Lack of news? (1 Viewer)

Colonel Mustard · Mar 7, 2013

Brighton Sky Blue said:
There's no set definition. I'm sure you would accept though, that a lot of caretakers achieve an upturn in form because of the change in approach they might bring, because the old manager was either unpopular, incompetent, or both, and so on. If Black hadn't been in charge all that time ago you wouldn't be clamouring for his appointment-indeed I doubt you'd have heard of him.

I do accept that caretakers often see an upturn in form, but there are two caveats here: for one thing, Black wasn't the caretaker - he was given the full-time job of CCFC. And Black's turnaround wasn't the typical 'extra effort', but rather a complete change in tactics, attitude and philosophy - all things that point to a good football mind.

We may not have heard of Black had he not been part of CCFC, but he was and we have and we have a pretty complete dossier on him. The same can't be said of other random coaches.

Colonel Mustard · Mar 7, 2013

Brighton Sky Blue said:
That being the case, surely we should hire him in 2022.

No. For the reasons I have already listed.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Mar 7, 2013

Brighton Sky Blue said:
There are quite literally hundreds of coaches who all have experience coaching and developing top quality players. If Black had any appetite for management he would have applied and been appointed for a position between now and then. If he hadn't managed here 9 years ago would you still be wanting him? Bear in mind I'd be surprised if you can name half a dozen other coaches who weren't employed by us at some point.

I just disagree with the opinion that his philosophies and tactis would be outdated because he hasn't managed in 9 years which was what you said. I agree there are many coaches who would be just as qualified as Black for the position.

Anyway this is pointless, Pressley is our man. Lets get behind him

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 7, 2013

Colonel Mustard said:
I do accept that caretakers often see an upturn in form, but there are two caveats here: for one thing, Black wasn't the caretaker - he was given the full-time job of CCFC. And Black's turnaround wasn't the typical 'extra effort', but rather a complete change in tactics, attitude and philosophy - all things that point to a good football mind.

We may not have heard of Black had he not been part of CCFC, but he was and we have and we have a pretty complete dossier on him. The same can't be said of other random coaches.

What if Micky Adams had been sacked immediately after his 8th placed finish? We don't have a complete dossier on him. He was last in charge donkeys' years ago-and interspersed among the few thumping wins (PNE, Millwall, Walsall, Gillingham, 3 of whom either got relegated or came close and 1 of whom was distracted by a Cup run), were some less than free flowing displays. Thorn achieved all of the things you state yet the following season was a complete disaster (which few of us saw coming when he was appointed). Black may or may not have been as well but the club's finances were considerably weaker in 04/05 and the squad's better players were sold from under the manager's nose.

Your 'dossier' comes from a successful half season in 2004. His caretaker spell at Sunderland didn't exactly convince anybody of this infalliable footballing genius you portray.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 7, 2013

CCFC said:
I just disagree with the opinion that his philosophies and tactis would be outdated because he hasn't managed in 9 years which was what you said. I agree there are many coaches who would be just as qualified as Black for the position.

Anyway this is pointless, Pressley is our man. Lets get behind him

That isn't what I said-the point was that what worked then is no indicator for what would work now.

Colonel Mustard · Mar 7, 2013

Brighton Sky Blue said:
What if Micky Adams had been sacked immediately after his 8th placed finish? We don't have a complete dossier on him. He was last in charge donkeys' years ago-and interspersed among the few thumping wins (PNE, Millwall, Walsall, Gillingham, 3 of whom either got relegated or came close and 1 of whom was distracted by a Cup run), were some less than free flowing displays.

What if, what if ...

These hypothetical scenarios are crazy. Adams wasn't sacked. But if he was, why? Who would he have been replaced by in this hypothetical world? And we would have a very full dossier on Adams, based on his previous managerial and post-Cov managerial jobs.

Thorn achieved all of the things you state yet the following season was a complete disaster (which few of us saw coming when he was appointed).

