Loans conundrum (1 Viewer)

Major Tom · Nov 12, 2024

Sounds like the rumour that DK didn't want any loans is not true. I do agree with statement that if you bring in quality loans they want to play and it's often mandated by the owning club/agent. This becomes a challenge when we are now spending £mil on our own players who do not want to sit on the bench either. You either need massive by in from the players or use a fluid rotation system which we don't have the luxury in squad size to implement.

On Sat we reverted to having U21s on the bench due to injuries and suspensions with a fit squad with loans who sits on the bench. I get the argument that most successful sides in the championship use loans .. so who would you drop to bring in a midfielder, striker or defender?

Briles · Nov 12, 2024

Major Tom said:
Sounds like the rumour that DK didn't want any loans is not true. I do agree with statement that if you bring in quality loans they want to play and it's often mandated by the owning club/agent. This becomes a challenge when we are now spending £mil on our own players who do not want to sit on the bench either. You either need massive by in from the players or use a fluid rotation system which we don't have the luxury in squad size to implement.

On Sat we reverted to having U21s on the bench due to injuries and suspensions with a fit squad with loans who sits on the bench. I get the argument that most successful sides in the championship use loans .. so who would you drop to bring in a midfielder, striker or defender?

Would really make sense to get a Loan CM in January

CovveeBreak · Nov 12, 2024

I'm definitely team "anti-loans" - but that is a dependency on the squad being complete enough to ride out injuries.

I don't think people understand how expensive loans are. A very primitive example:

Ben Doak from Liverpool on loan at Boro, vs Norman Bassette permanent signing from Caen.

Fee
Doak - No data, but let's be conservative at £500k
Norm - About £2m quid, or £500k for every year of his 4 year contract

Salary
Doak - £15k a week/£780k gross - but again, conservatively let's say Boro only cover 50% (£7.5k/£390k gross)
Norm - £5k a week/£260k gross

This makes Bassette not only cheaper, but also our own asset who will grow in value, and we know who can grow with the squad over more than just one season.

I like the idea of loans where you buy in someone of serious experience who you can't afford a transfer fee for, but those transfers come with huge salaries, which are the equivalent of our current transfer fees, so even more pointless.

I have absolute faith in our ability to source talent like Dovin, Torp, Bassette, and therefore don't see a need for loans.

TomRad85 · Nov 12, 2024

Major Tom said:
Sounds like the rumour that DK didn't want any loans is not true.

Another untrue rumour? Personally i am shocked by this.

rob9872 · Nov 12, 2024

5 letters isn't much of a conundrum. Is it SALON?

KenilworthSkyBlue · Nov 12, 2024

Major Tom said:
Sounds like the rumour that DK didn't want any loans is not true. I do agree with statement that if you bring in quality loans they want to play and it's often mandated by the owning club/agent. This becomes a challenge when we are now spending £mil on our own players who do not want to sit on the bench either. You either need massive by in from the players or use a fluid rotation system which we don't have the luxury in squad size to implement.

On Sat we reverted to having U21s on the bench due to injuries and suspensions with a fit squad with loans who sits on the bench. I get the argument that most successful sides in the championship use loans .. so who would you drop to bring in a midfielder, striker or defender?

It isn't true. Didn't Robins publicly come out and say the club were looking at loans throughout the window, including a couple on DD but they fell through for one reason or another.

Perennial Lurker · Nov 12, 2024

KenilworthSkyBlue said:
It isn't true. Didn't Robins publicly come out and say the club were looking at loans throughout the window, including a couple on DD but they fell through for one reason or another.

We had James McConnell lined up from Liverpool, plays midfield and is highly rated but he got a nasty injury

clint van damme · Nov 12, 2024

Can anyone confirm if the stat that no-one has ever got out of the Championship without a loan player is true or not?

rob9872 · Nov 12, 2024

clint van damme said:
Can anyone confirm if the stat that no-one has ever got out of the Championship without a loan player is true or not?

