry in general and if it compares badly then he should be taking steps to improve the situation.

Or should he just say it is someone else's fault?

chiefdave said:

If we're in the bottom 4 for revenues, as in the past, then every season is either punching above our weight or a relegation battle. That's hardly a bright future is it?

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Don't tell me tell Sisu.
It's better than punching below are weight in D1/D2

skybluetony176 said:

Walsall is a bit of a one off though aren't they? Doesn't their prominent location right next to one of the busiest stretches of the M6 give them the opportunity to erect massive advertising structures and rent that space at a premium rate? Not every club at this level has that luxury, if any others at all.

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Or you could buy a field next to the M6 and do the same?
You don't need to own the stadium to generate these incomes.
You do however have to buy access to these incomes which is where the real problem is.
Some on here believe we have a god given right to these incomes because we are CCFC.

Walsall

I think you have to do a bit more digging than that stupot.

The two comparable years are at the moment 2015.

That year Walsall got to Wembley in the final of the Johnstones Paint Trophy - that's going to boost any clubs commercial income. In 2015-16 they had more success reaching the play off finals, and a couple of cup runs again easy boosts to total income. CCFC struggled

Our matchday income that year 2014-15 was 1.8m Walsall's was 1.6m

Walsall average crowd 4391 CCFC 9331

Their turnover figure for commercial was £4m and ours 3m. That's going to include for Walsall extra prize monies, and extra TV revenue, not to mention sponsorship opportunities because of the success on the pitch

Also the turnover policy for Walsall says turnover includes any transfer fees (they don't show player registrations as an assets). Apparently no fees received but that's not going to be the case in other years that same year 2014-15 we got a profit on players of 2.7m. So on the same basis our turnover exceeded theirs. Yes they do better on commercial side but we do much better on player transfers (most of Walsall's go on a free)

In 2014-15 our income exceeded theirs Walsall 5.6m CCFC 7.5m on the same basis, our success was somewhat less than theirs though

italiahorse said:

Or you could buy a field next to the M6 and do the same?
You don't need to own the stadium to generate these incomes.
You do however have to buy access to these incomes which is where the real problem is.
Some on here believe we have a god given right to these incomes because we are CCFC.

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Who are these people you speak of?

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They know who they are.
I'm just remembering posts but not tracking anybody in particular.
Usually based around the fact that the stadium was built for us.