No, what Thorn achieved was the typical caretaker results. He earned a contract. The issue was not sacking him sooner.

Your 'dossier' comes from a successful half season in 2004.

No it doesn't. And again, I am not sure why you are so opposed to confirmed knowledge.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 7, 2013

Colonel Mustard said:
What if, what if ...

These hypothetical scenarios are crazy. Adams wasn't sacked. But if he was, why? Who would he have been replaced by in this hypothetical world? And we would have a very full dossier on Adams, based on his previous managerial and post-Cov managerial jobs.

No, what Thorn achieved was the typical caretaker results. He earned a contract. The issue was not sacking him sooner.

No it doesn't. And again, I am not sure why you are so opposed to confirmed knowledge.

We're clearly not going to agree here so I'll leave it at this. The hypothetical situations are relevant-our retrospective view of a manager depends on the manner of his departure and his record up to that point. Had Adams been sacked after that season, rather than the season where it went tits up for him, he would be touted as a viable candidate on here by some. Equally for Thorn-had we not hired him after his caretaker spell, there would be people saying very similar things as to what you're saying about Black; and how were his results the 'typical caretaker results'?

What distinguishes Black from any other talented and able coach in the game for you is the fact that he was our manager once. That aside he has experience and skills in line with plenty of other equally valid candidates; what he achieved from December 2003 to April 2004 is the sole reason you mention him above any other such candidate. As I said though, we plainly won't agree so this is the last I'll say on it.

cyril · Mar 8, 2013

Mental Mickey just went nuts simple

georgehudson · Mar 8, 2013

ironically we don't & probably never will, know about the succession of events & assurances followed by non - assurances that MR was party to,
we never heard from TF during this time other than to massage JS's ego,
& vitally we never heard from our esteemed JS as to her views

JimmyHillsbeard · Mar 8, 2013

georgehudson said:
ironically we don't & probably never will, know about the succession of events & assurances followed by non - assurances that MR was party to,
we never heard from TF during this time other than to massage JS's ego,
& vitally we never heard from our esteemed JS as to her views

True, but we never really learned the truth behind the defenestration of Black for Reid, the long drawn out decision to sack Adams, or even the reason why Dave Sexton was sacked.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2013

JimmyHillsbeard said:
True, but we never really learned the truth behind the defenestration of Black for Reid, the long drawn out decision to sack Adams, or even the reason why Dave Sexton was sacked.

Black went as Reid was a big name at the time so McGinnity went stupidly for him.

superskyblue · Mar 8, 2013

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I don't understand this demand for Black every time we're looking for a new manager. His reign here was not only brief but nearly 10 years ago!

In my experience as a Cov fan (season ticket holder since 97) the Black era was when we played our most free flowing, attacking football where we regularly took teams apart in style (at home). Admittedly I wasn't travelling away (bar one horrendous trip to Crewe.. on the same day Brian Lara scored 400* vs England.. bad day for me all round) but even so that era of supporting Cov is up there with following the Hadji/Chippo/Keane/McAllister side of 99/00.

I am however happy to support Pressley, just glad we've gone for a manager who isn't proven to be shite such as Phil Brown, Keith Curle etc.

Colonel Mustard · Mar 8, 2013

Brighton Sky Blue said:
We're clearly not going to agree here so I'll leave it at this. The hypothetical situations are relevant-our retrospective view of a manager depends on the manner of his departure and his record up to that point. Had Adams been sacked after that season, rather than the season where it went tits up for him, he would be touted as a viable candidate on here by some. Equally for Thorn-had we not hired him after his caretaker spell, there would be people saying very similar things as to what you're saying about Black; and how were his results the 'typical caretaker results'?

There was nothing spectacular about Thorn's tenure at the end of 2011. He won three games out of 10, two of which were against soft opposition at the tailend of the season. And frankly, his interviews left a lot of question marks about his footballing nouse. That's the case I would have made against anyone rooting for his return in your hypothetical scenario.

