Measuring The Tories (1 Viewer)

SkyBlueCharlie9 · Dec 16, 2019

OK so how against what criteria should we measure the success of the new government over next 5 years ...Here's a few for we need starters that I think we need to hold them accountable for....based on Brexit claims and their soundbites/manifesto....it might include....
1 Number of nurses/ doctors increased NHS £350m a week investment increase! ( based on infamous Bus slogan)
2.Number of policemen/women gained on 2010 figures.
3. Off shore tax haven reduction
4. Increase in corporate tax rates
5 Increase in affordable homes built
6 Reduction in food banks
7 New schools/education investment
8 Grassroots sport investment
9 Reduction in utility bills
10.I in green industries
11. More skilled colleges vocational subjects
12. Stop sale of arms to any dodgy governments
13. Investment in care homes, and support for home carers.
14. Properly funded local services/ Council's
15 Investment in buses, cycling, trains
16. A proper Economic Vision for each and every region!!!!
17. Immigration- based on a thorough understanding of all economic contributions to the emigrants make to .
the economy.
18 Stronger human rights act.
19 Higher food advertisement standards.
20 Tackleorganised crime ,drugs, sex trafficing, all forms of exploitation.
Will probably be more....

robbiekeane · Dec 16, 2019

Economic growth. Deficit and national debt level. How we end up after this shit show brexit (future trade deals, etc).

Distribution of wealth

Otis · Dec 16, 2019

Well, if we measure them right now, like em or not, you would have to say ten feet tall.

In five years time? Hopefully 3 ft 7.

Nick · Dec 16, 2019

OffenhamSkyBlue · Dec 16, 2019

You want a "reduction in food banks"? How is that going to help, exactly? Maybe you mean a reduction in the NEED for people to use food banks, which is admirable, but how would it be achieved? You could argue that an increase in the minimum wage would cure the problem, but that is just as likely to lead to a reduction in the number of staff (particularly small) businesses can afford to employ, thus causing higher unemployment and closure of small businesses. An increase in benefits, perhaps? But certainly the way Universal Credit is paid initially could be done better.
Just what do you think is wrong with the existing Human Rights Act that makes you think it needs to be stronger?

And I'm sorry to be picky (see the "Things that annoy you" thread), but it's "Tories", OK?

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

It’s a pretty silly thread as people judge things very simply. They tend to look at their own lives and if they are comfortable with that they tend to stay with what they have.

More relevant as well is how they judge the opposition - labour are under the delusion that their policies were a hit and will try and stitch the election with a left wing. Leader

Remember thatcher had 3 terms in office and the opposition never had as few seats as they do now

OffenhamSkyBlue · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
It’s a pretty silly thread as people judge things very simply. They tend to look at their own lives and if they are comfortable with that they tend to stay with what they have.

More relevant as well is how they judge the opposition - labour are under the delusion that their policies were a hit and will try and stitch the election with a left wing. Leader

Remember thatcher had 3 terms in office and the opposition never had as few seats as they do now

... including the unlikeliest of wins in 1983 when Foot was Labour leader. Gerald Kaufman described the Labour manifesto then as "the longest suicide note in history"!

fatso · Dec 16, 2019

SkyBlueCharlie9 said:
OK so how against what criteria should we measure the success of the new government over next 5 years ...Here's a few for we need starters that I think we need to hold them accountable for....based on Brexit claims and their soundbites/manifesto....it might include....
1 Number of nurses/ doctors increased NHS £350m a week investment increase! ( based on infamous Bus slogan)
2.Number of policemen/women gained on 2010 figures.
3. Off shore tax haven reduction
4. Increase in corporate tax rates
5 Increase in affordable homes built
6 Reduction in food banks
7 New schools/education investment
8 Grassroots sport investment
9 Reduction in utility bills
10.I in green industries
11. More skilled colleges vocational subjects
12. Stop sale of arms to any dodgy governments
13. Investment in care homes, and support for home carers.
14. Properly funded local services/ Council's
15 Investment in buses, cycling, trains
16. A proper Economic Vision for each and every region!!!!
17. Immigration- based on a thorough understanding of all economic contributions to the emigrants make to .
the economy.
18 Stronger human rights act.
19 Higher food advertisement standards.
20 Tackleorganised crime ,drugs, sex trafficing, all forms of exploitation.
Will probably be more....

Probably best to view the achievements in 10 to 15 years, as labour wont be in a position to challenge for at least that long.

fatso · Dec 16, 2019

Otis said:
Well, if we measure them right now, like em or not, you would have to say ten feet tall.

