JR finished (1 Viewer)

dongonzalos · Jul 1, 2014

Many stated that the council were as bad or in some cases possibly worse than SISU in this mess. They stated it would all come out in the JR. Then those defending the council stance will be shocked and embarrassed.

If I have it right the judge pretty much said that SISU had been trying to get ACL to breaking point to pick it up cheaply and they had no back up plan.

This has failed and the council has done no wrong.

I hope those who staunchly attacked the council are now big enough to say we were wrong they did nothing wrong.

SISU need to change their negotiating tactics come back to the table and agree a long term sliding scale rent with access to 80% F and B.

Or start bidding for ACL in full

Otis · Jul 1, 2014

I think though that to a man we all knew Sisu's plan was to pick up the Ricoh on the cheap didn't we?

Judge has just confirmed there what we already knew anyway.

Grendel · Jul 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Many stated that the council were as bad or in some cases possibly worse than SISU in this mess. They stated it would all come out in the JR. Then those defending the council stance will be shocked and embarrassed.

If I have it right the judge pretty much said that SISU had been trying to get ACL to breaking point to pick it up cheaply and they had no back up plan.

This has failed and the council has done no wrong.

I hope those who staunchly attacked the council are now big enough to say we were wrong they did nothing wrong.

SISU need to change their negotiating tactics come back to the table and agree a long term sliding scale rent with access to 80% F and B.

Or start bidding for ACL in full

Other than;

Overcharging on rent
Overcharging on rates
Docking the club 20 points
Placing no worth of the club as an asset
Playing a part in bankrupting the club twice (something that never happened before in its 130 year history)
Creating a business model that means we are stuck with sisu for god knows how long

Yes other than that they've done a top job.

dongonzalos · Jul 1, 2014

Otis said:
I think though that to a man we all knew Sisu's plan was to pick up the Ricoh on the cheap didn't we?

Judge has just confirmed there what we already knew anyway.

To some the council are to blame for equal share or most of this. The Judge has endorsed what 95% of us felt.

dongonzalos · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Other than;

Overcharging on rent
Overcharging on rates
Docking the club 20 points
Placing no worth of the club as an asset
Playing a part in bankrupting the club twice (something that never happened before in its 130 year history)
Creating a business model that means we are stuck with sisu for god knows how long

Yes other than that they've done a top job.

Your not very good at accepting when you are wrong are you

sky blue john · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Other than;

Overcharging on rent
Overcharging on rates
Docking the club 20 points
Placing no worth of the club as an asset
Playing a part in bankrupting the club twice (something that never happened before in its 130 year history)
Creating a business model that means we are stuck with sisu for god knows how long

Yes other than that they've done a top job.

Lmfao !!!
All above scenarios could and should have been avoided by Sisu if they wanted !!
You have been played and your obviously still being played by Sisu !!!

The lost fan · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Other than;

Overcharging on rent
Overcharging on rates
Docking the club 20 points
Placing no worth of the club as an asset
Playing a part in bankrupting the club twice (something that never happened before in its 130 year history)
Creating a business model that means we are stuck with sisu for god knows how long

Yes other than that they've done a top job.

Grendy YOU ARE ONE TOP TOOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

chickentikkamasala · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Other than;

Overcharging on rent
Overcharging on rates
Docking the club 20 points
Placing no worth of the club as an asset
Playing a part in bankrupting the club twice (something that never happened before in its 130 year history)
Creating a business model that means we are stuck with sisu for god knows how long

Yes other than that they've done a top job.

Rent to high?

Yes, but Sisu pride themselves on due diligence, it is a shame they did not notice this important factor.

Docking the club 20 points?

May I take you to the high courts and the comments made by the judge

Sisu had only one strategy for sustaining the football club according to Justice Higgingbottom and that was to acquire the arena at a knock down price, when this failed there was no plan B the judge said Sisu deliberately cranked up pressure on ACL and the council by going on a rent strike and so putting the arenas management company in trouble. Sisu also threatened to move or even liquidate the club

The answer to the points deduction is clearly in the words of the judge.

Placing no worth on the club as an asset?

CCFC did that themselves... CCFC sold Football Investors Ltd, the non-trading company that owns 50% of the shares in ACL, to the Higgs Charity in 2003 for £6.5m. The club relinquished this income to ACL.
Sisu should have had plan A as buying this share back instead of trying to distress ACL and purchase it on the cheap.

The rest of your points are not worth even answering, I can almost hear the deluded influenced words of Sisu in your voice.

Jim · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Other than;

Overcharging on rent
Overcharging on rates
Docking the club 20 points
Placing no worth of the club as an asset
Playing a part in bankrupting the club twice (something that never happened before in its 130 year history)
Creating a business model that means we are stuck with sisu for god knows how long

Yes other than that they've done a top job.

