Is CCFC a worthy investment? (1 Viewer)

Paxman II · Nov 27, 2016

On a serious note. The league has just a handful of clubs capable of double digit crowd figures. Coventry being one. Make no mistake we are a big fish in this lower league. Yesterday we got near 9k against poor opposition and terrible back to back defeats and this whole apathy thing.
IF there were any interested parties out there they know this club can be revived with some sensible investment of just several million.
Conversely Scunthorpe got around 4k for their home game yesterday. Had we been in their position it stands to reason we would have had at least 20k +
There is still a clear route to negotiating with WASP for any new owners to a suitable compromise. Why? because they are not the current troublemakers.
So where are those ghost investors everyone talks about? Why wouldn't Otium sell up for a figure that settles their investors concerns? I'd assume this figure would fall somewhere around 20m.
So what is stopping potential takeovers?

wingy · Nov 27, 2016

£1 Paxman.

johnwillomagic · Nov 27, 2016

Erm honestly,,,,,,no!

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 27, 2016

wingy said:
£1 Paxman.

Overpriced.

stupot07 · Nov 27, 2016

Paxman II said:
Conversely Scunthorpe got around 4k for their home game yesterday. Had we been in their position it stands to reason we would have had at least 20k +

What like the 20k+ crowds we were getting this time last season when we were top of thr league?

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stupot07 · Nov 27, 2016

And £20m....funniest thing I've read in ages

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Deleted member 5849 · Nov 27, 2016

stupot07 said:
And £20m....funniest thing I've read in ages

tbf, that'd be what's stopping potential takeovers!

stupot07 · Nov 27, 2016

Deleted member 5849 said:
tbf, that'd be what's stopping potential takeovers!

Probably right, I'm also not sure why people think wasps will give us a fantastic deal under new owners. Any new owner is still going to be hamstrung by lack of access to revenues, and will likely need to overpay to get access to them.

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torchomatic · Nov 27, 2016

No ground (nice one AL), one or two "prized assets" in the team, no academy site, unsupportive council. What is there to attract a new owner?

SkyBlueZack · Nov 27, 2016

Paxman II said:
On a serious note. The league has just a handful of clubs capable of double digit crowd figures. Coventry being one. Make no mistake we are a big fish in this lower league. Yesterday we got near 9k against poor opposition and terrible back to back defeats and this whole apathy thing.
IF there were any interested parties out there they know this club can be revived with some sensible investment of just several million.
Conversely Scunthorpe got around 4k for their home game yesterday. Had we been in their position it stands to reason we would have had at least 20k +
There is still a clear route to negotiating with WASP for any new owners to a suitable compromise. Why? because they are not the current troublemakers.
So where are those ghost investors everyone talks about? Why wouldn't Otium sell up for a figure that settles their investors concerns? I'd assume this figure would fall somewhere around 20m.
So what is stopping potential takeovers?

I was expecting more than 9k, what with the people of Coventry loving a franchised team.

torchomatic · Nov 27, 2016

SkyBlueZack said:
I was expecting more than 9k, what with the people of Coventry loving a franchised team.

Quite amusing when they were singing we were getting beaten by "The Franchise".

SkyBlueZack · Nov 27, 2016

Paxman II said:
On a serious note. The league has just a handful of clubs capable of double digit crowd figures. Coventry being one. Make no mistake we are a big fish in this lower league. Yesterday we got near 9k against poor opposition and terrible back to back defeats and this whole apathy thing.
IF there were any interested parties out there they know this club can be revived with some sensible investment of just several million.
Conversely Scunthorpe got around 4k for their home game yesterday. Had we been in their position it stands to reason we would have had at least 20k +
There is still a clear route to negotiating with WASP for any new owners to a suitable compromise. Why? because they are not the current troublemakers.
So where are those ghost investors everyone talks about? Why wouldn't Otium sell up for a figure that settles their investors concerns? I'd assume this figure would fall somewhere around 20m.
So what is stopping potential takeovers?

