shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Shhhh, they’ve been told a story by their betters and are waiting patiently with their mouths open for the trickle down to reach them.
And yet, that’s not actually what happens in practice is it?
Well there are plenty of 'experts' that have looked at potential & actual effects. And funnily enough - there is no actual real consensus as to whether it is a good or bad thing.And yet, that’s not actually what happens in practice is it?
Says he who has swallowed one side of the argument which fits his values...so everyone else must be wrong and stupid.Shhhh, they’ve been told a story by their betters and are waiting patiently with their mouths open for the trickle down to reach them.
Well there are plenty of 'experts' that have looked at potential & actual effects. And funnily enough - there is no actual real consensus as to whether it is a good or bad thing.
And the 'experts' (scientists in this case) latest contradiction - as recently as yesterday - red meat! Same evidence base interpreted differently means that we might just as well return to the old adage as probably being the best advice "too much of a good thing..."
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Well there are plenty of 'experts' that have looked at potential & actual effects. And funnily enough - there is no actual real consensus as to whether it is a good or bad thing.
And the 'experts' (scientists in this case) latest contradiction - as recently as yesterday - red meat! Same evidence base interpreted differently means that we might just as well return to the old adage as probably being the best advice "too much of a good thing..."
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The largest scale studies from the USA, which suffers from greater income inequality and working poverty than this country, support raising it to the equivalent of £11/hour on the basis that:
1. Low income earners will put more back into the economy
2. Businesses are able to raise prices by modest amounts to absorb increased costs
Not all evidence is equal in value-but in your case it just seems like you can’t be arsed to understand it so you dismiss those who devote their careers to a given subject.
So just accept what the science tells us today...then change to accept what they say next week. Sounds like a plan.That’s not what happened though. This is standard poor science reporting leading to people not understanding what research was actually done and what the results were.
The red meat example is the difference between individual and population level risks for example. Both pieces are perfectly congruent and even if they weren’t, that’s how science works. It builds toward a consensus through weight of evidence. No single study proves or disproves anything.
Wrong...I don't just dismiss it. Funny enough your evidence is a totally different country with different ethics, a different welfare state, a different tax system & a different economy.
As you raise the US...I have seen reports of the outcome of minimum wage in some US state (can't recall which) resulted in proportionately higher employment...in lowest paid jobs, with less overtime available - & greater unemployment overall. Almost the start of driving overall incomes down that sounds like to me.
As for moderate amounts of increased prices - you are agreeing with me! If prices go up moderately, those most affected are the poor & lower paid...the minimum wage quickly becomes pointless!!!
Strange that you always smell a rat on anything the Tories say, but not this. There MUST be something in it for the rich mustn't there?
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So just accept what the science tells us today...then change to accept what they say next week. Sounds like a plan.
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So just accept what the science tells us today...then change to accept what they say next week. Sounds like a plan.
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Id rather people understood what science was or ignored it all together to be honest.
That is spectacular.So just accept what the science tells us today...then change to accept what they say next week. Sounds like a plan.
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Anyone who thinks wage increases lead linearly to inflation needs to explain the correlation between these two graphs (hint: there is non because such a link doesn’t exist):
View attachment 13155
View attachment 13156
I always listen to the bloke down the pub myself. They're far better trained.That is spectacular.
If you're paid properly in the first place you don't need a minimum wage!You don’t need overtime if you’re paid properly to begin with. I’ve accounted for the differences with the US...to illustrate that in an even more unequal society a minimum wage increase would not do harm.
Wages in America have been below inflation and worker productivity for decades. It is simply restoring what should have already been in place
Careful - it's Schmeeee's plan not mine. And after all that was said about respect and choosing words carefully too! Good to see you have taken it all on board.Good grief what a dumbass
Careful - it's Schmeeee's plan not mine. And after all that was said about respect and choosing words carefully too! Good to see you have taken it all on board.
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Not losing anything over this. I don't accept it as a good thing anymore now, than I did when Labour announced similar.
In the end it sets up a spiralling of inflation to pay for it, pay rises for those in the middle to redress their pay differential, & will leave the lowest paid back at square 1...being unable to afford to live properly just like they are now.