You need to read the full transcript of the JR decision.

In it you will find how much ACL needed to start paying initially in interest payments as part of the Stadium lease. If ACL had not existed then CCFC would be paying this sum instead. It was well above the £1.3m rent that CCFC were being charged. The rent could only be lowered once ACL had matured as a business and developed other revenue streams and restructured the loan through the council.

ACL did not dock the club 20 points. The responsibility for that rest soley with SISU for prolonged non-payment of rent and a farcical administration process.

Bankrupting the club? You're joking right? As confirmed by the Judge, the rent formed less than 10% of the annual expenses of the club. As the Judge put it, it was the poor management of the clubs owners who have created the financial mess that CCFC are in.

Read the full transcript and get a real picture of what has happened.

hill83 · Jul 1, 2014

Full meltdown coming today by about 5pm I reckon. Should be amusing.

lordsummerisle · Jul 1, 2014

Whilst he looked finished, he managed to recover.

[video=youtube;9YPQARBgHS8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPQARBgHS8[/video]

CCFC PimpRail · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Creating a business model that means we are stuck with sisu for god knows how long

Yes other than that they've done a top job.

So you know that SISU want out, but are stuck renting a stadium that they don't pay for and aren't even resident at...? Since they aren't tied to the Ricoh anymore, I'm assuming they can now sell at any time. And since their business can't get any worse, I'm assuming you think they are on the up and can sell, like Timmy said.

covcity4life · Jul 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Many stated that the council were as bad or in some cases possibly worse than SISU in this mess. They stated it would all come out in the JR. Then those defending the council stance will be shocked and embarrassed.

If I have it right the judge pretty much said that SISU had been trying to get ACL to breaking point to pick it up cheaply and they had no back up plan.

This has failed and the council has done no wrong.

I hope those who staunchly attacked the council are now big enough to say we were wrong they did nothing wrong.

SISU need to change their negotiating tactics come back to the table and agree a long term sliding scale rent with access to 80% F and B.

Or start bidding for ACL in full

an i told you so thread? really? is this about ccfc or you?

also you were very quiet when higgs lost case to sisu i remember.

dongonzalos · Jul 1, 2014

The JR is the worst self inflicted PR SISU have ever done.
Unfortunately they continue to under estimate how a council will have to react differently to a private business.

Offer a decent price for ACL or start rent negotiations. You still have your ace up your sleeve with the kidnapped club. You did have a jack with the impending JR that was the time to negotiate. Two weeks ago.

Sub · Jul 1, 2014

covcity4life said:
an i told you so thread? really? is this about ccfc or you?

also you were very quiet when higgs lost case to sisu i remember.

I thought that was a draw nobody won or lost and everybody paid their own costs?

dongonzalos · Jul 1, 2014

covcity4life said:
an i told you so thread? really? is this about ccfc or you?

also you were very quiet when higgs lost case to sisu i remember.

How quite was I???

Not quite at all really???

If you try and make a point, don't make it up

Grendel · Jul 1, 2014

If people take the angst and nonsense away they should look at the facts.

Even when the club was attracting 20,000 to the ground pre-sisu it was losing money with a wage bill that was not as high as many other clubs.

It's revenue was led than clubs with far lower crowds.

The guff about congratulating the council would be amusing if it was not so disturbing.

With ACL the club as an attraction to potential suitors is negligible.

We have the only city where fans congratulate a council that has created a model so Unattractive we are likely not to see the club back in Coventry for many years.

We are supposed to applaud that? Amazing.

shmmeee · Jul 1, 2014

covcity4life said:
an i told you so thread? really? is this about ccfc or you?

also you were very quiet when higgs lost case to sisu i remember.

I'm kinda stuck on this. On the one hand, sure it's immature. On the other, we have spent the best part of 18 months arguing about this every day, it is nice to be vindicated, had the boot been on the other foot I imagine Grendel and friends would've been just as unbearable.

I rule "Boys will be boys"

dongonzalos · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
If people take the angst and nonsense away they should look at the facts.

Even when the club was attracting 20,000 to the ground pre-sisu it was losing money with a wage bill that was not as high as many other clubs.

It's revenue was led than clubs with far lower crowds.

The guff about congratulating the council would be amusing if it was not so disturbing.

With ACL the club as an attraction to potential suitors is negligible.

We have the only city where fans congratulate a council that has created a model so Unattractive we are likely not to see the club back in Coventry for many years.

We are supposed to applaud that? Amazing.

The last paragraph should tell you all you need to know about how shocking the actions have been by the owners you vehemently supported

sky blue john · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
If people take the angst and nonsense away they should look at the facts.

