Loans: What are we getting wrong ? (1 Viewer)

Deity · Aug 29, 2024

It might be my memory but I’m struggling to remember a player that we have loaned out for a season and they have ripped it up and come back a much much better player.

I think Eccles is the last player I can recall being loaned out and going on to progress into the first team but that wasn’t due to his loan. He only featured 12 times and the loan was cut short.

Is this because we are not choosing the right loan clubs, our players are not good enough or something else ??

Ian1779 · Aug 29, 2024

Deity said:
It might be my memory but I’m struggling to remember a player that we have loaned out for a season and they have ripped it up and come back a much much better player.

I think Eccles is the last player I can recall being loaned out and going on to progress into the first team but that wasn’t due to his loan. He only featured 12 times and the loan was cut short.

Is this because we are not choosing the right loan clubs, our players are not good enough or something else ??

In reality we have moved from L2 to the top end of Championship in 5 years. It is so much harder now for any of our academy players to step up to our new standards.
Whilst we have had a thriving academy previously, it is not quite PL standard so maybe the best we can hope for is to try and develop youngsters to have solid Champ/L1 careers and every so often a gem comes through.
I don’t think there is an issue per se in where we send players.

Saddlebrains · Aug 29, 2024

Think @Deity has a point

We've always sent players on shit loans where they don't improve

It seems we just accept the first club that comes along. We all know for example, Obikwu (I know he's injured) Andrews and Dausch need a L1 loan to see if they can cut it and of course improve them

Why Howleys gone fucking Ayr I don't know, stinks of being released end of the season

Deity · Aug 29, 2024

The reason I ask is that if we are going to lose our best academy players to the big 6, and those we keep rarely go on to have hugely successful careers what is the value of the academy ??

AFCCOVENTRY · Aug 29, 2024

Look at our 1st team squad now as well. You’re going to have to be exceptional as a youth player to make it at our club now. I don’t think that pathway is there anymore. We dropped a few million on 19 year old Bassette for example.

AFCCOVENTRY · Aug 29, 2024

Deity said:
The reason I ask is that if we are going to lose our best academy players to the big 6, and those we keep rarely go on to have hugely successful careers what is the value of the academy ??

Can’t do anything about that. The big clubs take players from other Prem academies as well. We don’t have the same facilities as the top clubs to wow youngsters and their parents.

larry_david · Aug 29, 2024

Big believe in loaning out the youngsters to get first team footy at the right level.

Howley to Ayr is really disappointing on paper, as you say Saddle, it smells of him not progressing with us. If Swindon were interested and he's chosen Ayr Utd then I don't know why.

It's bloody annoying Justin got injured too. Northampton drew 2-2 away at Barnsley on Saturday. At his age, playing in that kind of match would be so beneficial to him.

Dausch looked really good in the highlights in pre season again someone, league 1 or 2 can't remember now. He was ripping them to pieces down the left. Surely a loan at league 1/2 is now the target.

As I said yesterday, u21s standard is lower than national league north.

clint van damme · Aug 29, 2024

The players aren't good enough, it's as simple as that.
That doesn't mean there aren't shit loans where the clubs don't do right by the player but good players will rise up.
Kane had some pretty uninspiring loan spells but he got there in the end.

ExpatSkyBlue · Aug 29, 2024

Agree with @Ian1779 - youth output is playing catch up with on field success, which is not surprising given how quickly we progressed. Output is not at a level we would need, but hopefully the improved on field success, the investment in the facilities and the seeming better recruitment can be building blocks for the future.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 29, 2024

Saddlebrains said:
Think @Deity has a point

We've always sent players on shit loans where they don't improve

It seems we just accept the first club that comes along. We all know for example, Obikwu (I know he's injured) Andrews and Dausch need a L1 loan to see if they can cut it and of course improve them

Why Howleys gone fucking Ayr I don't know, stinks of being released end of the season

I mean Ayr is a step down on Dundee where he went last season. Probably not since James Maddison has a loan to Scotland worked out for a youngster

Deity · Aug 29, 2024

@AFCCOVENTRY based on your both responses why do we have an academy then ?

Deity · Aug 29, 2024

I agree with this but for it to be true you can’t lose your very best assets aged 15 / 16/17 to the elite ….

Ian1779 · Aug 29, 2024

larry_david said:
Big believe in loaning out the youngsters to get first team footy at the right level.

Howley to Ayr is really disappointing on paper, as you say Saddle, it smells of him not progressing with us. If Swindon were interested and he's chosen Ayr Utd then I don't know why.

It's bloody annoying Justin got injured too. Northampton drew 2-2 away at Barnsley on Saturday. At his age, playing in that kind of match would be so beneficial to him.

