Mark Robins (1 Viewer)

Irish Sky Blue · Jan 19, 2020

Grendel said:
Promotion from the lowest league would have been an inevitability at some point - teams of our size don’t stay in that league for long. Wolves in the 80’s were on a similar downward slide but came up instantly even with desperate crowds that season

You can’t really compare ratios and stats in the lower di idioms to the managers who achieved less in the top flight

We were in desperate straits when Robins took over the second time. I think the third game of his second stint was at home to Southend. We lost 2-0 and I have never witnessed such an abject performance before and that is saying something considering how bad we have been at times over the years. The official attendance was 7k but was probably a lot less in reality as I think a lot of ST holders had given up. We were devoid of hope, passion or plan. We were obviously going down and I am sure that I wasn’t alone in thinking that we were more likely to drop out of the league than be promoted the following season. Your comment that promotion for us would be ‘automatic’ I think is deliberately dismissive of the transformation Robins has achieved.Think what the following season would have been like with a Slade, Venus or any of the other dead wood managers we have had over the years ( and who you seem to want to return to). He turned around a team that was heading towards the National League and gave us something we hadn’t experienced for years, success.

Irish Sky Blue · Jan 19, 2020

No one would take anything away from Sillett or Hill but Robins should be given the credit he deserves. When JH took over he transformed the club but he did so with the backing of a hugely supportive and wealthy chairman. Robbins gave Hill £35k, a massive amount in the early sixties, to buy a complete new forward line (5 players). We were playing in Coventry and there were no off field distractions to deflect or hinder. We had owners who supported him and who cared for the club.
The contrast to what Robins has had to put up with couldn’t be more stark.
Sillett was wonderful, JH was wonderful. If Robins achieves a second promotion in the circumstances in which he is working then I think he is fitting company for those two.
(My favourite manager is still Gordon Milne, he won nothing!).

Esoterica · Jan 19, 2020

Skybluefaz said:
Am I right in giving massive credit to Robins for developing what is a fairly unique system that is paying off big time at the minute. Obviously he deserves huge fucking credit. The question is, does anyone know of any other teams that use 3CB's, 2 wing backs, 2 holding midfield players, 2 10's and a striker? @Esoterica I imagine you'll know if anyone does

I think the inspiration for it, as others have suggested, has come from Viveash. Chelsea played it when they won the league in Conte's first season which also happened to be Viveash's last as U21 manager there. They had Matic and Kante as the DMs but they switched Fabregas into the position when they needed more creativity to play more of the Liam Walsh role. (In that context you can see the embryo forming with what we were trying to do with Bayliss last year, but Doyle was just not dynamic enough any more to make it work while Bayliss adapted). I wonder if the 4-2-3-1 was Robin's more conservative compromise or whether they felt they didn't have the players yet.

For Chelsea, with 2 out and out DMs in Matic and Kante, Pedro and Hazard then had immense freedom, more than our 10s are allowed, which will partially be down to quality of players in PL vs L1 too. Diego Costa was obviously more of a bully than Godden is but he occupies the defense through clever movement rather than being a brute.

The beauty of it is the fluidity it brings - I don't think I can remember as many teams forced to changing formation/shape against us as they have during matches since we moved to this formation.

Hullinho87 · Jan 20, 2020

I’s

Grendel said:
Promotion from the lowest league would have been an inevitability at some point - teams of our size don’t stay in that league for long. Wolves in the 80’s were on a similar downward slide but came up instantly even with desperate crowds that season

You can’t really compare ratios and stats in the lower di idioms to the managers who achieved less in the top flight

I would be interested to know the factual information behind this broad statement.

Assuming the debate of Robins’ being a great Coventry manager or one of the greats if he gets us promoted this season ..

Which teams have dropped to League 2 (or division 4) and then got promoted back to the division above and in what time frame? And then out of those how many got promoted within 2 seasons of that promotion?

Can’t be that many?

Grendel · Jan 20, 2020

Hullinho87 said:
I’s

I would be interested to know the factual information behind this broad statement.

Assuming the debate of Robins’ being a great Coventry manager or one of the greats if he gets us promoted this season ..

Which teams have dropped to League 2 (or division 4) and then got promoted back to the division above and in what time frame? And then out of those how many got promoted within 2 seasons of that promotion?

Can’t be that many?

There aren’t that many clubs of our size that have gone down that far. That’s the point.