What was the attendance for the top of the table clash with Gillingham? The potential fan base argument doesn't stack up. People are unrealistic about it. The fans aren't there like people think they are.

Sensible investment of just several million? This guarantees nothing. It is not the answer to the clubs problems. Splashing money will do nothing but keep fans quiet until the money runs out. The club needs a structure, a plan, foundations. No reliance on investment or sugar daddies. No more getting into a mess it can't get out of. Have our fans not learnt anything?!

Not the current troublemakers? Your reasoning for that is? They called Ricoh negotiations off, they chose the academy site, they moved to Coventry from Wycombe. None of this is their fault though. They are an innocent party.

Ghost investors? Who talks about them? The ones who keep shouting SISU out the loudest? I wouldn't take much notice of them.

Is there any point trying to second guess what Otium will or won't do.

Finally, SISU are stopping takeovers as they won't sell despite people asking them to.

Paxman II · Nov 27, 2016

The point is you are assessing the situation based on current ownership there. A new owner would bring a breath of fresh air with the opportunity for all parties to start afresh. The fan base is there, no doubt about that. There is opportunity to negotiate with WASP on a sustainable Ricoh deal. Why wouldn't they want to increase their revenue streams?
Initial investment in the squad to produce a promotion challenging side and stabilise the clubs place at the Ricoh would see a rise in crowds and revenues. Optimism not pessimism would return.
Our current owners are hamstrung and unwilling to do this.
The question is how much would new owners pay and how much funding in the team to get it promoted? What would SISU's investors accept?
If you wait for liquidation you could be waiting a long time....

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Nov 27, 2016

I think if we were on a sustained period where we regularly flirted with the play offs (a la Bradford) and were under the ownership of a business which communicated with its supporters I think we could attract a regular following of 15,000 in this league, with 20,000 for the Sheffield Uniteds etc . I'm not sure we could 20,000 regularly, unless we had a huge number of season ticket holders, which is unlikely.

oldskyblue58 · Nov 28, 2016

The club is worth £1, if that, if you are buying Otium as it stands.

Why are some so keen to reward failure and give SISU all their money back? SISU might make demands but if they want out then it becomes a buyers market

What do you get for £20m ? If you bought out just the assets & brand I doubt it is worth that. You surely would not purchase Otium as it stands with its loans and preference shares. Nor would you want to be paying any large lump sum. Assets: Ryton, some equipment, the playing squad not on 1 year contracts, rights to income on previous player sales, the academy reputation (precarious at the moment despite the audit being positive), the badge, brand and trade mark. There isn't much else. On the other side is an immediate cash flow requirement and taking on the football debt that will depending on player purchase intentions run in to several million. The greatest asset value is probably Ryton with planning permission which means finding somewhere else to train - so to a new owner is the value as it is or as houses? The squad currently threadbare, short term, too young and under achieving doesn't look to be lots of premium there. The Academy good reputation but about to be homeless so potential costs to be met by a new owner. The badge/brand etc is at present I would think as tainted and any premium would be built by new owners not sold by the present ones

I also doubt that the current investors are actually owed anything like that. ARVO were owed around £8m capital in the last accounts. I suspect that the original investment has been written down and moved for very little. So being generous the highest figure would imo be £10m to give SISU/ARVO all their current capital back. But why would you do that if as is likely you are not sky blue blood fanatic with more money than sense.

Yes there is a brand there to develop but it would be the new owners developing it, so why effectively pay for that twice?

So SISU have a choice take something that offers them potential value now or hold on to it and hope that potential doesn't continue to go down the plug hole

As for being at the Ricoh, it could be the solution short to medium term, It may end up being the only solution who knows? but then you have to look at how valuable we are to Wasps when we now account for less than 3% of their total turnover (rent, match fees and Gross F&B). Yes I know under new owners CCFC might be more valuable but they are not going to give CCFC more without it costing more.