Dausch looked really good in the highlights in pre season again someone, league 1 or 2 can't remember now. He was ripping them to pieces down the left. Surely a loan at league 1/2 is now the target.

As I said yesterday, u21s standard is lower than national league north.

Maybe in the case of Howley, there is an opportunity for some personal development. Away from home and will have to look after himself. Might make him as a young man, and then the football improvement might follow.

Ian1779 · Aug 29, 2024

Deity said:
I agree with this but for it to be true you can’t lose your very best assets aged 15 / 16/17 to the elite ….

Yet again the system is stacked in favour of big clubs. The compensation/fee arrangements are not fit for purpose anymore, so we don’t even get the financial recognition for spending the last 5 years brining him on.

Cally Fedora · Aug 29, 2024

It’s a fair point. If our academy is producing a mix of excellent talent that is hoovered up or those not to champ standard why have it. In the last couple of seasons we’ve not had anyone impact the first team.

Deity · Aug 29, 2024

I suspect when we get to the last 2-3 days of the window both the club and the player are less fussy over the quality of the club the player is going to.

I don‘t know the style of football Northampton or Ayr play but for loans like that to work it should really be similar to the type we wish to play, and compliment the style of the player.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 29, 2024

Cally Fedora said:
It’s a fair point. If our academy is producing a mix of excellent talent that is hoovered up or those not to champ standard why have it. In the last couple of seasons we’ve not had anyone impact the first team.

I suppose you maybe need to sell to these youngsters that if they’re prepared to wait a few years, they’ll be in the first team in the Championship and will get an even more lucrative move not long after.

clint van damme · Aug 29, 2024

larry_david said:
Big believe in loaning out the youngsters to get first team footy at the right level.

Howley to Ayr is really disappointing on paper, as you say Saddle, it smells of him not progressing with us. If Swindon were interested and he's chosen Ayr Utd then I don't know why.

It's bloody annoying Justin got injured too. Northampton drew 2-2 away at Barnsley on Saturday. At his age, playing in that kind of match would be so beneficial to him.

Dausch looked really good in the highlights in pre season again someone, league 1 or 2 can't remember now. He was ripping them to pieces down the left. Surely a loan at league 1/2 is now the target.

As I said yesterday, u21s standard is lower than national league north.

If Howley doesn't make it it won't be because he went to Ayr instead of Swindon.

chiefdave · Aug 29, 2024

Maybe the players just aren’t seen as good enough to attract attention from the type of clubs that would make it a ‘good’ loan

Perhaps clubs need to take a look at the under 23 setup. Not sure that’s been a big improvement on the old days of the reserve league.

Monty · Aug 29, 2024

The reason we need an academy is to meet the league rules. I will put them below, but the salient point is "Clubs need to name at least one club developed player in their matchday squad", at the moment that is Eccles, if Eccles is injured I expect Andrews, Obikwu, Dausch or Bell will be on the bench. No academy no club developed player..

Championship clubs can have squads of up to 25 players, of which a minimum of 8 need to be home grown, you're allowed an unlimited amount of under-21s on permanent contracts without registering them, but you would need to register any loanees among your 25 players, even if they're under-21s (Under 21' this season is very simply defined as 'any player born on or after January 1 2004').

For a player to be considered home grown by the EFL, they don't necessarily need to be British (they can be any nationality) or to have been trained by that specific club, to qualify as home grown is to have been registered with any club affiliated to the FA or the FA of Wales for at least three seasons or 36 months prior to their 21st birthday (or the end of the season they turn 21).

A club developed player is any player who was at the club for 'at least 12 months prior to the end of his Under 19 season'; basically, anyone who was signed to the club for at least a year as a teenager (even if they were out on loan).

Clubs need to name at least one club developed player in their matchday squad; if they don't, they must name one fewer player on their bench.

Deity · Aug 29, 2024

Monty said:
The reason we need an academy is to meet the league rules. I will put them below, but the salient point is "Clubs need to name at least one club developed player in their matchday squad", at the moment that is Eccles, if Eccles is injured I expect Andrews, Obikwu, Dausch or Bell will be on the bench. No academy no club developed player..

Championship clubs can have squads of up to 25 players, of which a minimum of 8 need to be home grown, you're allowed an unlimited amount of under-21s on permanent contracts without registering them, but you would need to register any loanees among your 25 players, even if they're under-21s (Under 21' this season is very simply defined as 'any player born on or after January 1 2004').

For a player to be considered home grown by the EFL, they don't necessarily need to be British (they can be any nationality) or to have been trained by that specific club, to qualify as home grown is to have been registered with any club affiliated to the FA or the FA of Wales for at least three seasons or 36 months prior to their 21st birthday (or the end of the season they turn 21).

