Judgment on points from FA crucial (1 Viewer)

OyJimmy said:

If they deduct 10 points its a pretty good indicator that they believe that the football share is owned by the entity in admin, not the holding co. When will we find out?

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Eventually

I'm not sure that it will prove anything. If they decide that the 2 entities are practically indistinguishable they will deduct points anyway.

OyJimmy said:

If they deduct 10 points its a pretty good indicator that they believe that the football share is owned by the entity in admin, not the holding co. When will we find out?

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Would sisu really be that stupid as not to have made sure everything was transferred.

SonofErnie said:

I'm not sure that it will prove anything. If they decide that the 2 entities are practically indistinguishable they will deduct points anyway.

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If they do then sisu have made a huge mistake by their actions last night. It was up to ACL to prove the need of admin , the judge may well have thrown the case out today.
As i have said on other threads this is an issue about a rent disagreement not the ability to pay its bills.

Are the two (the subsidiary and the holding company) mutually exclusive? If this cannot be proven I suspect the 10 points minimum deduction as a consequence of administration is almost inevitable.

The deduction is inevitable I think. No way the FL would want to deal with the shit storm from fans of other clubs if they take no action. They would have to explain their reasoning to a wider football public that have no clue as to the complexities of this case (a bit like most of us), and it will all get messy.

The FL will deduct us 10 points and will deal with any legal challenge from SISU if and when it arises. They're forever rewriting the rule book on this anyway. They'll just see this as closing another loophole.

But then, what do I know. I could have this whole thing arse about...

OyJimmy said:

But in the scenario that the holding co owned the football share and we owned a Gym, which we decided to put into admin, then there is no way that the FA could fine us 10 points as we are only putting a Gym into admin. This is no different.

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Seems the confusion arises as the League share has to reside with the club,the club up until yesterday was CCFC LTD,
So either the Share still resides inCCFC LTD or the FL have allowed SISU to transfer it ,which is a new precident and taken ACL by surprise and should mean there is no points deduction..

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wingy said:

Seems the confusion arises as the League share has to reside with the club,the club up until yesterday was CCFC LTD, </p>
<p>So either the Share still resides inCCFC LTD or the FL have allowed SISU to transfer it ,which is a new precident and taken ACL by surprise and should mean there is no points deduction..<img src="http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/images/smilies/confused.png" border="0" alt="" title="Confused" smilieid="10" class="inlineimg" />

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wouldn't that prove they moved it to specifically avoid a points deduction?

coundonskyblue said:

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wouldn't that prove they moved it to specifically avoid a points deduction?

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May be more to do with allowing SISU to break their lease ,which would then mean ACL have a case with the FL.

Wingy...yes, i always thought that the golden share was non-transferrable

Good source on twitter is saying it's likely to be 15 or 20 points and probably next season

PVA said:

Good source on twitter is saying it's likely to be 15 or 20 points and probably next season

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How many 'good sources' have we had on here talking utter bollocks?!!!!!

HP is a 'source' FACT!

I wonder if sisu have set up the different companies with different owners. That way ccfc ltd and ccfc holding might not be seen as indistinguishable.

Coincidence?

http://www.ccfcshop.co.uk

Has nothing been decided as of yet?

theferret said:

Coincidence?

http://www.ccfcshop.co.uk

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Not likely.

Godiva said:

I wonder if sisu have set up the different companies with different owners. That way ccfc ltd and ccfc holding might not be seen as indistinguishable.

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Again they would have had to inform the league upon any change of ownership,fit and proper etc.

wingy said:

Again they would have had to inform the league upon any change of ownership,fit and proper etc.

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Yes, and that could have happened back when ARVO appeared.

theferret said:

Coincidence?

http://www.ccfcshop.co.uk

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Probably to stop people askiing for season ticket refunds.

Who'd ask for one of those?

wingy said:

Probably to stop people askiing for season ticket refunds.

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Godiva said:

Yes, and that could have happened back when ARVO appeared.

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The last (posted) accounts show both the FL share and the players'registrations with CCFC Ltd. They could surely only be transferred with the FL's agreement?

The FL had already agreed that CCFC holdings could play at an alternate ground to complete their fixtures.
That's significant because it implies that CCFC holdings have the golden share and are trading.
My thought is that would mean the FL would have difficulty imposing a points deduction on a football club trading properly and not in admin?

They have taken a subsidiary company of SISU (not the football club) and placed it into admin because it owed rent for the stadium.
Legally whether that stadium is used by another SISU company for conferencing or a car show or even a football game is immaterial here.
It has nothing to do with the FL. It's a matter for the lease holder and the landlord.

Now whether the FL try to see that SISU are playing a game of legal strategy or not and infer that they as ultimate owners of the football club (in all it's company formations) have indeed filed admin is another opinion. It's a bit vague though at best isn't it? The football club are trading and not in admin! The football club obviously hold the golden share (CCFC holdings) and is why the FL gave them consent to play elsewhere.