I think that £20m is way too much - but that's just my opinion - I doubt it is worth more than 5m or 6m and even then not all up front. And only if you take on the assets and football debts not Otium as it stands

Paxman II · Nov 28, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
The club is worth £1, if that, if you are buying Otium as it stands.

Why are some so keen to reward failure and give SISU all their money back? SISU might make demands but if they want out then it becomes a buyers market

What do you get for £20m ? If you bought out just the assets & brand I doubt it is worth that. You surely would not purchase Otium as it stands with its loans and preference shares. Nor would you want to be paying any large lump sum. Assets: Ryton, some equipment, the playing squad not on 1 year contracts, rights to income on previous player sales, the academy reputation (precarious at the moment despite the audit being positive), the badge, brand and trade mark. There isn't much else. On the other side is an immediate cash flow requirement and taking on the football debt that will depending on player purchase intentions run in to several million. The greatest asset value is probably Ryton with planning permission which means finding somewhere else to train - so to a new owner is the value as it is or as houses? The squad currently threadbare, short term, too young and under achieving doesn't look to be lots of premium there. The Academy good reputation but about to be homeless so potential costs to be met by a new owner. The badge/brand etc is at present I would think as tainted and any premium would be built by new owners not sold by the present ones

I also doubt that the current investors are actually owed anything like that. ARVO were owed around £8m capital in the last accounts. I suspect that the original investment has been written down and moved for very little. So being generous the highest figure would imo be £10m to give SISU/ARVO all their current capital back. But why would you do that if as is likely you are not sky blue blood fanatic with more money than sense.

Yes there is a brand there to develop but it would be the new owners developing it, so why effectively pay for that twice?

So SISU have a choice take something that offers them potential value now or hold on to it and hope that potential doesn't continue to go down the plug hole

As for being at the Ricoh, it could be the solution short to medium term, It may end up being the only solution who knows? but then you have to look at how valuable we are to Wasps when we now account for less than 3% of their total turnover (rent, match fees and Gross F&B). Yes I know under new owners CCFC might be more valuable but they are not going to give CCFC more without it costing more.

I think that £20m is way too much - but that's just my opinion - I doubt it is worth more than 5m or 6m and even then not all up front. And only if you take on the assets and football debts not Otium as it stands

Agree with this. There is of course the so called 'good will' that has to have a value and i assume that's what you mean by the 'badge'. In the world of football there are many who would speculate a few million to revive a club of our stature surely? I certainly hope so and any small success such as promotion would see our income rise considerably. The question is '58, how do we convince the current owners to let go now for perhaps a £10m bounty with a further £5m or so to invest immediately and is there a few in the wings ready to meet that option?
If there is and the owners were agreeable then it would be a pretty low figure to get hold of such an attractive football club.

stupot07 · Nov 28, 2016

Paxman II said:
Agree with this. There is of course the so called 'good will' that has to have a value and i assume that's what you mean by the 'badge'. In the world of football there are many who would speculate a few million to revive a club of our stature surely? I certainly hope so and any small success such as promotion would see our income rise considerably. The question is '58, how do we convince the current owners to let go now for perhaps a £10m bounty with a further £5m or so to invest immediately and is there a few in the wings ready to meet that option?
If there is and the owners were agreeable then it would be a pretty low figure to get hold of such an attractive football club.

No one in their right mind would give sisu £10m for our club.

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skybluetony176 · Nov 28, 2016

Bar the top half dozen clubs in the country is any football club a worthy investment?

Football is a huge gamble. For every Bournemouth I wouldn't even like to hazard a guess of how many investments in football there are that have gone completely tits up.

skybluetony176 · Nov 28, 2016

stupot07 said:
No one in their right mind would give sisu £10m for our club.

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No one in their right mind would ask for £10M for CCFC. What did SISU last value it at?

stupot07 · Nov 28, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
No one in their right mind would ask for £10M for CCFC. What did SISU last value it at?

I have no idea, do you?