A club developed player is any player who was at the club for 'at least 12 months prior to the end of his Under 19 season'; basically, anyone who was signed to the club for at least a year as a teenager (even if they were out on loan).

Clubs need to name at least one club developed player in their matchday squad; if they don't, they must name one fewer player on their bench.

A very good technical point but we could start the academy at under 15’s by cherry picking lg1 and 2 players and still comply ….

larry_david · Aug 29, 2024

clint van damme said:
If Howley doesn't make it it won't be because he went to Ayr instead of Swindon.

No I agree

larry_david · Aug 29, 2024

On Scott Brown: "The manager has enjoyed a top, top career and to play under someone like him is a massive factor for me. My contract runs until the end of this year at Coventry with an option for another year, so it's a big season for me.

He's also said his mate Rus convinced him and is ripping it up in that league

fatso · Aug 29, 2024

Deity said:
It might be my memory but I’m struggling to remember a player that we have loaned out for a season and they have ripped it up and come back a much much better player.

I think Eccles is the last player I can recall being loaned out and going on to progress into the first team but that wasn’t due to his loan. He only featured 12 times and the loan was cut short.

Is this because we are not choosing the right loan clubs, our players are not good enough or something else ??

I think Eccles was the last player who came through the ranks and made it to be a first team regular with us. (And some on here don't rate him)

In short our academy has been disapointing in recent years, you'd have to go back to the likes of Madderson to find someone who went all the way in the game.

The fact that we've just paid good money for a 19 year old striker, and taken a punt on a teenage winger from Australia, says our academy isn't producing the talent that the first team needs.

chiefdave · Aug 29, 2024

Monty said:
The reason we need an academy is to meet the league rules. I will put them below, but the salient point is "Clubs need to name at least one club developed player in their matchday squad"

Sure I’ve read about clubs who have binned off their academies. What do they do to meet the rules?

hamil99 · Aug 29, 2024

I've always been strong in favour of our academy. There are a lot of players throughout the footballing pyramid that have come through our doors, from the James Maddison's to the Ben Stevenson's. That is something to be proud of. But with how things have been going in the recent years, with more and more players being poached at a younger age (and not getting close to the first team), it's almost like what's the point?!? The FA should really consider their stance on this, because if lots of clubs start closing down their academy's so much young talent will be missed and never get a chance In the game..

shmmeee · Aug 29, 2024

Is it because mostly our academy products are shit and end up playing non-league?

SkyBlueMatt · Aug 29, 2024

You only have to look at the last couple of weeks. Losing prospects to both Man City and Chelsea.

Hopefully now we are an established Championship side, that will in turn improve the quantity of quality of prospects in our academy.

Joy Division · Aug 29, 2024

Whilst many are sneering at little old Ayr it's worth remembering we signed a player from them in 2019 who went on to be a regular in our first team and still a Championship regular now.

WestEndAgro · Aug 29, 2024

How much better than Oxford are we?
I believe that virtually every player in their squad came through the ranks.
No silly answers please

Torquay Sky Blue · Aug 29, 2024

Our academy can't be that bad if the likes of Man City and Chelsea are sniffing around

SAJ · Aug 29, 2024

Deity said:
The reason I ask is that if we are going to lose our best academy players to the big 6, and those we keep rarely go on to have hugely successful careers what is the value of the academy ??

The vast majority of academy players at all clubs don’t make it to a standard higher than Division 1 football. Eccles as our last player to make the gra is worth in today’s market several million. These kids being picked up by Man City, Man U and Chelsea earn us around £500k a time. Even those don’t make it. Charlie McCann great example bought off us as a 15 yr old playing international football at his age group. Where is he now? On the bench at FGR. That to me is good business. Plus we are required to have an academy. My nephew is on Forests books as an 8 year old, they have 6 teams at that age group. 1 may make it.

ccfcricoh · Aug 29, 2024

We're in the middle ground of having a first team squad that is too strong for youth players to work their way into... and equally, we havent got the luxury of having a youth team full of prospects who L1 and L2 teams are dying to get hold of.

wingy · Aug 29, 2024

SkyBlueMatt said:
You only have to look at the last couple of weeks. Losing prospects to both Man City and Chelsea.

Hopefully now we are an established Championship side, that will in turn improve the quantity of quality of prospects in our academy.

It won't change for several years IMO,lag,delay, we're not interested really ATM, just spending to get where we want to go,in the interim?

Loughborough Sky Blue · Aug 29, 2024

The facilities thing is a huge point. Despite the great work Doug has been doing to improve Ryton, you only need to take a look at Leicester's Seagrave facility to see the gulf between us, and historically Leicester are not much bigger than us as a club.

Loans: What are we getting wrong ? (1 Viewer)

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