Pretty sure I've read that previously, but I think generally the relegated teams are expected to be at the top end and have decent budgets to help with the right loans from the right clubs. Certainly possible without imo, as its not quality young kids we're lacking. I maintain it's experienced leaders that we're lacking, but they no longer fit the required model.

Gosb · Nov 12, 2024

clint van damme said:
Can anyone confirm if the stat that no-one has ever got out of the Championship without a loan player is true or not?

My friend ChatGPT says

The club that managed to secure promotion out of the English Football Championship (the second tier of English football) without using any loan players in their squad during the 2022-2023 season was Sheffield United.

Under manager Paul Heckingbottom, the Blades achieved automatic promotion to the Premier League after finishing in second place. They did so without relying on loan signings, which was a remarkable achievement. The squad was primarily built from permanent signings, with a focus on homegrown talent and established players. This strategy set them apart from many other Championship clubs that often lean heavily on loan players to boost their squads.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Nov 12, 2024

Gosb said:
My friend ChatGPT says

The club that managed to secure promotion out of the English Football Championship (the second tier of English football) without using any loan players in their squad during the 2022-2023 season was Sheffield United.

Under manager Paul Heckingbottom, the Blades achieved automatic promotion to the Premier League after finishing in second place. They did so without relying on loan signings, which was a remarkable achievement. The squad was primarily built from permanent signings, with a focus on homegrown talent and established players. This strategy set them apart from many other Championship clubs that often lean heavily on loan players to boost their squads.

Good lord please don't reference Chat GPT as a source.

Think they had 3-4 loan players that season.

Fergusons_Beard · Nov 12, 2024

Tommy Doyle and James Mcatee for 2 in that Sheff Utd team Wolves and Man City

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Gosb · Nov 12, 2024

KenilworthSkyBlue said:
Good lord please don't reference Chat GPT as a source.

Think they had 3-4 loan players that season.

Loans in

[edit]

Date	Pos	Player	Loaned from	On loan until	Ref
4 July 2022	MF	Tommy Doyle	Manchester City	End of Season	[2]
13 July 2022	CB	Ciaran Clark	Newcastle United	End of Season	[3]
26 July 2022	AM	Reda Khadra	Brighton & Hove Albion	10 January 2023[a]	[4][5]
4 August 2022	AM	James McAtee	Manchester City	End of Season	[6]

Deity · Nov 12, 2024

I think we are ignoring the fact by championship standards we have spent a tonne of money on incoming players of our own.

Most teams don’t have that luxury and have to use loans to supplement their starting eleven.

Legia Sky Blue · Nov 12, 2024

clint van damme said:
Can anyone confirm if the stat that no-one has ever got out of the Championship without a loan player is true or not?

Is that promoted or relegated? Every club seems to have loan players these days so its probably both!

clint van damme · Nov 12, 2024

Deity said:
I think we are ignoring the fact by championship standards we have spent a tonne of money on incoming players of our own.

Most teams don’t have that luxury and have to use loans to supplement their starting eleven.

We're 7th biggest spenders this season and were 7th last season.
We've spent a lot especially by our standards but its not really an eye-watering amount by Championship standards.
The 6 teams who out spent us all have loans, admittedly 3 of them have just dame down.

Also, not all loans cost, some clubs continued to pay the loanees wages but the player has to play or the loani club pick up the tab.

I appreciate iate that Dan be problematic in itself.

Perennial Lurker · Nov 12, 2024

clint van damme said:
We're 7th biggest spenders this season and were 7th last season.
We've spent a lot especially by our standards but its not really an eye-watering amount by Championship standards.
The 6 teams who out spent us all have loans, admittedly 3 of them have just dame down.

Also, not all loans cost, some clubs continued to pay the loanees wages but the player has to play or the loani club pick up the tab.

I appreciate iate that Dan be problematic in itself.

Isn't our wage bill still one of the lowest though ?

clint van damme · Nov 12, 2024

Perennial Lurker said:
Isn't our wage bill still one of the lowest though ?

