Mark Robins is responsible for Hyam being sold (2 Viewers)

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 1, 2022

OK, so maybe a little bit of a clickbait headline but... hear me out

Major signings since we came up include:

Walker, Hamer, O'Hare, Sheaf (loan with view to permanent, so in this year) first season. All good really. OK, Walker hasn't worked out, but he was top scorer first season despite missing a spell with Covid, so he did contribute to us staying up. The other three have increased value.

The next season though, we shifted to a specific policy of gaining Championship experience. We got:

Gyokeres
Waghorn
Bidwell
Moore
Kane

Gyokeres is the only one of those who isn't signed for Championship experience, and he's the one who's seen his value increase. Bidwell has, this season, looked quality IMNSHO. The other three however? Only Moore is a qualified success, and that's solely down to a good start and first half of last season. The rest, he's been poor in my view.

So, they don't come cheap, and they drain wages and budget with their salry and who among them does Robins have confidence in? He'd rather player League One Dabo at RWB, WIlson (Wilson!!) comes in for Moore occasionally, Waghorn played last night due to a lack of numbers rather than being there on merit, really.

The policy of Championship experience plainly hasn't worked and, when itdoes such as Bidwell, it offers no or limited re-sale value.

It's the manager who diverged from our 'model' and it comes home to roost now.

Nick · Sep 1, 2022

Would also be down to the people doing scouting and recruitment.

torchomatic · Sep 1, 2022

Nick said:
Would also be down to the people doing scouting and recruitment.

Yeah, seems very hit and miss. How can the same team of scouts, etc get it so right with Hamer yet so wrong with the likes of Jobello, Kastaneer and Hilsner.

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 1, 2022

torchomatic said:
Yeah, seems very hit and miss. How can the same team of scouts, etc get it so right with Hamer yet so wrong with the likes of Jobello, Kastaneer and Hilsner.

Ultimately the manager's responsible at the end of the day. He'll also be responsible for the conscious strategy of going for Championship experience first and foremost. I'm not particularly worried about the trio you mentioned, as they all have a rationale for signing, and I can see far more clearly why they (and don't forget DaCosta!!) were signed. They were also signed for a level below, and Jobello looked OK at that level, and arguably we might have actually seen Hilssner if we'd stayed at that level. I'll also see you Kasteneer and raise you the second coming of Bright! On such moments are careers defined?

torchomatic · Sep 1, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
Ultimately the manager's responsible at the end of the day. He'll also be responsible for the conscious strategy of going for Championship experience first and foremost. I'm not particularly worried about the trio you mentioned, as they all have a rationale for signing, and I can see far more clearly why they (and don't forget DaCosta!!) were signed. They were also signed for a level below, and Jobello looked OK at that level, and arguably we might have actually seen Hilssner if we'd stayed at that level. I'll also see you Kasteneer and raise you the second coming of Bright! On such moments are careers defined?

All fair points. Out of the three I thought Jobello looked OK until his injury. Signed for that level on three year deals though, so presumably did we expect to stay at that level or did they *believe* that those players could develop enough to compete at a higher level?

How could I forget DaCosta!

SkyblueDad · Sep 1, 2022

We did challenge the top six for a lot of last season and yes it tailed off at the end but still had an outside chance. Lack of support by the owner didn’t help bit of dosh for a couple of decent loans could have helped I admit Robins can be a bit confusing with team selections & when to use his subs efficiently and with the five subs new rule he has to get that better.

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 1, 2022

torchomatic said:
All fair points. Out of the three I thought Jobello looked OK until his injury. Signed for that level on three year deals though, so presumably did we expect to stay at that level or did they *believe* that those players could develop enough to compete at a higher level?

How could I forget DaCosta!

Tbf being under contract allowed us to sell Stevenson and Bayliss at a value above their ability, while George Thomas at the end of his contract meant we got little. I get the contracts, even when it doesn't work out. Even Kane and Waghorn, I understand why they got the contracts they did. Plus players may well go elsewhere if offered shorter, and we really, really wanted them.

The Championship experience strategy has been a failure however

CCFC54321 · Sep 1, 2022

We have a core of players that are not contributing or have since they have been here. The recruitment is hit and miss and unfortunately if your playing with a small budget you can’t afford to have many or any misses.

Who do you blame?

KenilworthSkyBlue · Sep 1, 2022

Robins and Badlan have utilised our budget poorly since achieving promotion to the Championship really. Again something I pointed out last season but the feel-good factor of last season clearly glossed it over.