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Moff · Nov 28, 2016

In light of everything discussed, and the feelings of fans discussed on the other threads, I just cant see what would keep them here beyond the end of the season, unless its for the sale of Ryton.

The club are a failing basket case, so the only thing that keeps my enthusiasm is the expectancy that at some point they will be gone, as we are on an unstoppable downward spiral under their inept and crap stewardship, and the only thing that will stop this is them sodding off. I await this day.

Como · Nov 28, 2016

Makes me wonder if the Club is actually worth anything? If you did a straight assets versus liabilities I can not see where any value is.

You have the name and the Golden Share, but that must be subjective. Some of us see value, but would an investor?

I do not understand what SISU look to get out of this, wonder if they do?

harvey098 · Nov 28, 2016

Paxman II said:
On a serious note. The league has just a handful of clubs capable of double digit crowd figures. r

In fairness, every club in the country is capable of double digit crowd figures

robbiekeane · Nov 28, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
The club is worth £1, if that, if you are buying Otium as it stands.

Why are some so keen to reward failure and give SISU all their money back? SISU might make demands but if they want out then it becomes a buyers market

What do you get for £20m ? If you bought out just the assets & brand I doubt it is worth that. You surely would not purchase Otium as it stands with its loans and preference shares. Nor would you want to be paying any large lump sum. Assets: Ryton, some equipment, the playing squad not on 1 year contracts, rights to income on previous player sales, the academy reputation (precarious at the moment despite the audit being positive), the badge, brand and trade mark. There isn't much else. On the other side is an immediate cash flow requirement and taking on the football debt that will depending on player purchase intentions run in to several million. The greatest asset value is probably Ryton with planning permission which means finding somewhere else to train - so to a new owner is the value as it is or as houses? The squad currently threadbare, short term, too young and under achieving doesn't look to be lots of premium there. The Academy good reputation but about to be homeless so potential costs to be met by a new owner. The badge/brand etc is at present I would think as tainted and any premium would be built by new owners not sold by the present ones

I also doubt that the current investors are actually owed anything like that. ARVO were owed around £8m capital in the last accounts. I suspect that the original investment has been written down and moved for very little. So being generous the highest figure would imo be £10m to give SISU/ARVO all their current capital back. But why would you do that if as is likely you are not sky blue blood fanatic with more money than sense.

Yes there is a brand there to develop but it would be the new owners developing it, so why effectively pay for that twice?

So SISU have a choice take something that offers them potential value now or hold on to it and hope that potential doesn't continue to go down the plug hole

As for being at the Ricoh, it could be the solution short to medium term, It may end up being the only solution who knows? but then you have to look at how valuable we are to Wasps when we now account for less than 3% of their total turnover (rent, match fees and Gross F&B). Yes I know under new owners CCFC might be more valuable but they are not going to give CCFC more without it costing more.

I think that £20m is way too much - but that's just my opinion - I doubt it is worth more than 5m or 6m and even then not all up front. And only if you take on the assets and football debts not Otium as it stands

I thought the debt figure was more like £30m with all of the loans they gave the club to fund the losses? has this since been written off or did I get that wrong?

Paxman II · Nov 28, 2016

harvey098 said:
In fairness, every club in the country is capable of double digit crowd figures

very funny

skybluetony176 · Nov 28, 2016

stupot07 said:
I have no idea, do you?

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Someone on here (think it was LAST) said that Joy had told fans when meeting them that the club was worth £60M, or they wanted £60M. Something like that. Pretty sure £60M was the figure regardless of how it was worded.

christonabike · Nov 28, 2016

No ground no future no income from food etc (sorry 15%) and lets not beat about the bush 90% of our players are liabilities in a business sense. Wages contracts and a once proud name of a football club. Until these fookers decide to sell we are wasting our breath as you are buying fook all. The only thing they havent tried to sell is the fans and I for one was sold down the river again this season with promise of kicking on from last season.:banghead:
If these cunts are still here come July Im out. All this crap about lets fill the stadium to show investors in truly infantile as we have shown we can get a decent crowd and just fills Sisus pockets to be in charge a while longer. They are money men and its when they are losing more money hand over fist they will have to cut and run.