Wolves and Sheffield Utd spring to mind and were instantly promoted back

Hullinho87 · Jan 20, 2020

Grendel said:
There aren’t that many clubs of our size that have gone down that far. That’s the point.

Wolves and Sheffield Utd spring to mind and were instantly promoted back

Both had relative stability at the club though right?
The “big club” perspective is much more relevant as a factor if the club leverages that as a whole to enable the manager to optimise the big fish in a small pond mentality..

.. MR surely/probably demands more credit in this respect and definitely more than it was just inevitable that we would go on a upward trajectory once we dropped to League 2.

skybluesam66 · Jan 20, 2020

Portsmouth spent 4 seasons down there . They were probably in as big a mess as we were
They have also had an extra season than us in League 1 , and you could argue that at least on the pitch we are at a similar level

Grendel · Jan 20, 2020

Hullinho87 said:
Both had relative stability at the club though right?
The “big club” perspective is much more relevant as a factor if the club leverages that as a whole to enable the manager to optimise the big fish in a small pond mentality..

.. MR surely/probably demands more credit in this respect and definitely more than it was just inevitable that we would go on a upward trajectory once we dropped to League 2.

Reletine stability? Wolves had plummeted under the Bhati brothers 3 relegations in a row and were seconds from receivership. They had no money and gates of 4,000. They may have taken two seasons actually - as they won the title and then I think were promoted again the next season so two in three seasons I think

Sheffield United were a big club and went in terminal decline in the 80’s but they I’m sure bounced straight back

Liquid Gold · Jan 20, 2020

Just like when some suggest he's shit and we start playing well now this has been bumped you can grantee form is going to drop.

Grendel · Jan 20, 2020

skybluesam66 said:
Portsmouth spent 4 seasons down there . They were probably in as big a mess as we were
They have also had an extra season than us in League 1 , and you could argue that at least on the pitch we are at a similar level

Portsmouth have been in the 4th division several times in their history and have had many bankruptcies - they have had as many years in recent times in the lower leagues as not I would think

Ring Of Steel · Jan 20, 2020

Grendel said:
Reletine stability? Wolves had plummeted under the Bhati brothers 3 relegations in a row and were seconds from receivership. They had no money and gates of 4,000. They may have taken two seasons actually - as they won the title and then I think were promoted again the next season so two in three seasons I think

Sheffield United were a big club and went in terminal decline in the 80’s but they I’m sure bounced straight back

wolves hit the bottom division in 86/87, took 16 years from there to get back; Sheff Utd hit division 4 in 81/82, took them 8 years to get back. Hardly “immediately” is it.

Grendel · Jan 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
wolves hit the bottom division in 86/87, took 16 years from there to get back; Sheff Utd hit division 4 in 81/82, took them 8 years to get back. Hardly “immediately” is it.

Er I meant immediate promotion back to the divisions above - not the top league

Londonccfcfan · Jan 20, 2020

Grendel said:
There aren’t that many clubs of our size that have gone down that far. That’s the point.

Wolves and Sheffield Utd spring to mind and were instantly promoted back

Burnley similar size to us..(historically much bigger) ..actually won alot more than us. Currently premier league.

They actually went 1st Division whole of 60s/70s to to 4th Division in about 12 seasons....spent 7 seasons in 4th tier in 80s/90s. Then back up leagues to where they are now.

Luton another club, probably alot smaller than us, went from premier league to National league. Now back up to championship from national league. A club on the up with new stadium.

Ring Of Steel · Jan 20, 2020

Grendel said:
Er I meant immediate promotion back to the divisions above - not the top league

In that case it took Wolves 6 years, off the back of massive investment by Jack Hayward who rebuilt the stadium & pumped millions into the team (£70m investment apparently, and this was 1990), and the discovery of Steve Bull who in this day and age would have been sold after 1 season.

Sheff Utd had Reg Brealey pumping money in (it didn't end well for him), and they also had Dave Bassett, the serial promotion winner.

Mark Robins is ahead of both- and he has no backing or LT investment plan, no ground, soon as he finds a player he is sold from underneath him, has no funds to buy, and he is operating in a world where the financial disparity between 'us and them' has never been bigger.

There is no metric or measure that you could possibly find that does not conclude that Mark Robins- assuming he keeps this progress up- is doing an unbelievable job in circumstances that no other manager of our club, and few other clubs have faced. It took the backing of Robins to help JH to do what he did, Sillett was a coach & when it came to buying he was suspect, if we go up then Mark Robins is truly on the Mount Rushmore of CCFC Managers with Jimmy Hill, John Sillett, Harry Storer, and there is a slight argument for Bobby Gould.

