Its like 2008 never happened.... (15 Viewers)

Nick · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
...or have to spend everything on nursing care

I worry too, for the 'I struggled to get where I am, so everybody should have to struggle too' mentality. I don't think you mean it to come out that way, btw so take this in a more general sense... but in my view that's part of the problem - an expectation that those dealt with worse cards at the beginning of their lives should have to work harder than those lucky enough to be born into financial security etc.

And when it comes to credit, that doesn't help when people (again, not you) spend their cash just to show they have cash to spend. That, then, increases an illusion that you have to spend to keep up. Now I'm not justifying the spending to keep up, but I am empathising.

Now, personally I'm either lucky or unlucky enough that material considerations come lower in what I want, to a comfortable working environment with decent managers (have done the opposite for more money and it most certainly is not worth it!), and a decent home life. It's amazing how much pleasure I can get from English Heritage membership, and that's cheaper than a holiday in the Cayman Islands.

But... it's a shame that instead of offering credit so easily for cars etc, we can't get towards a culture that recognises funding each others' imrovement helps us all, rather than it being a threat to our particular lifestyles. And whilst mortgages have become a little more flexible, it's maybe time to recognise that there has to be a certain amount of risk offering better mortgages more easily to those who are cursed with temporary contracts, and moving from job to job annually.

It's not saying that everybody should struggle though, just that maybe they should be a bit more realistic and instead of saying they don't like managers or their job or that they don't earn enough money to get what they want to better themselves / their job. Sometimes things are a struggle to start with and then they pay off further down the line. One of my mates decided he wanted a change from being a labourer and put himself on a night course to be an Electrician. A few years later he is earning probably triple per day that he was a few years ago and the struggle of having to study as well as work full time and kids etc is benefiting.

Not everybody is born into financial security and won't live as nice lives as the Beckham kids or Abramovich but if people spend all their time moaning about how it isn't fair how far will that get them? It's not going to change anything that my parents weren't millionaires and I have to graft and Brooklyn Beckham can just stroll about damaging supermodels without ever having money worries.

It's just life.

(end trainspotting type post).

clint van damme · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
Then move to where housing is cheaper. I live in a great part of the country. Jobs are plentiful. And you can still buy a 3 bed house for less than 100k. Walk down the road and you have a 13.5 mile beach. Look to the right and you can see the lake district. 150k gets you a large 3 bed semi with gardens.

My wife has just found her dream house. 7 bedrooms. She told me only 550k :woot: I told her that I wasn't going to work until I am 67. My plan is to buy a new luxury motorhome, give the house to the kids and then go. Drive to Dover, get to Calais then turn right. France, Spain, Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Croatia and so on. And when I am in this country just follow our football club everywhere. It has been my aim for many years. It is what I have worked and saved for. And not having a luxury holiday every year is what is paying for it. Or I could have had new cars all the time and the latest gadgets with great holidays but a shit retirement. Or I could have stayed in Coventry and most probably struggled all my life.

that's your circumstances but not every ones the same.
They may need to stay where they are because they get help with child care from family which they couldn't afford if they moved away from home, there's loads of reasons people cant move. Everyone's circumstances are different.
The path I have gone down is very similar to yours though I have stayed local but that doesn't mean it works for everyone.
I shortened the term of my mortgage, and stuck where I am rather than upgrading house every time I got a bit of equity and have paid for my house so hopefully I'll be at least semi retired before 60 but I can't see my kids being able to give themselves that option unless they earn a shitload of money.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
Them house prices include London and down south. 234k here gets you a cracking house. 100k gets you a decent 3 bed house. If you go a 10 minute drive from me and onto the mainland you can get change from 50k. It is possible to get a 6 bed house for about 120k. Or you can drive up the road and pay 350k for smaller.

Average prices mean nothing. But where you choose to live does.

But again, why should you have to uproot yourself from your heritage, your culture... your roots, because prices artificially widen?

Is that necessarily fair?

Nick said:
It's not saying that everybody should struggle though, just that maybe they should be a bit more realistic and instead of saying they don't like managers or their job or that they don't earn enough money to get what they want to better themselves / their job. Sometimes things are a struggle to start with and then they pay off further down the line. One of my mates decided he wanted a change from being a labourer and put himself on a night course to be an Electrician. A few years later he is earning probably triple per day that he was a few years ago and the struggle of having to study as well as work full time and kids etc is benefiting.

