Legal Argument (1 Viewer)

dongonzalos · Mar 22, 2013

Have SISU just created a legal argument to defer the case tomorrow.
One that is going to be cloudy enough that no points deduction will be granted until next season.
They get to see the season out and see what happens to us.
Be it here at the Ricoh or elsewhere. Till the end of the season.
No judge will be able to deal with this rubbish in one day.
They just needed to get past the end of March.

rob9872 · Mar 22, 2013

Eieieio up the football ere we go
When we get promoted this is what we'll sing
We love sisu we love sisu
Fisher is our king

dongonzalos · Mar 22, 2013

So ACL are saying SISU are not kicked out.
FA have confirmed nothing regarding moving grounds as of yet.

SISUnits seems as expected have created a delay to try and ensure points deduction happens next season

ACL wanted it this season so the administrator can negotiate a sale of the club more effectively.

If SISU appoint the administrator and the points deduction goes to next season.

How does that affect he sale of the club?

Or are SISU saying they don't have to sell the club as it itself is not in admin.

SuperCov · Mar 22, 2013

As I see it, it looks to me that SISU have kept/moved the issue (the rental/lease agreement) in the company that ACL have issued the administrative process against (CCFC Ltd). This is what I think they could argue. Apparently they have another ground to fulfill their fixtures. This is also how the club (as we know it) can still trade as normal as it's under the group (CCFC Holdings)

What we need to know is what company holds the Football League share.

I think we all know SISU won't go until they've got their investment back, if this somehow wipes off the debt and/or rental agreement surely "CCFC" will then look better to prospective buyers?

Play Up Sky Blues!

fernandopartridge · Mar 22, 2013

dongonzalos said:
so acl are saying sisu are not kicked out.
Fa have confirmed nothing regarding moving grounds as of yet.

Sisunits seems as expected have created a delay to try and ensure points deduction happens next season

acl wanted it this season so the administrator can negotiate a sale of the club more effectively.

If sisu appoint the administrator and the points deduction goes to next season.

How does that affect he sale of the club?

Or are sisu saying they don't have to sell the club as it itself is not in admin.

how many times. It isn't sisu who is kicked out. It's coventry city football club. You crank.

smouch1975 · Mar 22, 2013

Can this be titled "The Official SISU v ACL court day thread" ?

:lol:

wingy · Mar 22, 2013

SuperCov said:
As I see it, it looks to me that SISU have kept/moved the issue (the rental/lease agreement) in the company that ACL have issued the administrative process against (CCFC Ltd). This is what I think they could argue. Apparently they have another ground to fulfill their fixtures. This is also how the club (as we know it) can still trade as normal as it's under the group (CCFC Holdings)

What we need to know is what company holds the Football League share.

I think we all know SISU won't go until they've got their investment back, if this somehow wipes off the debt and/or rental agreement surely "CCFC" will then look better to prospective buyers?

Play Up Sky Blues!

What percentage of the fanbase will evapoporate if they move us out of the City,10-20-30%

Godiva · Mar 22, 2013

dongonzalos said:
SISUnits seems as expected have created a delay to try and ensure points deduction happens next season

No, they have ensured points deduction will happen this season (if at all) as the administration was effective as of yesterday.
Had they not done so but instead contested todays court case, then the points deduction would likely be effective next season. And if sisu didn't agree with any terms of sale achieved by the administrator, then another 15pt would be deducted next season almost ensuring relegation to league 2.

dongonzalos said:
ACL wanted it this season so the administrator can negotiate a sale of the club more effectively.

No, ACL wanted to force a sale. To force sisu out of town. As this would surely be against sisu's interests it would ultimately lead to the 15pt deduction.

dongonzalos said:
If SISU appoint the administrator and the points deduction goes to next season.
How does that affect he sale of the club?

Any points deduction will now happen this season.
The club will not be sold.

dongonzalos · Mar 22, 2013

Are they not arguing against a points deduction on the grounds that the football club are not in administration creating a technicality legal argument, leading to a delay in the hearing?

SuperCov · Mar 22, 2013

wingy said:
What percentage of the fanbase will evapoporate if they move us out of the City,10-20-30%

Impossible to answer, surely it would depend if the move is permanent ala MK Dons/AFC Wimbledon and/or where your allegiances lie?