Even when the club was attracting 20,000 to the ground pre-sisu it was losing money with a wage bill that was not as high as many other clubs.

It's revenue was led than clubs with far lower crowds.

The guff about congratulating the council would be amusing if it was not so disturbing.

With ACL the club as an attraction to potential suitors is negligible.

We have the only city where fans congratulate a council that has created a model so Unattractive we are likely not to see the club back in Coventry for many years.

We are supposed to applaud that? Amazing.

What's this made up accusation got to do with your other post on this thread ???

Grendel · Jul 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
The last paragraph should tell you all you need to know about how shocking the actions have been by the owners you vehemently supported

I support the club not the owners. You will not find any posts where I have said I do.

The fact that even in the first season at the club when we had crowds of 27,000 and still lost money tells you a you need to know about the business model.

This is serious stuff and unless people really open their eyes to the predicament we face we will soon have no club at all.

chickentikkamasala · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
If people take the angst and nonsense away they should look at the facts.

Even when the club was attracting 20,000 to the ground pre-sisu it was losing money with a wage bill that was not as high as many other clubs.

It's revenue was led than clubs with far lower crowds.

The guff about congratulating the council would be amusing if it was not so disturbing.

With ACL the club as an attraction to potential suitors is negligible.

We have the only city where fans congratulate a council that has created a model so Unattractive we are likely not to see the club back in Coventry for many years.

We are supposed to applaud that? Amazing.

Lets go back to your previous post........

Other than;

Overcharging on rent
Overcharging on rates
Docking the club 20 points
Placing no worth of the club as an asset
Playing a part in bankrupting the club twice (something that never happened before in its 130 year history)
Creating a business model that means we are stuck with sisu for god knows how long

Yes other than that they've done a top job.

Back up your statements above.

oldskyblue58 · Jul 1, 2014

Not sure it is over Don ........... think this has a ways to run yet even if the judgement handed down seems quite unequivocable.

What the Higgs case and this JR has done is however to make clear that the Trustees and Council Officers acted properly in their legal duties. I seem to remember comments stating that there were grounds for possible criminal prosecutions being made previously. There has been no proof of any conspiracy

Also a point that struck me was about how the Charity would be paid for their shares in the proposed deal. It seems to imply that the money to pay for the shares would have been sourced from future earnings of ACL. Perhaps I am misunderstanding or mis reading but that can not be right can it? Companies can only purchase or finance the purchase of its own shares in very specific circumstances I thought.

The one thing this does not help is CCFC and its fans. The club is not SISU, CCC, ACL etc...... its heart, its being are the fans that support it. This whole process does nothing to help the fans and certainly does not as Fisher put it "put the fans first"

Grendel · Jul 1, 2014

chickentikkamasala said:
Lets go back to your previous post........

Back up your statements above.

Back them up?

£1.3 million plus match day costs. Frankly if you think that's acceptable you are no fan of the club.

Remember - even when the club had gates of 26,000 it was losing money with a wage bill that wasn't even excessive by championship standards. What does that tell you?

skybluetony176 · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
I support the club not the owners. You will not find any posts where I have said I do.

The fact that even in the first season at the club when we had crowds of 27,000 and still lost money tells you a you need to know about the business model.

This is serious stuff and unless people really open their eyes to the predicament we face we will soon have no club at all.

you're living in the past, get with the present and future.

the clubs business model has completely changed as has ACL's since the period you are talking about. the club doesn't have the same playing budget and if they returned they wouldn't be paying the same rent. at any point are you going to admit that a return to the ricoh is the best short term option for the club or are you still more interested in seeing ACL go bust and CCC/Higgs take the hit so you can laugh about it while turning a blind eye to the demise of our football club at the hands of sisu?

our say our football club, you're that blinded by some misguided anger fueled revenge of CCC you stopped suporting the club soem time ago.

dongonzalos · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
I support the club not the owners. You will not find any posts where I have said I do.

The fact that even in the first season at the club when we had crowds of 27,000 and still lost money tells you a you need to know about the business model.

This is serious stuff and unless people really open their eyes to the predicament we face we will soon have no club at all.

I never said you supported the owners I said you vehemently defended their tactics. Even after they took us to Northampton.
In the same breath you gave full barrels to the council and charity. In a manner that was misguided hopefully now you will load it up and fire it at the real instigators of our problems

Kingokings204 · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Back them up?

£1.3 million plus match day costs. Frankly if you think that's acceptable you are no fan of the club.

Remember - even when the club had gates of 26,000 it was losing money with a wage bill that wasn't even excessive by championship standards. What does that tell you?

But it wasn't 10% of clubs turnover.

What does that tell you.

You really are a tart and can't believe I have replied to you.

italiahorse · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Back them up?

£1.3 million plus match day costs. Frankly if you think that's acceptable you are no fan of the club.

