...increase in migrants across the Channel. (2 Viewers)

Astute · Jan 15, 2019

shmmeee said:
Do me a favour. Go to Google Maps and zoom out so england is on one screen. Then tel me we are running out of green space.

Trust me, my entire job is finding land for development, we are not running out of space. The only issue is permitted development. You could double the size of most villages and no one would notice except a few farmers. Scrap the green belt and reduce the large country estates and you could double population if you wanted to.

We import food, we haven’t grown all our own for decades.

A big problem is our geographically lopsided economy that focuses everything on London, but with sensible infrastructure investment even that’s solvable.

If housing is your issue, pressure government to let councils borrow against their stock for building and slap down the NIMBY brigade on the edge of settlements.

Did I say we are running out of green space?

But yes you are right. We could keep building on farmland. And we already don't grow enough for our needs.

Scrap the green belt? When will it stop? When the whole of England looks like London and all food has to be imported? Carry on building on flood plains? Build housing on mountain sides?

Yes we need a million or more homes just to catch up with where we are now. Most people want to live in England out of the UK. How much space will a million homes take? Then we will need more roads. Then schools, hospitals and similar. Yet the brownfield sites don't get built on as it is more expensive.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 15, 2019

shmmeee said:
Trust me, my entire job is finding land for development

Fancy finding us a site for a football ground...?

dadgad · Jan 15, 2019

The issue of space and dividing a finite resource into ALL our needs is problematic, I do not deny. However, there are solutions which we have not embraced such as empty buildings and composite construction based on the principles pioneered by Walter Segal amongst others.
Neoliberalism, corporatism and a toxic lobbying culture has much to answer for. We are mired in protecting the interests of the few to the detriment of the many for far too long. High time we changed the ‘rules’ - we’re fucked otherwise.

tommydazzle · Jan 15, 2019

shmmeee said:
What makes you say it’s overcrowded? What would you say the UKs maximum population is?

When I was born the population of England was around 40 million, it's now 55 million and rising fast so that's a over a third more just in my lifetime. England is already one of the most densely populated countries in Europe, probably in the top 3 or 4 if you ignore those microstates like Vatican City, Monaco and San Marino. It's a good question as to what's the carrying capacity of our country and I think it's worthy of serious discussion. No politician thinks seriously about this because it is long term and the economic model is built on growth. There are implications for the future in terms of food security, water, energy, pollution, waste management loss of land to the built environment etc. Growth, in a finite space with finite resources, by definition cannot continue indefinitely. I don't know what the ultimate population should be just that we seem to be racing headlong without any thought. The same people calling for an extra three million homes now will be calling for another 3 million in ten years from now because the priority will be that people need to be housed. When does it stop?

On a more personal level, I do notice how crowded the country has become. Journeys that used to take me 30 minutes now take me double that as the roads get more congested. Market towns are being blighted by ugly housing estate developments with no thought to local infrastructure and the urban sprawl continues relentlessly outwards. Developers get rich, the countryside gets trashed. I'm all for nimbyism - I moved to a rural area for the dark skies and open spaces. It's tragic to see the encroachment. Someone who looks at a map and sees areas not yet concreted over is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I leave you with a bit of Larkin (Coventry's own poet):
And that will be England gone,
The shadows, the meadows, the lanes,
The guildhalls, the carved choirs.
There’ll be books; it will linger on
In galleries; but all that remains
For us will be concrete and tyres.

dadgad · Jan 15, 2019

Good post Tommydazzle but the U.K. pop is close to static and only 8.3% foreign born. What is required is a more sustainable and imaginative solution to meet the demands of an ageing pop. with less people able to receive universal rights; education, healthcare, etc.
We cannot blame those that come here when our own govt. sanctions the bombing of their homes in their countries. Clearly this should not continue. We have to recognise that we are a major contributor to the problem. It is hypocritical to pretend otherwise. Larkin would agree, I feel sure.

Ashdown · Jan 15, 2019

Or maybe humanity has to reign itself in. It's fucking everything else up on the planet so it can continue to expand. Humanity grows, pollution grows, global warming increases, multiple species are exterminated, s' ok though !!

shmmeee · Jan 15, 2019

Astute said:
Did I say we are running out of green space?

But yes you are right. We could keep building on farmland. And we already don't grow enough for our needs.

Scrap the green belt? When will it stop? When the whole of England looks like London and all food has to be imported? Carry on building on flood plains? Build housing on mountain sides?

Yes we need a million or more homes just to catch up with where we are now. Most people want to live in England out of the UK. How much space will a million homes take? Then we will need more roads. Then schools, hospitals and similar. Yet the brownfield sites don't get built on as it is more expensive.

Fuck the green belt, just there so a few retired people have a nicer view out their window and somewhere nice to walk the dogs. Build cities that are liveable and healthy, it’s possible. Why should my daughter have to grow up in foleshill without a tree in sight in a shoebox so a couple of retirees don’t have a drop in house prices?

A million homes is an increase of 4% (25m current stock)

UK is currently 6% urban, so an increase of 4% would bring it up to a whopping 6.24%.

Yeah, I think we can manage.

Now if you want to talk about restricting unskilled immigration, I’m with you. But successive governments have disagreed and chosen not to limit it as the request of business. Take it up with them. The same pressures will exist post Brexit, the cabbage pickers will have to come from somewhere.

Sky Blue Pete · Jan 15, 2019

Ashdown said:
Or maybe humanity has to reign itself in. It's fucking everything else up on the planet so it can continue to expand. Humanity grows, pollution grows, global warming increases, multiple species are exterminated, s' ok though !!