Currently what percentage of fans come from outside of the city?

Play Up Sky Blues

Ashdown1 · Mar 22, 2013

Any points deduction will now happen this season.
The club will not be sold.................................This point alone and the implications of a hedge fund continuing to run a football club will be a major factor in revenue reduction next year and going forward. Whilst you and many others have done a fine job promoting them a significant amount of people will be gutted at the thought of another season of uncertainty !

Godiva · Mar 22, 2013

dongonzalos said:
Are they not arguing against a points deduction on the grounds that the football club are not in administration creating a technicality legal argument, leading to a delay in the hearing?

Sort of - they argue that it is not the club that is in administration, but a different branch of the group.

wingy · Mar 22, 2013

Godiva said:
Sort of - they argue that it is not the club that is in administration, but a different branch of the group.

Surely they can only lose that one ,everyman and his dog knows the structure over the previous 5yrs , CCFC LTD had the lease, League share and player registrations

dongonzalos · Mar 22, 2013

Godiva said:
Sort of - they argue that it is not the club that is in administration, but a different branch of the group.

So they have not ensured we are in a points deduction now then?

SonofErnie · Mar 22, 2013

That would be it for me, I'd abandon football completely. i'm already disillusioned with the direction the Premier League has taken the game. This would be the last straw.

SuperCov · Mar 22, 2013

wingy said:
Surely they can only lose that one ,everyman and his dog knows the structure over the previous 5yrs , CCFC LTD had the lease, League share and player registrations

But wasn't the administration hearing about unpaid rent? Not about points deductions.
All SISU have done is kept what's being disputed in CCFC Ltd and moved the "Club" to CCFC Holdings, so the club can continue to trade.

Play Up Sky Blues

Godiva · Mar 22, 2013

dongonzalos said:
So they have not ensured we are in a points deduction now then?

Had the ACL case gone ahead points deduction would be certain. As of now points deduction is only a possibility. Likely to happen, but not a sure thing - we don't know exactly how sisu/the club will argue their case or how it will be received by FL.

dongonzalos · Mar 22, 2013

SUSZu are doing as expected causing delays so any points deduction decision will also be delayed by the FA. Even though we will get one.

Also any administration action in relation to the football club gets delayed so they can see if we get promoted.

dongonzalos · Mar 22, 2013

Godiva said:
Had the ACL case gone ahead points deduction would be certain. As of now points deduction is only a possibility. Likely to happen, but not a sure thing - we don't know exactly how sisu/the club will argue their case or how it will be received by FL.

Exactly so as you stated above SISU have not ensured we have points deduction this season.
Which is what ACL were trying to do as it benefited the new buyers.
SISU as rightly so are looking after their own asses are trying their best to scupper all of that.
This though clearly is not in the best interests of Coventry City Football Club

fernandopartridge · Mar 22, 2013

dongonzalos said:
Exactly so as you stated above SISU have not ensured we have points deduction this season.
Which is what ACL were trying to do as it benefited the new buyers.
SISU as rightly so are looking after their own asses are trying their best to scupper all of that.
This though clearly is not in the best interests of Coventry City Football Club

Jesus wept. If ACL had put the club into administration there may well have been a deduction this season AND next. As coming out of administration would mean SISU accepting new owners, like they're going to do that.

You live in a dream world you crank.

dongonzalos · Mar 22, 2013

fernandopartridge said:
Jesus wept. If ACL had put the club into administration there may well have been a deduction this season AND next. As coming out of administration would mean SISU accepting new owners, like they're going to do that.

You live in a dream world you crank.

They would accept whatever is better for them financially. If bit got that that stage and they were forced to accept the new owners they would be financially worse for them.

Godiva · Mar 22, 2013

dongonzalos said:
Exactly so as you stated above SISU have not ensured we have points deduction this season.
Which is what ACL were trying to do as it benefited the new buyers.
SISU as rightly so are looking after their own asses are trying their best to scupper all of that.
This though clearly is not in the best interests of Coventry City Football Club

If points deduction is enforced (if!) then it will be on the basis that ccfc ltd is in administration, and the effective date is yesterday. So points deduction should be done this season.
But it is still possible that the club won't be penalized - don't underestimate sisu's lawyers. They know what they do.