Remember - even when the club had gates of 26,000 it was losing money with a wage bill that wasn't even excessive by championship standards. What does that tell you?

That you have a problem of making things up ?

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
If people take the angst and nonsense away they should look at the facts.

Even when the club was attracting 20,000 to the ground pre-sisu it was losing money with a wage bill that was not as high as many other clubs.

It's revenue was led than clubs with far lower crowds.

The guff about congratulating the council would be amusing if it was not so disturbing.

With ACL the club as an attraction to potential suitors is negligible.

We have the only city where fans congratulate a council that has created a model so Unattractive we are likely not to see the club back in Coventry for many years.

We are supposed to applaud that? Amazing.

So, do you know what they should have done? Buy ACL. For a fair price. Set their own rent, access to revenues. All finished. You are right, the model was a crippling one. So, change it for the better. Just imagine rights to all the non-footballing revenues pouring into the club too.

The situation was bad, but they're tactics have made it appalling. That's what you need to accept, dear chap.

It's like taking away the pain of someone who's got an eyelash in their eye by distracting them with a broken leg

RPHunt · Jul 1, 2014

Kingokings204 said:
You really are a tart and can't believe I have replied to you.

Exactly, I just wish people would put Grovel on ignore as there is no sensible discussion to be had with him.

All of his posts are merely attempts to change the topic to his favourite one, i.e. himself. He has no interest in Coventry, the club or its fans.

chickentikkamasala · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Back them up?

£1.3 million plus match day costs. Frankly if you think that's acceptable you are no fan of the club.

Remember - even when the club had gates of 26,000 it was losing money with a wage bill that wasn't even excessive by championship standards. What does that tell you?

Grendel.... where did i say this was acceptable? again you are deluded, Sisu pride themselves on due diligence, something they did not do properly, why did they not make purchasing back the 50% share of ACL priority number one if income streams are so important? because the plan was to always distress ACL to get it on the cheap, the priority for Sisu is never CCFC but to make money for their investors.

You have still declined to back up your other statements. So will wait patiently for your answers.

No future with SISU · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Other than;

Overcharging on rent
Overcharging on rates
Docking the club 20 points
Placing no worth of the club as an asset
Playing a part in bankrupting the club twice (something that never happened before in its 130 year history)
Creating a business model that means we are stuck with sisu for god knows how long

Yes other than that they've done a top job.

You were wrong on the court case and once again you are wrong, the club went bankrupt once not twice( caused by SISU),SISU created the business model, the FL docked the 20 points,the club with £70m of debt and no plan how much value do you put on that.

Jim · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
Back them up?

£1.3 million plus match day costs. Frankly if you think that's acceptable you are no fan of the club.

Remember - even when the club had gates of 26,000 it was losing money with a wage bill that wasn't even excessive by championship standards. What does that tell you?

Still far less than the £1.9m per year required if the club had financed the stadium themselves.........

Grendel · Jul 1, 2014

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
So, do you know what they should have done? Buy ACL. For a fair price. Set their own rent, access to revenues. All finished. You are right, the model was a crippling one. So, change it for the better. Just imagine rights to all the non-footballing revenues pouring into the club too.

The situation was bad, but they're tactics have made it appalling. That's what you need to accept, dear chap.

It's like taking away the pain of someone who's got an eyelash in their eye by distracting them with a broken leg

ACL is the ultimate issue though. It's not going to attract a purchaser to pay anything like the initial outlay. It's value is only there when the club is in place.

Forget sisu for one minute. If you were an investor on the look out for a club you wouldn't think twice about Coventry.

When at the Ricoh it has always lost money and unless it has the management company and all it's benefits its never going to offer any appeal. The high crowds at the Ricoh disguise the fact that the average price has always been £10 per ticket. It's just not an attractive ownership proposition.

People think sisu will now move on. I don't. I can see a long hard road ahead. The attrition has just begun. More legal cases, more stalemate. The club is in limbo - not wanted by the owner and not attractive to a new one. This isn't a desirable place to be.

No future with SISU · Jul 1, 2014

Grendel said:
If people take the angst and nonsense away they should look at the facts.

Even when the club was attracting 20,000 to the ground pre-sisu it was losing money with a wage bill that was not as high as many other clubs.

It's revenue was led than clubs with far lower crowds.

The guff about congratulating the council would be amusing if it was not so disturbing.

With ACL the club as an attraction to potential suitors is negligible.

We have the only city where fans congratulate a council that has created a model so Unattractive we are likely not to see the club back in Coventry for many years.

We are supposed to applaud that? Amazing.

You need to read the High Court Judgement, 40 + pages and he is a judge. It is there in black and white, SISU are not to be trusted. You have backed a Donkey.

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