Contracts have been awarded to new and existing players that seemingly aren't deserving of them: Bright, Dacosta, Jones, Hilssner, Kelly and you could argue probably Allen as well as although he's a fine squad player the rush to award him a new deal was slightly bizarre.

There seems to be a growing obsession with bringing in Championship experience when really the budget could be better allocated elsewhere.

The only consistent success really has been in the loan market and from bringing in young PL castoffs. Not really sure why the club has deviated from that, or rather shifted their focus to another market, as the model now has zero structure and just seems to be: do the best you can with what little you have at your disposal.

Sky Blue Pete · Sep 1, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
OK, so maybe a little bit of a clickbait headline but... hear me out

Major signings since we came up include:

Walker, Hamer, O'Hare, Sheaf (loan with view to permanent, so in this year) first season. All good really. OK, Walker hasn't worked out, but he was top scorer first season despite missing a spell with Covid, so he did contribute to us staying up. The other three have increased value.

The next season though, we shifted to a specific policy of gaining Championship experience. We got:

Gyokeres
Waghorn
Bidwell
Moore
Kane

Gyokeres is the only one of those who isn't signed for Championship experience, and he's the one who's seen his value increase. Bidwell has, this season, looked quality IMNSHO. The other three however? Only Moore is a qualified success, and that's solely down to a good start and first half of last season. The rest, he's been poor in my view.

So, they don't come cheap, and they drain wages and budget with their salry and who among them does Robins have confidence in? He'd rather player League One Dabo at RWB, WIlson (Wilson!!) comes in for Moore occasionally, Waghorn played last night due to a lack of numbers rather than being there on merit, really.

The policy of Championship experience plainly hasn't worked and, when itdoes such as Bidwell, it offers no or limited re-sale value.

It's the manager who diverged from our 'model' and it comes home to roost now.

Fair premise there’s an alternative argument about moving up a level but that’s not worked either

chinamans view · Sep 1, 2022

last night preston were so bad in the first ten minutes any other team in championship would have really punished them, after that they got the better of us in the first half. The team this year so far has not played anywhere as good as last season, Robins had no money really this year to push on from last season and think he might as well have had enough here with us now and cant see himself being able to improve us, I think he may well think there is no future anymore.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Sep 1, 2022

Sky Blue Pete said:
Fair premise there’s an alternative argument about moving up a level but that’s not worked either

When you move up a level the model has to be adapted accordingly. In the first window following promotion you could argue the club was actually building the foundations to a sustainable model. Sheaf and O'Hare were brought in (PL castoffs), solid loans in Ostigard, McCallum and I'd even include Giles in that mix (PL talent) and a young European talent in Hamer. Hilssner and Dacosta were bizarre transfers, especially as both were offered long term deals.

But since then we've totally moved away from what I initially thought was a positive recruitment strategy, and now the club are increasingly bringing in or retaining players with zero resell value which is entirely unsustainable.

Frostie · Sep 1, 2022

torchomatic said:
Yeah, seems very hit and miss. How can the same team of scouts, etc get it so right with Hamer yet so wrong with the likes of Jobello, Kastaneer and Hilsner.

The smaller the budget the more risks you have to take.

Sick Boy · Sep 1, 2022

Unfortunately there have been too many signings that have literally contributed nothing - I dread to think how much money has been wasted over the last few seasons.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Sep 1, 2022

Frostie said:
The smaller the budget the more risks you have to take.

It's not even that though. Every transfer has its risks and that's exacerbated further with a lesser budget available but the risks taken in recent years seem erratic and aren't really all that calculated.

Great_Expectations · Sep 1, 2022

Yea I hate the signing Championship experience thing. It’s been an absolute waste of time and resource for us.

We need a few experienced heads (see the influence of McFadzean the last few years) but too many can lead to a team going through the motions, less passion or enthusiasm and ultimately for us as a club no saleable assets.

I would much prefer us to sign upcoming players from leagues below, but either it’s a definitive change of stance or it’s dictated by circumstance.

Of course the above is slightly tainted by our experience of signing the wrong ones.

Sky Blue Harry H · Sep 1, 2022

chinamans view said:
last night preston were so bad in the first ten minutes any other team in championship would have really punished them,

Yet none of the other 6 teams that had already played them had managed to do so in 90 minutes.

Things to fault last night, but we weren't awful. and the result could have gone either way (albeit thought Wilson was lucky to get away with a yellow)

Grendel · Sep 1, 2022

slowpoke said:
We did challenge the top six for a lot of last season and yes it tailed off at the end but still had an outside chance. Lack of support by the owner didn’t help bit of dosh for a couple of decent loans could have helped I admit Robins can be a bit confusing with team selections & when to use his subs efficiently and with the five subs new rule he has to get that better.