No idea mate

skybluecam · Nov 12, 2024

CovveeBreak said:
I'm definitely team "anti-loans" - but that is a dependency on the squad being complete enough to ride out injuries.

I don't think people understand how expensive loans are. A very primitive example:

Ben Doak from Liverpool on loan at Boro, vs Norman Bassette permanent signing from Caen.

Fee
Doak - No data, but let's be conservative at £500k
Norm - About £2m quid, or £500k for every year of his 4 year contract

Salary
Doak - £15k a week/£780k gross - but again, conservatively let's say Boro only cover 50% (£7.5k/£390k gross)
Norm - £5k a week/£260k gross

This makes Bassette not only cheaper, but also our own asset who will grow in value, and we know who can grow with the squad over more than just one season.

I like the idea of loans where you buy in someone of serious experience who you can't afford a transfer fee for, but those transfers come with huge salaries, which are the equivalent of our current transfer fees, so even more pointless.

I have absolute faith in our ability to source talent like Dovin, Torp, Bassette, and therefore don't see a need for loans.

£500k is not a "conservative" estimate at a loan fee for Doak. I don't think they would've paid one at all.

Bet Bassette is on more than 5k a week too.

Bassette's cost to us per season will be more than Doak's to Boro.

Mucca Mad Boys · Nov 12, 2024

skybluecam said:
£500k is not a "conservative" estimate at a loan fee for Doak. I don't think they would've paid one at all.

Bet Bassette is on more than 5k a week too.

Bassette's cost to us per season will be more than Doak's to Boro.

That’s over one season, we’ve got Bassette signed up for 4 years and the view is to develop him to make a profit on him. You can’t do that with loan players, we’ve got plenty of examples to draw upon.

CovveeBreak · Nov 12, 2024

skybluecam said:
£500k is not a "conservative" estimate at a loan fee for Doak. I don't think they would've paid one at all.

Bet Bassette is on more than 5k a week too.

Bassette's cost to us per season will be more than Doak's to Boro.

Congrats on missing the point though

skybluecam · Nov 12, 2024

CovveeBreak said:
Congrats on missing the point though

No, I totally get your point, and it's valid.

But Doak's loan is cheaper than Bassette's cost to us this season, and so far his output is considerably higher (700 mins, 4 G/A vs 200 mins, 0 G/A).

So Boro have arguably got a better player at a cheaper cost which is the argument for loans.

blunted · Nov 12, 2024

Vic, Callum and Ben were all loans with an option to buy in the latter case, so there are some bargains to be had. They all became permanent. Our recruitment with loans has been in the main good. No one would have complained if we had got past Luton in the play off final. If we had got to the Prem, pretty sure Doyle would have returned on loan and the others would have possibly been bought.
Though Austin achieved a MOBO (Master Of the Bleedin' Obvious) award for his answer to why we did not really get any loans. Duh, that's his job get in a player or players that will get us promoted. Forest virtually bought promotion with loanees.

PVA · Nov 12, 2024

Mucca Mad Boys said:
That’s over one season, we’ve got Bassette signed up for 4 years and the view is to develop him to make a profit on him. You can’t do that with loan players, we’ve got plenty of examples to draw upon.

Yeah but the purpose of a loan is totally different to a long term signing like Bassette. I think it's pretty pointless comparing costs.

Bassette is there to make a profit, Doak is there to get Boro promoted. You're paying more in a season than a Bassette for an instant impact. That's the gamble.

Mucca Mad Boys · Nov 12, 2024

PVA said:
Yeah but the purpose of a loan is totally different to a long term signing like Bassette. I think it's pretty pointless comparing costs.

Bassette is there to make a profit, Doak is there to get Boro promoted. You're paying more in a season than a Bassette for an instant impact. That's the gamble.

You are correct.

Listened to King and Austin last night should’ve given everyone an understanding of where we’re at in relation to our recruitment strategy.