Any children ashdown?

Astute · Jan 16, 2019

dadgad said:
Good post Tommydazzle but the U.K. pop is close to static and only 8.3% foreign born. What is required is a more sustainable and imaginative solution to meet the demands of an ageing pop. with less people able to receive universal rights; education, healthcare, etc.
We cannot blame those that come here when our own govt. sanctions the bombing of their homes in their countries. Clearly this should not continue. We have to recognise that we are a major contributor to the problem. It is hypocritical to pretend otherwise. Larkin would agree, I feel sure.

UK population close to static? When did that suddenly happen? It had gone down to only going up by just over 300k a year last time I looked. This is still needing to add 100k homes a year.

And who is blaming anyone in particular? You say it how it is and those not born here/partner not born here/those looking for an argument jump.on your back.

It isn't sustainable. But you will always get the comments like there is plenty of land still to build on.

Astute · Jan 16, 2019

shmmeee said:
Fuck the green belt, just there so a few retired people have a nicer view out their window and somewhere nice to walk the dogs. Build cities that are liveable and healthy, it’s possible. Why should my daughter have to grow up in foleshill without a tree in sight in a shoebox so a couple of retirees don’t have a drop in house prices?

A million homes is an increase of 4% (25m current stock)

UK is currently 6% urban, so an increase of 4% would bring it up to a whopping 6.24%.

Yeah, I think we can manage.

Now if you want to talk about restricting unskilled immigration, I’m with you. But successive governments have disagreed and chosen not to limit it as the request of business. Take it up with them. The same pressures will exist post Brexit, the cabbage pickers will have to come from somewhere.

Here you go again. The UK this. The UK that.

People want to live in England. It is 12.6% urban. Yeah fuck the green belt. Keep building until there is no grass.

What about the brownfield sites? Fuck it. We have farmland we can build on. Just keep it coming. It would keep people like.yourself.happy.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Jan 16, 2019

tommydazzle said:
When I was born the population of England was around 40 million, it's now 55 million and rising fast so that's a over a third more just in my lifetime. England is already one of the most densely populated countries in Europe, probably in the top 3 or 4 if you ignore those microstates like Vatican City, Monaco and San Marino. It's a good question as to what's the carrying capacity of our country and I think it's worthy of serious discussion. No politician thinks seriously about this because it is long term and the economic model is built on growth. There are implications for the future in terms of food security, water, energy, pollution, waste management loss of land to the built environment etc. Growth, in a finite space with finite resources, by definition cannot continue indefinitely. I don't know what the ultimate population should be just that we seem to be racing headlong without any thought. The same people calling for an extra three million homes now will be calling for another 3 million in ten years from now because the priority will be that people need to be housed. When does it stop?

On a more personal level, I do notice how crowded the country has become. Journeys that used to take me 30 minutes now take me double that as the roads get more congested. Market towns are being blighted by ugly housing estate developments with no thought to local infrastructure and the urban sprawl continues relentlessly outwards. Developers get rich, the countryside gets trashed. I'm all for nimbyism - I moved to a rural area for the dark skies and open spaces. It's tragic to see the encroachment. Someone who looks at a map and sees areas not yet concreted over is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I leave you with a bit of Larkin (Coventry's own poet):
And that will be England gone,
The shadows, the meadows, the lanes,
The guildhalls, the carved choirs.
There’ll be books; it will linger on
In galleries; but all that remains
For us will be concrete and tyres.

One of the best posts on here for many a long time. This idea that we are around 6% urban and that therefore we have plenty of room for expansion is nonsense. There's no correlation between that percentage and the impact on infrastructure , which is huge and irreversible.

Captain Dart · Jan 16, 2019

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
One of the best posts on here for many a long time. This idea that we are around 6% urban and that therefore we have plenty of room for expansion is nonsense. There's no correlation between that percentage and the impact on infrastructure , which is huge and irreversible.

Also the % figure is no good measure, there are huge areas that can't be farmed or developed and many areas that are over developed already.

Infill has been going on for many years, look at this ariel photo for example, where is it? Well it is Cheylesmore in 1939.

It is absolutely no solution to import more & more people and build more & more houses, that is just simplistic nonsense.

Sky Blue Pete · Jan 16, 2019

Captain Dart said:
Also the % figure is no good measure, there are huge areas that can't be farmed or developed and many areas that are over developed already.

Infill has been going on for many years, look at this ariel photo for example, where is it? Well it is Cheylesmore in 1939.
View attachment 11333

It is absolutely no solution to import more & more people and build more & more houses, that is just simplistic nonsense.

Don’t think anyone is saying we should import more and more immigrants and build more and more houses

dadgad · Jan 16, 2019

Captain Dart said:
Also the % figure is no good measure, there are huge areas that can't be farmed or developed and many areas that are over developed already.

Infill has been going on for many years, look at this ariel photo for example, where is it? Well it is Cheylesmore in 1939.
View attachment 11333

It is absolutely no solution to import more & more people and build more & more houses, that is just simplistic nonsense.

If we stopped the bombing there’d be more people elsewhere happy to stay where they are. This is not difficult to understand and cannot be brushed off as ‘simplistic nonsense’. Furthermore technology will not stop meaning we will have better ways to house, feed and care for the population we already have. This would happen sooner if the building industry embraced modern methods instead of remaining wedded to the wet processes, cement and plaster.

Just another systemic fault inherent within a broken political system that supports vested interests.

...increase in migrants across the Channel. (2 Viewers)

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