Kingokings204 · Nov 28, 2016

christonabike said:
No ground no future no income from food etc (sorry 15%) and lets not beat about the bush 90% of our players are liabilities in a business sense. Wages contracts and a once proud name of a football club. Until these fookers decide to sell we are wasting our breath as you are buying fook all. The only thing they havent tried to sell is the fans and I for one was sold down the river again this season with promise of kicking on from last season.:banghead:
If these cunts are still here come July Im out. All this crap about lets fill the stadium to show investors in truly infantile as we have shown we can get a decent crowd and just fills Sisus pockets to be in charge a while longer. They are money men and its when they are losing more money hand over fist they will have to cut and run.

That's how I see it more and more these days I use to think pack the stadium out but it will go straight into sisus pocket. Cutting the cancer at the source is money and only money. You reduce their money they sod off just my opinion. Without paying fans there isn't a business. Try this for a season (not practical i know) and see them squirm. I have no proof just my opinion.

As it stands we are currently drip feeding the club slower and slower and it's just a long painful death we are currently experiencing.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 28, 2016

christonabike said:
its when they are losing more money hand over fist they will have to cut and run.

Like they have the last seven years?

dongonzalos · Nov 28, 2016

If I was a multimillionaire.
I would have private talks with Wasps, compass and the council.
Make sure I have an option on the Butts or can do a deal with the Ricoh. With them knowing unless I can strike a satisfactory deal I won't even bid.
Once I have that agreement in place.
I would then make two offers to SISU.
£1 and I inherite the debt, capped at 40 million. The team, golden share, Ryton and the academy.
Or £10 million for the above and they take the debt.
At the point of signing with SISU I simultaneously sign with the council/butts or Wasps

Paxman II · Nov 29, 2016

dongonzalos said:
If I was a multimillionaire.
I would have private talks with Wasps, compass and the council.
Make sure I have an option on the Butts or can do a deal with the Ricoh. With them knowing unless I can strike a satisfactory deal I won't even bid.
Once I have that agreement in place.
I would then make two offers to SISU.
£1 and I inherite the debt, capped at 40 million. The team, golden share, Ryton and the academy.
Or £10 million for the above and they take the debt.
At the point of signing with SISU I simultaneously sign with the council/butts or Wasps

In theory but money has been moved around considerably or written down/off and as olderSkyblue 58 has indicated even £10m would be a stretch. But your art of the deal is the right approach and all things are possible. The 64 million dollar question is what will SISU settle for?

Kingokings204 · Nov 29, 2016

Paxman II said:
In theory but money has been moved around considerably or written down/off and as olderSkyblue 58 has indicated even £10m would be a stretch. But your art of the deal is the right approach and all things are possible. The 64 million dollar question is what will SISU settle for?

And that Is the key to this whole debate. What do sisu want? No one knows and I'm not sure even do they.

That smurfwaite guy seems to think 5m cold hard cash and I would say that's about right. Whether it's worth that is another question.

covcity4life · Nov 29, 2016

stupot07 said:
What like the 20k+ crowds we were getting this time last season when we were top of thr league?

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tbf scunthorpe have been 1st for ages

we just flirted with 1st didnt we? and we did get around 17k or something. haf we stayed there it would have gone up and up

Captain Dart · Nov 29, 2016

robbiekeane said:
I thought the debt figure was more like £30m with all of the loans they gave the club to fund the losses? has this since been written off or did I get that wrong?

I think SISU/ARVO put in approx. £10M so far, but the original SISU fund made a loss and pulled out round about the time Fisher arrived and Orange Ken departed.
In other words we are on our 2nd set of SISU investors, at least that is how I understand it. Of course SISU have kept the previous investment losses on the books.

no_loyalty · Nov 29, 2016

Can we get South African retail billionaire Christo Wiese to buy us please?

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