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There is truth to this, but can you admit it's not the increase in the wages that causes the inflation, it's largely the greed of the companies?
If NLW/NMW went up say 5%, some companies would increase prices at least 5% citing this increase as the reason. They however conveniently ignore or fail to mention that worker wages are only a proportion of their costs and that many of their employees are paid above that level anyway and so no increase in costs for them would be incurred. It's an excuse for profiteering.
It's not to say the effects on inflation you describe don't occur to some degree, but lets at least apportion the blame for it correctly.
If you're paid properly in the first place you don't need a minimum wage!
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Careful - it's Schmeeee's plan not mine. And after all that was said about respect and choosing words carefully too! Good to see you have taken it all on board.
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So just accept what the science tells us today...then change to accept what they say next week. Sounds like a plan.
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There is truth to this, but can you admit it's not the increase in the wages that causes the inflation, it's largely the greed of the companies?
If NLW/NMW went up say 5%, some companies would increase prices at least 5% citing this increase as the reason. They however conveniently ignore or fail to mention that worker wages are only a proportion of their costs and that many of their employees are paid above that level anyway and so no increase in costs for them would be incurred. It's an excuse for profiteering.
It's not to say the effects on inflation you describe don't occur to some degree, but lets at least apportion the blame for it correctly.
I would argue that there is also a knock on effect. If you are a skilled machine setter & get paid x, & the toilet cleaner gets paid x-3...If minimum wage is set at x-2, you are going to set wheels in motion that culminates in industrial action of some sort to restore your x-3! All adds up to increase in prices, inflation...etc...& back to square 1.
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I’d be happy people aren’t being paid poverty wages subsidised by my taxes instead of wondering what I can get out of it.I would argue that there is also a knock on effect. If you are a skilled machine setter & get paid x, & the toilet cleaner gets paid x-3...If minimum wage is set at x-2, you are going to set wheels in motion that culminates in industrial action of some sort to restore your x-3! All adds up to increase in prices, inflation...etc...& back to square 1.
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I would argue that there is also a knock on effect. If you are a skilled machine setter & get paid x, & the toilet cleaner gets paid x-3...If minimum wage is set at x-2, you are going to set wheels in motion that culminates in industrial action of some sort to restore your x-3! All adds up to increase in prices, inflation...etc...& back to square 1.
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Tell you what Baz...I earn over £17/hour. If the cleaner goes up to £10/hour, I would DEMAND...absolutely nothing. Again, a claim not really borne out by reality.
That is my overall point. Stop subsidising via welfare state & companies have to pay fair money to have the toilets cleaned (proper capitalist supply & demand). Instead of today's obsessional mentality that they only clean the toilets because they are too stupid to do anything else so they will work for virtually nothing!I’d be happy people aren’t being paid poverty wages subsidised by my taxes instead of wondering what I can get out of it.
Hu-fuck8ng rah!I get your point, but again it's a position taken out of self interest and frankly not having an understanding of economics because as you say it ends up being a vicious circle when it is trying to bring in a minimum standard of life for people which if everyone gets a pay rise never happens as the bar just gets higher.. Personally I think the vast majority of the burden should be taken by those at the top/senior positions which would allow those slightly further up the food chain to also have a modest increase if their wages wouldn't be that much higher than MW after the changes.
1. You bought "DEMAND" into the argument...but I bet you would start kicking off if your hourly rate got close to the minimum wage rate!!!
2. Be careful what you wish for...it might yet become ypur reality.
Add to that...it stifles ambition. Today's junior accountant might aspire to be finance director or even CEO. Tomorrow's might be stifled to the point of accounts supervisor because the time & effort to get to their initial ambition just isn't worth it anymore
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That is my overall point. Stop subsidising via welfare state & companies have to pay fair money to have the toilets cleaned (proper capitalist supply & demand). Instead of today's obsessional mentality that they only clean the toilets because they are too stupid to do anything else so they will work for virtually nothing!
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That's generally what happens after an election loss isn't it?The current leader of the Labour Party has said that Corbyn will quit after the election !
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