In five years time? Hopefully 3 ft 7.

Why hopefully? Surely you would want the country to thrive and improve for all wouldn’t you? It doesn’t matter which political party achieves the improvements as long as they happen.
For some people, following a political party has become like supporting a football team, which is totally crazy.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 16, 2019

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
... including the unlikeliest of wins in 1983 when Foot was Labour leader. Gerald Kaufman described the Labour manifesto then as "the longest suicide note in history"!

Helped by a war, mind you.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
Helped by a war, mind you.

Yes an internal war in labour which lasted for years to come

OffenhamSkyBlue · Dec 16, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
Helped by a war, mind you.

Well, there was that as well!
And then the Labour Party had a knee-jerk reaction to Foot's Marxist unpopularity by appointing total jerk Kinnock, who then went and lost even more heavily in 1987, just after the miners' strike! You couldn't make it up!

clint van damme · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
It’s a pretty silly thread as people judge things very simply. They tend to look at their own lives and if they are comfortable with that they tend to stay with what they have.

More relevant as well is how they judge the opposition - labour are under the delusion that their policies were a hit and will try and stitch the election with a left wing. Leader

Remember thatcher had 3 terms in office and the opposition never had as few seats as they do now

Listening to activists and analysis over the last couple of days on 5live a fair few have said they got good feedback on the doorsteps about policy but people didn't think Corbyn was capable of delivering.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
Listening to activists and analysis over the last couple of days on 5live a fair few have said they got good feedback on the doorsteps about policy but people didn't think Corbyn was capable of delivering.

How convenient

That tweet who founded momentum says people need to their change opinions - that dimwit Ash Arkar was muttering the same. People essentially are stupid and we are clever - that selective posh Grammar school didn’t teach her well

clint van damme · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
How convenient

That tweet who founded momentum says people need to their change opinions - that dimwit Ash Arkar was muttering the same. People essentially are stupid and we are clever - that selective posh Grammar school didn’t teach her well

This was a variety of people. Antedòtal evidence admittedly. I don't think a lot of momentum members would say a word against Corbyn anyway.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
This was a variety of people. Antedòtal evidence admittedly. I don't think a lot of momentum members would say a word against Corbyn anyway.

Well if Labour really believe they won the policy argument prepare for another decade of Tory rule

It’s about time the MPs showed backbone and ended this fiasco

clint van damme · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
Well if Labour really believe they won the policy argument prepare for another decade of Tory rule

It’s about time the MPs showed backbone and ended this fiasco

Some of their policies must be decent- the Tories have copied them!

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
Well if Labour really believe they won the policy argument prepare for another decade of Tory rule

It’s about time the MPs showed backbone and ended this fiasco

Not winning the policy argument can mean two things however. Either you need different policy, or you need a better argument.

Johnson has just won by repeating May's campaign with a worse hairstyle and being more pro-fridge, after all!

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
Not winning the policy argument can mean two things however. Either you need different policy, or you need a better argument.

Johnson has just won by repeating May's campaign with a worse hairstyle and being more pro-fridge, after all!

The public at large are liberal / moderate conservative - they do not like socialism in any form. Kid yourself they do and you will just get more and more disappointed

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
The public at large are liberal / moderate conservative - they do not like socialism in any form. Kid yourself they do and you will just get more and more disappointed

Generally progressive parties get more votes at elections than right-leaning ones, it's more that the vote is more split.

It shows just how mental this country has become that when it's advocated spending less as a proportion of GDP than Germany is seen as loony left, and it's loony left to want our own state to run certain services, rather than a foreign country's.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
Generally progressive parties get more votes at elections than right-leaning ones, it's more that the vote is more split.

It shows just how mental this country has become that when it's advocated spending less as a proportion of GDP than Germany is seen as loony left, and it's loony left to want our own state to run certain services, rather than a foreign country's.

Well get used to another decade or more of Tory rule then until your party grows up

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
Well get used to another decade or more of Tory rule then until your party grows up

What they need to do is learn the broad erroneous generalisations and keep parroting them until people believe them.

You're good at that, want a job?

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
What they need to do is learn the broad erroneous generalisations and keep parroting them until people believe them.

You're good at that, want a job?

No they need to learn that despises socialism and either live with it or become a fringe sixth form debating society - we won’t be renationalising anything, we won’t be denying people to spend their hard earned money on their children’s education, we won’t be hiking up company tax levels to ensure outward investment becomes a thing of the past, we wont be forcing companies to surrender shares to the state

These are the politics of the Jurassic era and no one wants them

Labour will become a tiny protest group that in the future people will deride and laugh at unless it identifies with what people want

SkyBlueCharlie9 · Dec 16, 2019

Will amend title thanks OSB :inpain:

I did mean reduction in people dependent on food banks.