Your core thinking seem to be that sisu want out. Have they ever said anything but they are here to stay? Yon need to at least consider the possibility and see their action in that light.
And if they are here to stay - and if they avoid points deduction - and if they succeed in securing the club is having access to all revenues created at the stadium the club plays .... wouldn't that be the best interest for the football club?

hill83 · Mar 22, 2013

Godiva said:
If points deduction is enforced (if!) then it will be on the basis that ccfc ltd is in administration, and the effective date is yesterday. So points deduction should be done this season.
But it is still possible that the club won't be penalized - don't underestimate sisu's lawyers. They know what they do.

Your core thinking seem to be that sisu want out. Have they ever said anything but they are here to stay? Yon need to at least consider the possibility and see their action in that light.
And if they are here to stay - and if they avoid points deduction - and if they succeed in securing the club is having access to all revenues created at the stadium the club plays .... wouldn't that be the best interest for the football club?

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 22, 2013

Godiva said:
Had the ACL case gone ahead points deduction would be certain. As of now points deduction is only a possibility. Likely to happen, but not a sure thing - we don't know exactly how sisu/the club will argue their case or how it will be received by FL.

Had SISU paid the rent - of a value not dissimilar to the 4-year contract extension they gifted David Bell - then administration, and any points deduction would have been an irrelevance. Then we could have concentrated on the play-offs, couldn't we?

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 22, 2013

Godiva said:
If points deduction is enforced (if!) then it will be on the basis that ccfc ltd is in administration, and the effective date is yesterday. So points deduction should be done this season.
But it is still possible that the club won't be penalized - don't underestimate sisu's lawyers. They know what they do.

Your core thinking seem to be that sisu want out. Have they ever said anything but they are here to stay? Yon need to at least consider the possibility and see their action in that light.
And if they are here to stay - and if they avoid points deduction - and if they succeed in securing the club is having access to all revenues created at the stadium the club plays .... wouldn't that be the best interest for the football club?

Everyone knows the latter; so don't patronise people.

The moot point being how SISU have gone about trying to secure stream they don't have a lawful right to.

They didn't at the time they bought the club. They don't now. The only way to secure them being via negotiation. Buying the Higgs shares, for example.

Not this way. It's not the end-game any of us doubt. It's the way SISU are trying to get there; not caring what, or whom they destroy en route

Godiva · Mar 22, 2013

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Had SISU paid the rent - of a value not dissimilar to the 4-year contract extension they gifted David Bell - then administration, and any points deduction would have been an irrelevance. Then we could have concentrated on the play-offs, couldn't we?

... and had ACL accepted the clubs initial request for a lower rent - then (to quote you) administration, and any points deduction would have been an irrelevance. Then we could have concentrated on the play-offs, couldn't we?

hill83 · Mar 22, 2013

I said this yesterday, and it's not something I would necessarily attempt myself but:

If Sisu paid up, there would be absolutely no reason for ACL to sit down with them and discuss anything at all. Money paid, piss off.
This has been taken far to far, but 'just paying up' doesn't work as a bargaining tool.

SkyBlueJohnso · Mar 22, 2013

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Had SISU paid the rent - of a value not dissimilar to the 4-year contract extension they gifted David Bell - then administration, and any points deduction would have been an irrelevance. Then we could have concentrated on the play-offs, couldn't we?

so it's David Bell's fault we're in Administration!!! never did rate him anyway

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 22, 2013

Godiva said:
... and had ACL accepted the clubs initial request for a lower rent - then (to quote you) administration, and any points deduction would have been an irrelevance. Then we could have concentrated on the play-offs, couldn't we?

No. Because when the lower rent was agreed; revenues became the 'biggest issue'. And therefater there would have been yet another issue

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 22, 2013

hill83 said:
I said this yesterday, and it's not something I would necessarily attempt myself but:

If Sisu paid up, there would be absolutely no reason for ACL to sit down with them and discuss anything at all. Money paid, piss off.
This has been taken far to far, but 'just paying up' doesn't work as a bargaining tool.

ACL compromised on rent and on matchday income. Some flexibility on the arrears would have been a sign from SISU that they were - equally - prepared to move. Think about it, the arrears are a function of two things. Value and term. The value was addressed, the sticking point was the term. The longer Fisher's been buggering about at Hinckley, Rushden and Diamonds, agreeing terms then to change his mind, offering mediation, looking at a new build somewhere else, etc - has been wasting time and increasing the accruals; the very problem that's now so insurmountable to to place us in administration

Godiva · Mar 22, 2013

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Everyone knows the latter; so don't patronise people.