Grendel · Jan 20, 2020

Londonccfcfan said:
Burnley similar size to us..(historically much bigger) ..actually won alot more than us. Currently premier league.

They actually went 1st Division whole of 60s/70s to to 4th Division in about 12 seasons....spent 7 seasons in 4th tier in 80s/90s. Then back up leagues to where they are now.

Luton another club, probably alot smaller than us, went from premier league to National league. Now back up to championship from national league. A club on the up with new stadium.

Burnley hadn’t been a top flight club for over 40 years. They are a small town club that were only great in the 50’s.

They were virtually out of business in the 80’s no comparison.

Luton?

Grendel · Jan 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
In that case it took Wolves 6 years, off the back of massive investment by Jack Hayward who rebuilt the stadium & pumped millions into the team (£70m investment apparently, and this was 1990), and the discovery of Steve Bull who in this day and age would have been sold after 1 season.

Sheff Utd had Reg Brealey pumping money in (it didn't end well for him), and they also had Dave Bassett, the serial promotion winner.

Mark Robins is ahead of both- and he has no backing or LT investment plan, no ground, soon as he finds a player he is sold from underneath him, has no funds to buy, and he is operating in a world where the financial disparity between 'us and them' has never been bigger.

There is no metric or measure that you could possibly find that does not conclude that Mark Robins- assuming he keeps this progress up- is doing an unbelievable job in circumstances that no other manager of our club, and few other clubs have faced. It took the backing of Robins to help JH to do what he did, Sillett was a coach & when it came to buying he was suspect, if we go up then Mark Robins is truly on the Mount Rushmore of CCFC Managers with Jimmy Hill, John Sillett, Harry Storer, and there is a slight argument for Bobby Gould.

Robins has been backed by these owners more than any since Coleman. Why that is I have no idea but no one can argue he’s not operating in the best set up at the club for a decade

Wolves were promoted twice in three years under Turner and won the league cup before Hayward took over so I’m not sure what you are talking about

Londonccfcfan · Jan 20, 2020

Grendel said:
Burnley hadn’t been a top flight club for over 40 years. They are a small town club that were only great in the 50’s.

They were virtually out of business in the 80’s no comparison.

Luton?

Lol a small town club thats been great?
Fact is they were great club 60s and 70s.

Your point was that clubs from top flight dont usualy drop that low and of they do they come back up immediately.

I gave you an example of a club with great tradition history ( bigger than us in every way shape and form)

Founder members of football league.
Won all 4 divisions. Wolves only other club.
Currently in a different stratosphere compared to us.

Wtf u on about, they dropped down into league 2 and stayed there for whaterever reasons for 7 seasons. Eventually getting back to where they deserve to be. Lol for a small town club. Thats got football history built into its dna.

Yes there is no comparison.

Ring Of Steel · Jan 20, 2020

Grendel said:
Portsmouth have been in the 4th division several times in their history and have had many bankruptcies - they have had as many years in recent times in the lower leagues as not I would think

Before their current mess, Portsmouth had one period in the fourth division in their entire history- a period of two seasons in 1979 and 1980. Took them 4 years to get back to the old second division.

Grendel said:
Robins has been backed by these owners more than any since Coleman. Why that is I have no idea but no one can argue he’s not operating in the best set up at the club for a decade

Wolves were promoted twice in three years under Turner and won the league cup before Hayward took over so I’m not sure what you are talking about

"In 1986 a local developer paid off all Wolves' outstanding debts"- thus removing all financial constraints. And Hayward was funding even before he bought the club, he took over formally when he saw the chance to redevelop the ground. And they had Steve Bull, he'd last about 4 games if he was playing for us before he was sold to someones youth team to sit on the bench.

Grendel · Jan 20, 2020

Londonccfcfan said:
Lol a small town club thats been great?
Fact is they were great club 60s and 70s.

Your point was that clubs from top flight dont usualy drop that low and of they do they come back up immediately.

I gave you an example of a club with great tradition history ( bigger than us in every way shape and form)

Founder members of football league.
Won all 4 divisions. Wolves only other club.
Currently in a different stratosphere compared to us.

Wtf u on about, they dropped down into league 2 and stayed there for whaterever reasons for 7 seasons. Eventually getting back to where they deserve to be. Lol for a small town club. Thats got football history built into its dna.