Not everybody is born into financial security and won't live as nice lives as the Beckham kids or Abramovich but if people spend all their time moaning about how it isn't fair how far will that get them? It's not going to change anything that my parents weren't millionaires and I have to graft and Brooklyn Beckham can just stroll about damaging supermodels without ever having money worries.

It's just life.

(end trainspotting type post).

You're taking it to the extremes again.

Some careers require unpaid internships, for example. Can't really do them if you have to put a roof over your head, it's a lot easier if you can live under your parents' roof. You don't need to be Brooklyn Beckham to have that benefit, but it's the benefit some don't have.

Some can, even after years of study, result in a salary of £6,000pa... but you have to work to earn the money to put a roof over your head.

Would be far better if society recognised entry into certain professions should be rewarded with, well... a living wage.

Would then remove a certain amount of credit, too. Career development loans, for one...

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
...or have to spend everything on nursing care

I worry too, for the 'I struggled to get where I am, so everybody should have to struggle too' mentality. I don't think you mean it to come out that way, btw so take this in a more general sense... but in my view that's part of the problem - an expectation that those dealt with worse cards at the beginning of their lives should have to work harder than those lucky enough to be born into financial security etc.

I have not said that you should have to go through what I did. What I have said is that the more sacrifices you are willing to make the better your chances are. Just because you are born poor it doesn't mean you always will be. But if you go along with a defeatest attitude you will be.

And on your point of mortgages for everyone. That is what caused the last crash 10 years ago.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Aug 9, 2017

Liquid Gold said:
Yes some people are stupid with credit and only have themselves to blame but the simple fact is that it's becoming more expensive to own a home.

Year - Average Wage - Average House Price - House Price as Multiple of Wage
1980 - £6,000 - £22,677 - 3.8
1990 - £13,364 - £59,587 - 4.5
2017 - £27,000 - £234,794 - 8.7

This doesn't factor in that the cost of living is much higher due to things like gas, electricity, transport having above inflation rises in cost.

This doesn't factor in the cost of finance as highlighted earlier in the thread........the interest alone that I was paying on my first mortgage would easily dwarf the capital + interest repayments on a mortgage for a substantially larger sum these days......

House ticket prices are certainly higher (but not as bad as claimed if you exclude the london basketcase).....but the cost of buying those houses is way way cheaper now than ever before.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
I have not said that you should have to go through what I did. What I have said is that the more sacrifices you are willing to make the better your chances are. Just because you are born poor it doesn't mean you always will be. But if you go along with a defeatest attitude you will be.

And on your point of mortgages for everyone. That is what caused the last crash 10 years ago.

I agree with the first point, I'm not suggesting mortgages for everyone.

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

clint van damme said:
that's your circumstances but not every ones the same.
They may need to stay where they are because they get help with child care from family which they couldn't afford if they moved away from home, there's loads of reasons people cant move. Everyone's circumstances are different.

OK.

We can't find childcare. Our nearest family is nearly 3 hours away. We both work. I can work a 12 hour night shift, go to bed for just over an hour, get back up and get kids ready for achool as wife has gone to work, take kids to school, get a few more hours sleep....not always easy during the day. Then get kids from school. Wige gets back from work then I go and do another 12 hour night shift. Then I go to bed for an hour or so and get up when wife goes to work..........

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
This doesn't factor in the cost of finance as highlighted earlier in the thread........the interest alone that I was paying on my first mortgage would easily dwarf the capital + interest repayments on a mortgage for a substantially larger sum these days......

House ticket prices are certainly higher (but not as bad claimed if you exclude the london basketcase).....but the cost of buying those houses is way cheaper now than ever before.

Don't disagree about the cost (although that's storing an issue when interest rates go up. Could be interesting, eh), although countering your OP, it's harder to get a mortgage due to working / contract conditions, and the loan to value.

clint van damme · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
I have not said that you should have to go through what I did. What I have said is that the more sacrifices you are willing to make the better your chances are. Just because you are born poor it doesn't mean you always will be. But if you go along with a defeatest attitude you will be.