Our results in the first two months distorted the figures

The team were running out of steam for months. 11 wins now in 41 likely the be 43. In the last 23 - half a season - we have i think picked up 24 points

Sick Boy · Sep 1, 2022

Grendel said:
Our results in the first two months distorted the figures

The team were running out of steam for months. 11 wins now in 41 likely the be 43. In the last 23 - half a season - we have i think picked up 24 points

That’s relegation form, unfortunately.
Let’s hope the experts who wrote off most of the other teams in the league as dreadful and beneath us will be proven right.

Terry Gibson's perm · Sep 1, 2022

torchomatic said:
Yeah, seems very hit and miss. How can the same team of scouts, etc get it so right with Hamer yet so wrong with the likes of Jobello, Kastaneer and Hilsner.

I would think it’s easier to sign better players when you pay over a million for them compared to the pennies spent on the other ones.

Sky Blue Harry H · Sep 1, 2022

KenilworthSkyBlue said:
It's not even that though. Every transfer has its risks and that's exacerbated further with a lesser budget available but the risks taken in recent years seem erratic and aren't really all that calculated.

Yet have taken us from L2 to Championship. Either lucky or more likely have done really well, yet reached a plateau in terms of how competitive we can be. At that point, luck or otherwise can move you in one direction or another. Realistically the PL can only happen with new investment (or a shed load of luck) so maintaining a Championship place is a more likely ceiling.

Samo · Sep 1, 2022

chinamans view said:
last night preston were so bad in the first ten minutes any other team in championship would have really punished them, after that they got the better of us in the first half. The team this year so far has not played anywhere as good as last season, Robins had no money really this year to push on from last season and think he might as well have had enough here with us now and cant see himself being able to improve us, I think he may well think there is no future anymore.

The 5 teams to play them before us failed to record a single goal.

torchomatic · Sep 1, 2022

Terry Gibson's perm said:
I would think it’s easier to sign better players when you pay over a million for them compared to the pennies spent on the other ones.

True. It's not just about being better though. It's also about their attitude in the dressing room, their temperament, how they react to being dropped or not being in the team at all. Must be a bloody nightmare getting someone who fits in.

chiefdave · Sep 1, 2022

its a lot easier to bring prospects through or promise PL clubs their players will be in the side when you're in L1 / L2.

Realistically how many players we currently see in the U23s would we be happy coming into the side?

PL sides loaning championship quality players will want a significant fee and wages, not sure its the cheap option some people think.

There's no easy answer here without someone pumping money in.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Sep 1, 2022

Sky Blue Harry H said:
Yet have taken us from L2 to Championship. Either lucky or more likely have done really well, yet reached a plateau in terms of how competitive we can be. At that point, luck or otherwise can move you in one direction or another. Realistically the PL can only happen with new investment (or a shed load of luck) so maintaining a Championship place is a more likely ceiling.

I think you've missed the point. The model utilised in L2/L1 worked in those leagues, it doesn't in the Championship - I've explained this in detail regarding why in another thread.

Robins/Badlan semi-adapted this model but for some bizarre reason last season shifted their focus slightly to bringing in more Championship experience with no resale value when in reality it wasn't all that necessary nor productive to what the club really is trying to achieve - bring in for minimal outlay, develop and sell for profit.

Ashdown · Sep 1, 2022

Sky Blue Harry H said:
Yet none of the other 6 teams that had already played them had managed to do so in 90 minutes.

Things to fault last night, but we weren't awful. and the result could have gone either way (albeit thought Wilson was lucky to get away with a yellow)

We did have some chances for sure but we’ve lost the tempo and drive to our play, so many misplaced passes and so much predictability. We really are missing Ohare. Preston were pretty average as well.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Sep 1, 2022

chiefdave said:
its a lot easier to bring prospects through or promise PL clubs their players will be in the side when you're in L1 / L2.

Realistically how many players we currently see in the U23s would we be happy coming into the side?

PL sides loaning championship quality players will want a significant fee and wages, not sure its the cheap option some people think.

There's no easy answer here without someone pumping money in.

In the past three windows we've brought in Gyokeres, Sheaf, O'Hare for relatively little comparative to their sell-on value. There's a pool of talent available that the club could proactively capitalise upon, but I appreciate investment is needed in order to facilitate this.