Pre-2023/24, we relied on loans to make up the numbers where we’d have 4-6 loans every season. The scale of the rebuild is we’ve revamped our own squad with plenty of talented players that need developing. Therefore, any loans we do bring in need to be better than our existing options as the expectation is that they’ll be getting game time.

Now, the emphasis is on developing our squad and if anything, we need more experienced players rather than hotshot 19 year olds from the Prem.

Brylowes · Thursday at 9:55 AM

clint van damme said:
Also, not all loans cost, some clubs continued to pay the loanees wages but the player has to play or the loani club pick up the tab.

This is always the main worry with loans isn’t it, coaches under pressure to pick players ‘not based on form, ability or commitment.
Not saying loans are always a bad idea though.

Deity · Thursday at 10:01 AM

skybluecam said:
£500k is not a "conservative" estimate at a loan fee for Doak. I don't think they would've paid one at all.

Bet Bassette is on more than 5k a week too.

Bassette's cost to us per season will be more than Doak's to Boro.

I think that is wishful thinking Cam.

The best loans ( young or old ) always come with a loan fee and a % of their salary.

The greed of Premier league clubs means than 7 figure loan fees are not unusual.

I personally think their is a place for loans but i prefer them with a view to buy rather than purely for the players development.

Loaning out our players is also not quite where it should be, possibly because the players are not good enough,. But we have very few who we loan out, they blow the doors off and come back so much better than they left.

clint van damme · Thursday at 10:25 AM

Deity said:
The best loans ( young or old ) always come with a loan fee and a % of their salary.

This simply isn't true

Deity · Thursday at 10:37 AM

clint van damme said:
This simply isn't true

It really is.

Often that fee is linked to appearances. The more they play the less the club pays on the basis the player is getting the development the club want.

I’m not sure where you get your data from but mine is from a current championship CEO. I have no reason to believe he would mislead me.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Thursday at 10:52 AM

clint van damme said:
This simply isn't true

It is sadly. Most PL clubs now require loan fees for the best young talent they're looking to loan out. You'll get some exemptions but by large the loaning club will have to pay some kind of premium.

One of the best examples is probably Harry Wilson when he was at Liverpool. They made millions off farming him out to various clubs.

clint van damme · Thursday at 10:58 AM

Deity said:
It really is.

Often that fee is linked to appearances. The more they play the less the club pays on the basis the player is getting the development the club want.

I’m not sure where you get your data from but mine is from a current championship CEO. I have no reason to believe he would mislead me.

Yes, for some loans, I agree, but it's not true that it's the case for all loans.
There was a programme on 5live about it.
As I said above, some are free but with conditions which I admit in themselves could be problematic.

Another think that's worth remembering is that a club that's due a parachute payment getting promoted helps premiership clubs out financially as well so that plays into their thinking.

fernandopartridge · Thursday at 11:00 AM

KenilworthSkyBlue said:
Good lord please don't reference Chat GPT as a source.

Think they had 3-4 loan players that season.

They had the lad McAtee from Man City who scored that breakaway goal against us, in fact they had Tommy Doyle as well I think.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Thursday at 11:14 AM

fernandopartridge said:
They had the lad McAtee from Man City who scored that breakaway goal against us, in fact they had Tommy Doyle as well I think.

Yeah they did. From memory they signed Tommy Doyle around the same time as we signed Callum as that's the Doyle I thought we were getting.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Friday at 11:47 PM

KenilworthSkyBlue said:
It is sadly. Most PL clubs now require loan fees for the best young talent they're looking to loan out. You'll get some exemptions but by large the loaning club will have to pay some kind of premium.

One of the best examples is probably Harry Wilson when he was at Liverpool. They made millions off farming him out to various clubs.

I think loan fees (and even paying wages) should be banned and have to be covered by the parent club.

Make them think twice about just hoovering up talent from lower league clubs and also might put the players development front and centre of a loan.

I mean, a PL club could pick up a player for a pittance from a lower league club then all of a sudden they can charge more than that for a loan fee. It's a disgrace.

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