And on your point of mortgages for everyone. That is what caused the last crash 10 years ago.

the crash was caused because the banks moved away from a system that had worked for years and started giving out money people couldn't afford to pay back.

In those days there was also plenty of affordable housing, I thing we would all benefit if there was a return to a similar housing market now.

clint van damme · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
OK.

We can't find childcare. Our nearest family is nearly 3 hours away. We both work. I can work a 12 hour night shift, go to bed for just over an hour, get back up and get kids ready for achool as wife has gone to work, take kids to school, get a few more hours sleep....not always easy during the day. Then get kids from school. Wige gets back from work then I go and do another 12 hour night shift. Then I go to bed for an hour or so and get up when wife goes to work..........

but you couldn't do that if you both worked days - as i said, everyone's circumstances are different.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

clint van damme said:
but you couldn't do that if you both worked days - as i said, everyone's circumstances are different.

Yup, psychologies too.

Some just wouldn't be able to handle moving away from their roots.

Now if your roots are Buckingham Palace, or your roots are somewhere nice and you're out of work, then you might have to. Nobody's saying everyone is entitled to everything.

But the balance has got too skewed the other way IMNSHO, and it's very damaging to community too, as people shuffle around without purpose.

Nick · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
You're taking it to the extremes again.

Some careers require unpaid internships, for example. Can't really do them if you have to put a roof over your head, it's a lot easier if you can live under your parents' roof. You don't need to be Brooklyn Beckham to have that benefit, but it's the benefit some don't have.

Some can, even after years of study, result in a salary of £6,000pa... but you have to work to earn the money to put a roof over your head.

Would be far better if society recognised entry into certain professions should be rewarded with, well... a living wage.

Would then remove a certain amount of credit, too. Career development loans, for one...

Surely that still comes down to priorities, choices and sacrifices though?

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Nick said:
Surely that still comes down to priorities, choices and sacrifices though?

Why should some careers be out of reach of some, just because they didn't have the right Mum and Dad?

jimmyhillsfanclub · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Why should some careers be out of reach of some, just because they didn't have the right Mum and Dad?

I refer the gentleman to the charming Jarvis Cocker ditty on page 1

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
But again, why should you have to uproot yourself from your heritage, your culture... your roots, because prices artificially widen?

Is that necessarily fair?

You're taking it to the extremes again.

Extremes?

It is what I have done myself. Of course I would have preferred to have stayed in Coventry. Got a job. Bought a house. Lived happily ever after. But life isn't a fairy tale.

Life is a long hard slog. And then you die.

If you are handed a bad deal you can either accept it or try to something about it. Moaning about it gets you nowhere. I have been given nothing in life. I had nothing until my late 20's. Yes it would be good if we could all work 9 til 5 and have everything. Only a fool would disagree. But that isn't what life is. The vast majority don't have it all handed to them on a plate. I certainly didn't.

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Don't disagree about the cost (although that's storing an issue when interest rates go up. Could be interesting, eh), although countering your OP, it's harder to get a mortgage due to working / contract conditions, and the loan to value.

clint van damme said:
the crash was caused because the banks moved away from a system that had worked for years and started giving out money people couldn't afford to pay back.

And here is your problem.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
And here is your problem.

But people can afford to pay back on temporary contracts.

The issue is the existence of temporary contracts, and poor employment rights.

So, improve salaries and working conditions, reduce house prices, offer more flexible mortgages... or a combination of all three.

Nick · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Why should some careers be out of reach of some, just because they didn't have the right Mum and Dad?

Nothing is ever going to change that though is it? I could sit and moan that I didn't go to a certain university and my parents didn't know people who could hook me up with a job or I could work hard and do the best I could, I could then try and give my family the best possible chance in life.

The mate I mentioned who re-trained got kicked out of home when he was 16. Yes, he couldn't have been an unpaid intern and chosen a career along those lines but he made the best out of what he could and took it upon himself to sort it out rather than just moaning about it.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
Extremes?

Do you have Nick on ignore too?

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Why should some careers be out of reach of some, just because they didn't have the right Mum and Dad?

I had my mother. Life was a struggle. I could have been a dustman where some try to say I am overpaid for what I do....

My career was out of touch for me. So I made severe sacrifices. Over 10 years of hard graft, no money, no time to myself or with my family, moving all over the country......