I'd imagine we structure loans to ensure financial outlay is minimised. Needless to say loans that require loan fees or a sizeable wage split in the loaning club's favour quite obviously aren't going to be targeted.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Sep 1, 2022

Add in palmer and panzo.....ready to hit the ground running....sometime in 2023

SeaSeeEffCee · Sep 1, 2022

Compare us to Luton, another side with a smaller budget in this league, and look at how much better they’ve managed to utilise theirs.

Evo1883 · Sep 1, 2022

SeaSeeEffCee said:
Compare us to Luton, another side with a smaller budget in this league, and look at how much better they’ve managed to utilise theirs.

I suppose this is an argument right here as to why we need new owners .

I'm fed up of having to compare us to Luton Town

They have done remarkably well over several seasons granted

CCFCSteve · Sep 1, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
OK, so maybe a little bit of a clickbait headline but... hear me out

Major signings since we came up include:

Walker, Hamer, O'Hare, Sheaf (loan with view to permanent, so in this year) first season. All good really. OK, Walker hasn't worked out, but he was top scorer first season despite missing a spell with Covid, so he did contribute to us staying up. The other three have increased value.

The next season though, we shifted to a specific policy of gaining Championship experience. We got:

Gyokeres
Waghorn
Bidwell
Moore
Kane

Gyokeres is the only one of those who isn't signed for Championship experience, and he's the one who's seen his value increase. Bidwell has, this season, looked quality IMNSHO. The other three however? Only Moore is a qualified success, and that's solely down to a good start and first half of last season. The rest, he's been poor in my view.

So, they don't come cheap, and they drain wages and budget with their salry and who among them does Robins have confidence in? He'd rather player League One Dabo at RWB, WIlson (Wilson!!) comes in for Moore occasionally, Waghorn played last night due to a lack of numbers rather than being there on merit, really.

The policy of Championship experience plainly hasn't worked and, when itdoes such as Bidwell, it offers no or limited re-sale value.

It's the manager who diverged from our 'model' and it comes home to roost now.

Some fair points here and something I was thinking about the other day with regard to wages for Waghorn, Kane and Walker, all of which appeared totally out of favour with Robins…although Waghorn maybe back in now

Giving new contracts to Hamer and Ohare to protect their value was sensible. Both have performed well and have decent resale value so it makes sense. Some of the other contracts have been questionable

Playing devils advocate we have to take calculated gambles on players due to lack of cash available, however, Robins should be 100% in on players where big wages are committed and understand the ramifications of getting these calls wrong

Overall though the value of four players; Vik, Ohare, Hamer and Sheaf probably means the overall recruitment has been successful but those other mistakes have caused the cash flow issues

Grendel · Sep 1, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
Some fair points here and something I was thinking about the other day with regard to wages for Waghorn, Kane and Walker, all of which appeared totally out of favour with Robins…although Waghorn maybe back in now

Giving new contracts to Hamer and Ohare to protect their value was sensible. Both have performed well and have decent resale value so it makes sense. Some of the other contracts have been questionable

Playing devils advocate we have to take calculated gambles on players due to lack of cash available, however, Robins should be 100% in on players where big wages are committed and understand the ramifications of getting these calls wrong

Overall though the value of four players; Vik, Ohare, Hamer and Sheaf probably means the overall recruitment has been successful but those other mistakes have caused the cash flow issues

I doubt by January those players will be worth that much in a difficult window.

Boddy must have been reading the guff on here and over valuing players worth.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Sep 1, 2022

Grendel said:
I doubt by January those players will be worth that much in a difficult window.

Boddy must have been reading the guff on here and over valuing players worth.

Maybe not. But the January window is traditionally a sellers market and the club will inevitably be relying on that. It's a desperate strategy really.

Grendel · Sep 1, 2022

KenilworthSkyBlue said:
Maybe not. But the January window is traditionally a sellers market and the club will inevitably be relying on that. It's a desperate strategy really.

If Fulham really offered £5m for Hamer it’s criminal we didn’t take it. If a premier league club offered that why on earth did we think he was worth more.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Sep 1, 2022

Sick Boy said:
That’s relegation form, unfortunately.
Let’s hope the experts who wrote off most of the other teams in the league as dreadful and beneath us will be proven right.

Most of them have gone awfully quiet in the last two weeks or so, as have those who were constantly posting the 'Panic GIF'.

Our recruitment, in my view, has been questionable for a while. It makes me feel a bit less crazy that this is being noticed a bit more now.

Mark Robins is responsible for Hyam being sold (2 Viewers)

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