Its not about a loop hole. The football club is trading and not in admin. ACL did not seem to understand that till yesterday either.

The question is surely about when was the golden share transferred to the holding company or was it always with them? But again the FL already gave their blessing for the football club (CCFC holdings) to continue playing elsewhere if the need arose so they can't have it both ways?

SISU's team have clearly manipulated the FL and put them between a rock and a hard place.
Can't see how the FL can apply any punishment to solvent a trading club? If they do I see legal challenges for the next 12 months.

This all should mean promotion in the playoffs is still on.
Sadly (me of all people) doubt that we can achieve that after losing our two top goal scorers now. :facepalm:
I will live in optimism though...

PVA said:

Good source on twitter is saying it's likely to be 15 or 20 points and probably next season

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If we can get it confirmed on Facebook as well it will be a definite. :facepalm:

Waldorf said:

The last (posted) accounts show both the FL share and the players'registrations with CCFC Ltd. They could surely only be transferred with the FL's agreement?

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FL will deduct the points I'm sure of it regardless or where the share sits - it's an obvious trick to try and walk away from a legitimate football debt incurred by the operating club - maybe legally it would be OK but even then there would need to be a decent span of time before the movement of assets and allowing the company to go to the wall - I'm thinking 3 years from experience - also consider CCFC Ltd is not a trading company so it's obviously just a channel for the holding company which is the operating company. FL WILL apply the penalty - question now is how big will it be?

Think we need to remember why these sanctions of points deductions came in in the first place from the FL - they are designed to punish clubs from walking away from their financial commitments when it doesn't work out - can't see this getting past the FL

Godiva said:

Yes, and that could have happened back when ARVO appeared.

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I think the way it works is that ARVO are creditors of CCFC Ltd, rather than owners. For some reason, SISU granted them a charge over pretty much everything at the club that wasn't bolted down, the land at Ryton and elsewhere, and even stuff like the club crest. This was just on a year ago, iirc. What CCFC gained by way of that charge, I'm not clear on, but it gave ARVO the right to put CCFC Ltd into admin, which they did last night.

At the time I thought it might have been a device to give SISU some sort of preferred creditor status if the club ever went into admin. Turns out it actually gave them the ability to put the club into admin before another creditor did it.

What's odd here is that the books for CCFC Ltd, signed off (late) by Fisher in Jun 2012, show quite clearly that CCFC Ltd was the club as we'd understand it. It took all of the revenue that the club generated, paid the bills (sort of), and held the player registrations. Somehow though, in the the nine months between then and now, all of the assets and profitable stuff has been moved to CCFC Holdings (stripped, some might say), and what's left in CCFC Ltd appears to be just the debt on the lease and the property which ARVO already has a charge over.

I find that remarkable. It's almost as though someone planned it all along, and was just stretching out negotiations to avoid paying the rent for as long as possible before finally bailing out.

Either way, if it gets to court, I think that the club's directors will have some explaining to do.

*The accounts for Coventry City Limited, and the associated charge by Arvo are available from companies house on the web, for a quid, should you wish to look for yourselves.

duffer said:

I think the way it works is that ARVO are creditors of CCFC Ltd, rather than owners. For some reason, SISU granted them a charge over pretty much everything at the club that wasn't bolted down, the land at Ryton and elsewhere, and even stuff like the club crest. This was just on a year ago, iirc. What CCFC gained by way of that charge, I'm not clear on, but it gave ARVO the right to put CCFC Ltd into admin, which they did last night.

At the time I thought it might have been a device to give SISU some sort of preferred creditor status if the club ever went into admin. Turns out it actually gave them the ability to put the club into admin before another creditor did it.

What's odd here is that the books for CCFC Ltd, signed off (late) by Fisher in Jun 2012, show quite clearly that CCFC Ltd was the club as we'd understand it. It took all of the revenue that the club generated, paid the bills (sort of), and held the player registrations. Somehow though, in the the nine months between then and now, all of the assets and profitable stuff has been moved to CCFC Holdings (stripped, some might say), and what's left in CCFC Ltd appears to be just the debt on the lease and the property which ARVO already has a charge over.

I find that remarkable. It's almost as though someone planned it all along, and was just stretching out negotiations to avoid paying the rent for as long as possible before finally bailing out.

Either way, if it gets to court, I think that the club's directors will have some explaining to do.

*The accounts for Coventry City Limited, and the associated charge by Arvo are available from companies house on the web, for a quid, should you wish to look for yourselves.

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Remember the fantastic journalism extremely well .SBT reveals the presence of ARVO .

Les Reid pops up the Ricoh .

"Excuse meTF,What is this new entity ARVO??"

TF..." Absolutely nothing to see here old boy ,normal business practice,Move along now!!"

Yes the Beeb are a bunch of Lightweights also.