A strong case against Adams can be made too. He had more of a track record than Thorn, much easier to pick at. Everybody knew his style of football. The win on the last day of the season elevated the club from 11th to 8th for a rather false sense of achievement. And Adams had a half-decent squad - he didn't do anything particularly impressive, did he?

If you want to make a case for Roland Nilsson, I'll be right on board. Context supports him.

What distinguishes Black from any other talented and able coach in the game for you is the fact that he was our manager once. That aside he has experience and skills in line with plenty of other equally valid candidates; what he achieved from December 2003 to April 2004 is the sole reason you mention him above any other such candidate. As I said though, we plainly won't agree so this is the last I'll say on it.

Yes. I don't see why this is a problem. Talented and able, as you say, and we have more (positive) information on him than anyone else. As I have said on this subject many, many times before - nobody should be begrudged for having a preferred manager, but to argue against a Black candidacy is utterly meritless.

cyril · Mar 8, 2013

I don't know how anyone can argue against your well thought out and open minded opinions.
You talk sense with no real bias. Based upon facts and beliefs, well put together and worthy reading

ricohman · Mar 8, 2013

If falkirk fail to agree compo will they give the job to black and say he was 1st choice all along

cyril · Mar 8, 2013

Bit like robins ?

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2013

superskyblue said:
In my experience as a Cov fan (season ticket holder since 97) the Black era was when we played our most free flowing, attacking football where we regularly took teams apart in style (at home). Admittedly I wasn't travelling away (bar one horrendous trip to Crewe.. on the same day Brian Lara scored 400* vs England.. bad day for me all round) but even so that era of supporting Cov is up there with following the Hadji/Chippo/Keane/McAllister side of 99/00.

I am however happy to support Pressley, just glad we've gone for a manager who isn't proven to be shite such as Phil Brown, Keith Curle etc.

Appreciate that SSB but fact remains it was a short spell a long time ago that people hark back to and use as the basis for wanting him. 'It happened 9 years ago so it might happen again' just doesn't wash with me.

SkyBlueCharlie · Mar 8, 2013

I fail to see why we are spending so much time discussing Black. No matter what you think of his tenure here or afterwards he's not coming, so let's talk about Pressley as it appears he is now our manager for the foreseeable future.

Ashdown1 · Mar 8, 2013

The Reverend Skyblue said:
Hill83, i think both me and cyril were underwhelmed yesterday, me in particular, but it won't affect our love and loyalty to the club.I've seen many managers in my time supporting Cov, some turn out good uns, and some are poor to crap, i hope and pray this appointment comes into the first bracket.
I was really excited about a Black appointment and to say I was disappointed was an understatement, but as you know in life a day later you can calm down and regather your thoughts and take stock.
I will, and i hope Cyril will, support the club whoever is in charge

I'm still underwhelmed, SISU have bought all his academy development rhetoric primarily because they can see a way of slashing costs to the bare minimum again. I accept we can't afford the likes of Wood and Sheff or any others on wages like they are supposed to earn but my gut feeling is that we are going to end up playing boys against men in a very physical league and paying a heavy price, all the time the club sinks and the hedge fund points the finger of blame elsewhere !!

Sick Boy · Mar 8, 2013

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Black went as Reid was a big name at the time so McGinnity went stupidly for him.

Didn't he ask Richard Keys for advice? :facepalm:

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 8, 2013

Sick Boy said:
Didn't he ask Richard Keys for advice? :facepalm:

That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

JimmyHillsbeard · Mar 8, 2013

he certainly did. As he did a couple of years late when gearing up to sack Adams. One of my favourite stories is of Geoffrey Robinson QC MP phoning Andy Gray to talk through post Adams options but reaching the wrong Andy Gray and speaking to the former Palace player who promptly told Mickeh that the club were about to sack him.

My original point was that there have been a million decisions made over the years at our club that we've never found out the truth about. Some of the energy (understandably) being spent on trying to get transparency from our current owners should have also been applied to the people who sold Highfield Road for instance.

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