Yes there is no comparison.

So notts county are a bigger club than us by your argument as obviously are Blackpool and Preston?

Grendel · Jan 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Before their current mess, Portsmouth had one period in the fourth division in their entire history- a period of two seasons in 1979 and 1980. Took them 4 years to get back to the old second division.

"In 1986 a local developer paid off all Wolves' outstanding debts"- thus removing all financial constraints. And Hayward was funding even before he bought the club, he took over formally when he saw the chance to redevelop the ground. And they had Steve Bull, he'd last about 4 games if he was playing for us before he was sold to someones youth team to sit on the bench.

We had Mcnulty - did he get sold after 4 games?

Londonccfcfan · Jan 20, 2020

Grendel said:
So notts county are a bigger club than us by your argument as obviously are Blackpool and Preston?

Its not all about a great history. Yes those clubs were great.
Its about the here and now also.
Where are Burnley? Just finished finished playing European football.

Not playing FA trophy.

SlowerThanPlatt · Jan 20, 2020

I am not sure you can say Robins hasn’t been backed. The £750k on Godden is the most we’ve spent on a player since Eastwood I think?

Cody McDonald was 500k. Clingan 700k, Cranie 500k.

Ring Of Steel · Jan 20, 2020

Londonccfcfan said:
Lol a small town club thats been great?
Fact is they were great club 60s and 70s.

Your point was that clubs from top flight dont usualy drop that low and of they do they come back up immediately.

I gave you an example of a club with great tradition history ( bigger than us in every way shape and form)

Founder members of football league.
Won all 4 divisions. Wolves only other club.
Currently in a different stratosphere compared to us.

Wtf u on about, they dropped down into league 2 and stayed there for whaterever reasons for 7 seasons. Eventually getting back to where they deserve to be. Lol for a small town club. Thats got football history built into its dna.

Yes there is no comparison.

Once again the "history v fanbase" debate. To be a big club you need both.

In the 94 seasons when Burnley and CCFC have both been in existence, Burnley have had bigger crowds than us on 38 occasions, of which 7 are since we imploded. We have had higher gates than Burnley on 56 occasions. The highest they have ever averaged is 33k, the highest we have averaged is 35k. Their all time avergae crowd is 13k, ours is 17k. There is no way anyone can state with any factual basis that Burnley are a better supported club than us, and don't give me the "its only a small town" garbage, otherwise Bournemouth are much bigger than Everton, you do realise people from outside the town aren't banned from attending don't you? And they founded the league- what does that prove?

Burnley have it on honours, we have it on fanbase. If you're going down this road then Preston are giants of the game.

SlowerThanPlatt · Jan 20, 2020

The only fee we spent in L1 before Robins arrived were £25,000 for Vincelot and a rumoured £100,000 for Jones and Turnbull.

Robins has done well but let’s not make out he’s done it on a shoestring - he’s been well backed

Joy Division · Jan 20, 2020

Grendel said:
We had Mcnulty - did he get sold after 4 games?

I don't think you'd have found a club to take him after his first 4 games for us.

Magwitch · Jan 20, 2020

Run properly any club in England can progress through the leagues, Bournemouth are the classic example and I know some will say they have sugar daddy owners but they still have to be run right we unfortunately are the opposite and are doing well thanks to Robins management but despite sisu who are happy to lose around £200000 per home games

Londonccfcfan · Jan 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Once again the "history v fanbase" debate. To be a big club you need both.

In the 94 seasons when Burnley and CCFC have both been in existence, Burnley have had bigger crowds than us on 38 occasions, of which 7 are since we imploded. We have had higher gates than Burnley on 56 occasions. The highest they have ever averaged is 33k, the highest we have averaged is 35k. Their all time avergae crowd is 13k, ours is 17k. There is no way anyone can state with any factual basis that Burnley are a better supported club than us, and don't give me the "its only a small town" garbage, otherwise Bournemouth are much bigger than Everton, you do realise people from outside the town aren't banned from attending don't you? And they founded the league- what does that prove?

Burnley have it on honours, we have it on fanbase. If you're going down this road then Preston are giants of the game.

Yes i get that.
Tbf they have been restricted by size of stadium for all those years.
Burnley held the record attendance at Wembley for checkatrade trophy untill last year.

They can still pull in big crowds also sell out wembley allocations.

Fact remains at the moment we are pretty much light years away from them. The gap is widening year on year.