The moot point being how SISU have gone about trying to secure stream they don't have a lawful right to.

They didn't at the time they bought the club. They don't now. The only way to secure them being via negotiation. Buying the Higgs shares, for example.

Not this way. It's not the end-game any of us doubt. It's the way SISU are trying to get there; not caring what, or whom they destroy en route

I am sorry, I have no intention of patronising anyone.

To buy the Higgs shares would require that Higgs and sisu agreed on the valuation. Higgs want £8-10m according tp PWKH (although they are willing to negotiate) and that would require the whole ACL to be around £16-20m worth. At the time they started to talk about a sale ACL were sort of distressed and certainly not worth that amount. Even after the CCC bailout it still isn't worth anything near that amount. If ccfc goes and play somewhere else ACL may even find it difficult to make a profit in 2-5 years time.
You can't expect anyone to buy anything for a lot more than it's worth - especially not a hedge fund.

torchomatic · Mar 22, 2013

No, it's just something MMM and Brighton trot out in every post.

SkyBlueJohnso said:
so it's David Bell's fault we're in Administration!!! never did rate him anyway

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 22, 2013

Godiva said:
I am sorry, I have no intention of patronising anyone.

To buy the Higgs shares would require that Higgs and sisu agreed on the valuation. Higgs want £8-10m according tp PWKH (although they are willing to negotiate) and that would require the whole ACL to be around £16-20m worth. At the time they started to talk about a sale ACL were sort of distressed and certainly not worth that amount. Even after the CCC bailout it still isn't worth anything near that amount. If ccfc goes and play somewhere else ACL may even find it difficult to make a profit in 2-5 years time.
You can't expect anyone to buy anything for a lot more than it's worth - especially not a hedge fund.

Forget the whole of ACL; you agree that Higgs were prepared to negotiate and cited £8 to £10m. Maybe £6m?

SISU got the club shares for free. Would the club shares plus half of the ACL and everything that went with it be bad business for that value?

And from that point, they would have had a springboard to begin negotiations with the council. Let's be frank, the council have been supportive of the venture in recent times. With an honest, candid and transparent SISU working in conjunction, as opposed to head-on, couldn't SISU have been the net beneficiary of this stance?

dongonzalos · Mar 22, 2013

Godiva said:
If points deduction is enforced (if!) then it will be on the basis that ccfc ltd is in administration, and the effective date is yesterday. So points deduction should be done this season.
But it is still possible that the club won't be penalized - don't underestimate sisu's lawyers. They know what they do.

Your core thinking seem to be that sisu want out. Have they ever said anything but they are here to stay? Yon need to at least consider the possibility and see their action in that light.
And if they are here to stay - and if they avoid points deduction - and if they succeed in securing the club is having access to all revenues created at the stadium the club plays .... wouldn't that be the best interest for the football club?

So you think SISU's long term plan is avoid a points deduction?
Get promotion?
Get all rights to match day revenue?

I think they will cause a delay in the points deduction. It maybe effective as of yesterday but will not be enforced until all arguments with the FAAre concluded.

Personally I believe SISU did this to try and take control of the situation.

Promotion maybe? What happens then?

The full access to match day revenue how are they going to achieve this?

In all honesty no I don't think their actions are for the best of Coventry City Football club. We will be the last thing in their agenda every now and then if something good comes out if it for us as a by product of their aim to recoup money then maybe.

Whereas the council and the Higgs charity actually have a genuine interest in Coventry City Football Club.

theferret · Mar 22, 2013

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
No. Because when the lower rent was agreed; revenues became the 'biggest issue'. And therefater there would have been yet another issue

This is something we don't know. Were SISU ever close to agreeing a deal, or were they just throwing up objections for the sake of it?

If it's the latter, I struggle to understand what their thought process was and where they thought this would all end.

My gut feeling was that there was a deal in there somewhere. I still maintain some pride needs to be swallowed, people need to put their dicks away and get back around the table. It's the only way out now that I can see, especially as ACL have ruled out eviction (I am glad they have, but it was a premature move on their part I feel).

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