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Nick said:
Nothing is ever going to change that though is it?

Why?

Isn't that a defeatist attitude to say that?

Some careers have become harder to access than they were, so some things *have* changed... for the worse!

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
I had my mother. Life was a struggle. I could have been a dustman where some try to say I am overpaid for what I do....

My career was out of touch for me. So I made severe sacrifices. Over 10 years of hard graft, no money, no time to myself or with my family, moving all over the country......

Great, well done.

But not everyone is you.

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

Nick said:
The mate I mentioned who re-trained got kicked out of home when he was 16. Yes, he couldn't have been an unpaid intern and chosen a career along those lines but he made the best out of what he could and took it upon himself to sort it out rather than just moaning about it.

I left just after my 16th birthday. When I was 17 I was living on the south coast alone. Eventually I was working all day then working the doors at night. Didn't have the money to visit my mummy. I grew up very quickly.

Nick · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Why?

Isn't that a defeatist attitude to say that?

Some careers have become harder to access than they were, so some things *have* changed... for the worse!

It's not defeatist it's realistic. Sometimes people have to make the best out of what is physically possible for them rather than blaming others and moaning about it how others have more chances.

There are plenty of people who had better chances in life than me, plenty who will have over my daughter. I've just got to make sure she has the best chance I can give her, if that means sacrificing things then that's how it is.

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Why?

Isn't that a defeatist attitude to say that?

Some careers have become harder to access than they were, so some things *have* changed... for the worse!

So when was it easier? It is easier now. The problem is you end up with an astronomical debt that you start paying back when on a decent wage.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Nick said:
It's not defeatist it's realistic.

It's defeatist.

Some careers have become harder to access by the eveybody person, and you're accepting that.

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Great, well done.

But not everyone is you.

Yet you want me to be angry for those that just accept everything.

I see both sides to it. And I also see people that think people of my age had it easy. We didn't. That is why so many of us are stuck in dead end jobs. And some think we should all have it handed to us on a plate.

All you can do is make the best of what you have.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
So when was it easier?

Well for some careers, even a decade ago!

And *definitely* thirty-forty years ago.

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
It's defeatist.

Some careers have become harder to access by the eveybody person, and you're accepting that.

And your answer to the problem is?

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
Yet you want me to be angry for those that just accept everything.

No I don't. I want you to accept that in your own way, you've been lucky.

You're generalising those who are restricted into those who are unwilling, and that's dangerous.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
And your answer to the problem is?

I gave the answer some posts ago!

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
Well for some careers, even a decade ago!

And *definitely* thirty-forty years ago.

For me it was over 30 years ago. And it certainly wasn't easy.

clint van damme · Aug 9, 2017

Astute said:
So when was it easier? It is easier now. The problem is you end up with an astronomical debt that you start paying back when on a decent wage.

absolutely no way it's easier now.
I bought my first house on shop floor factory workers wage and didn't have to worry about the expense of a car because I could go to work on the bus.
Highly unlikely it could be done now and a car is pretty much essential so another big expense. Throw in the now sky high costs of child care once you start a family and youngsters today are up against it more than we were.

The only advantage my kids have that I didn't is I can give them some financial support which my family just didn't have the money to give to me but apart from that they've got it tough - and even worse, it means we end up with them at home for even longer!!

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

Deleted member 5849 said:
No I don't. I want you to accept that in your own way, you've been lucky.

You're generalising those who are restricted into those who are unwilling, and that's dangerous.

I've been lucky?

So working over 100 hours a week and moving away from everyone I know to improve what I had was lucky?

Astute · Aug 9, 2017

clint van damme said:
absolutely no way it's easier now.
I bought my first house on shop floor factory workers wage and didn't have to worry about the expense of a car because I could go to work on the bus.
Highly unlikely it could be done now and a car is pretty much essential so another big expense. Throw in the now sky high costs of child care once you start a family and youngsters today are up against it more than we were.

The only advantage my kids have that I didn't is I can give them some financial support which my family just didn't have the money to give to me but apart from that they've got it tough - and even worse, it means we end up with them at home for even longer!!

How many would get the bus now? They have to have a car that they can't afford.

Its like 2008 never happened.... (15 Viewers)

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