SlowerThanPlatt · Jan 20, 2020

Magwitch said:
Run properly any club in England can progress through the leagues, Bournemouth are the classic example and I know some will say they have sugar daddy owners but they still have to be run right we unfortunately are the opposite and are doing well thanks to Robins management but despite sisu who are happy to lose around £200000 per home games

Yes just apart from the very rich owners. That little thing

They made £38 million losses just in the Championship and had to pay a fine

Ring Of Steel · Jan 20, 2020

SlowerThanPlatt said:
I am not sure you can say Robins hasn’t been backed. The £750k on Godden is the most we’ve spent on a player since Eastwood I think?

Cody McDonald was 500k. Clingan 700k, Cranie 500k.

I am not sure what relevance this has with anything seeing as Robins did not sign any of McDonald, Clingan & Cranie? Clingan & Cranie had gone before Robins even arrived.

Do you want to compare the people Robins had to let go with that £750k? He cost less than half of what we got for Tom Bayliss btw- there has never been a season where Robins has spent more than he's made.

Coventry City - Transfers 18/19

Take a look and then tell me this isn't a guy that knows exactly what he's doing.

SlowerThanPlatt · Jan 20, 2020

Bournemouth’s wage bill in the year they got promoted was £30m

Ours is believed to be around 10% of that

SlowerThanPlatt · Jan 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
I am not sure what relevance this has with anything seeing as Robins did not sign any of McDonald, Clingan & Cranie? Clingan & Cranie had gone before Robins even arrived.

Do you want to compare the people Robins had to let go with that £750k? He cost less than half of what we got for Tom Bayliss btw- there has never been a season where Robins has spent more than he's made.

Coventry City - Transfers 18/19

Take a look and then tell me this isn't a guy that knows exactly what he's doing.

The point is we have sold players before and the manager hasn’t had the money to go out and sign players to improve the team.

We sold Maddison for £2.5m - how much did Mowbray get of that?

We sold Wilson for £3m and Leon Clarke for £750,000 - how much did Pressley get of that? Pressley signings the next season were all free agents

Ring Of Steel · Jan 20, 2020

Londonccfcfan said:
Yes i get that.
Tbf they have been restricted by size of stadium for all those years.
Burnley held the record attendance at Wembley for checkatrade trophy untill last year.

They can still pull in big crowds also sell out wembley allocations.

Fact remains at the moment we are pretty much light years away from them. The gap is widening year on year.

Not true- if they had the demand they would build on. But you can google yourself- they cannot sell out what they have even now, and its only 22k or so. They do not have the demand to have a ground bigger than Turf Moor.

Put it like this- if we got into the Prem then there are some clubs that no matter what we'd be miles behind, we will never be a Suprs, Everton, Villa.

There are some clubs that, if we got promoted, then we'd comfortably be as big as them and fit in no problem at leats in terms of support- I'm talking Bournemouth obviously (and no disrespect to my 2nd team!), Palace, Southampton, Brighton, Burnley and others. We are not a huge club, but we are not a small club either, we're in that kind of upper middle bracket but we are just starting to come out of a historic low ebb, and our "natural position" is probably upper Championship to mid table Prem in a good year. History shows it.

shmmeee · Jan 20, 2020

SlowerThanPlatt said:
The only fee we spent in L1 before Robins arrived were £25,000 for Vincelot and a rumoured £100,000 for Jones and Turnbull.

Robins has done well but let’s not make out he’s done it on a shoestring - he’s been well backed

Weve sold Wilson, Maddison, Bayliss, Chaplin, etc for decent sums though. Net spend is probably as low as anyone else since relegation.

Edit: just seen your post. I think we’re on the same page.

Ring Of Steel · Jan 20, 2020

T

SlowerThanPlatt said:
The point is we have sold players before and the manager hasn’t had the money to go out and sign players to improve the team.

We sold Maddison for £2.5m - how much did Mowbray get of that?

We sold Wilson for £3m and Leon Clarke for £750,000 - how much did Pressley get of that? Pressley signings the next season were all free agents

You are proving my point. Mowbray failed, so did Pressley. Robins is flourishing- and he has no ground and half the regular income they did.

SlowerThanPlatt · Jan 20, 2020

shmmeee said:
Weve sold Wilson, Maddison, Bayliss, Chaplin, etc for decent sums though. Net spend is probably as low as anyone else since relegation.

We sold Maddison under Mowbray and Wilson under Pressley

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