No reason why a government can't make progress on some of these elements in 5 years.

Right wingers oppose many elements of Human Rights Act, Equalities Acts, Environmental Acts, Employment Acts etc. Leaving Europe exposes us to these rights being watered down considerably. Personally I would just want to see them given more emphasis not less.

I don't see it as a silly thread. Some people want to discuss and measure government more rigorously and be able to hold them to account. Election brought it home to me that we are all probably guilty of responding to headlines and soundbites rather than cool hard facts (which were distorted by both parties). I'm highly dubious about BJ/Tories motives and Brexit - but for the sake of my kids I do not want the Country to go tits up! If there is progress I will be the first to congratulate them (albeit through gritted teeth) Question for me is will we see the subtle liberal side in BJ that was glimpsed occasionally when London Mayor and whether his Remain tendencies lead to a soft brexit. His margin of victory means he could go Trump level dark side if likes of Gove, Raab, Truss, Patel, Hancock and Rees-Mogg etc are in Cabinet.

Both my kids go to grammar schools here in Kent - believe me facilities, kids and teachers are not posh! Would have much preferred them to go to a good comp like I did (Woodlands) - but not a option round here with the rather divisive two-tier education system. Private schools however have a very different quality of teaching, facilities and financial support!

clint van damme · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
No they need to learn that despises socialism and either live with it or become a fringe sixth form debating society - we won’t be renationalising anything, we won’t be denying people to spend their hard earned money on their children’s education, we won’t be hiking up company tax levels to ensure outward investment becomes a thing of the past, we wont be forcing companies to surrender shares to the state

These are the politics of the Jurassic era and no one wants them

Labour will become a tiny protest group that in the future people will deride and laugh at unless it identifies with what people want

Every policy I liked in the Labour manifesto is in use in another major western economy.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
No they need to learn that despises socialism and either live with it or become a fringe sixth form debating society - we won’t be renationalising anything, we won’t be denying people to spend their hard earned money on their children’s education, we won’t be hiking up company tax levels to ensure outward investment becomes a thing of the past, we wont be forcing companies to surrender shares to the state

These are the politics of the Jurassic era and no one wants them

Labour will become a tiny protest group that in the future people will deride and laugh at unless it identifies with what people want

I mean it, you're excellent at the repeated statements to divert and gain currency, regardless of accuracy or depth.

I'd definitely employ you as my head of comms if I were the Labour leader.

shmmeee · Dec 16, 2019

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
You want a "reduction in food banks"? How is that going to help, exactly? Maybe you mean a reduction in the NEED for people to use food banks, which is admirable, but how would it be achieved? You could argue that an increase in the minimum wage would cure the problem, but that is just as likely to lead to a reduction in the number of staff (particularly small) businesses can afford to employ, thus causing higher unemployment and closure of small businesses. An increase in benefits, perhaps? But certainly the way Universal Credit is paid initially could be done better.
Just what do you think is wrong with the existing Human Rights Act that makes you think it needs to be stronger?

And I'm sorry to be picky (see the "Things that annoy you" thread), but it's "Tories", OK?

Food bank usage is a function of the benefits system. UC and HB changes are mostly responsible as well as cuts to council budgets.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
Every policy I liked in the Labour manifesto is in use in another major western economy.

Which country has took public ownership over private shares?

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

Food banks I assume are not regulated as the press say nurses use them

clint van damme · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
Which country has took public ownership over private shares?

No idea if it's ever happened but many countries have nationalised rail and utilities.
We successfully took East coat rail back in to public ownership for 4 years. Admittedly there was no buy out or compensation required.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
No idea if it's ever happened but many countries have nationalised rail and utilities.
We successfully took East coat rail back in to public ownership for 4 years. Admittedly there was no buy out or compensation required.

None then

clint van damme · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
None then

Could be, I don't know.
But the policy I support is nationalisation and it is used in several countries (including the uk) so it's not some stone age policy as you are trying to make out.

Sick Boy · Dec 16, 2019

£350million a week into the NHS.

shmmeee · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
No idea if it's ever happened but many countries have nationalised rail and utilities.
We successfully took East coat rail back in to public ownership for 4 years. Admittedly there was no buy out or compensation required.

Wasn’t the rail plan to wait for franchises to end anyway so no compensation needed?

clint van damme · Dec 16, 2019

shmmeee said:
Wasn’t the rail plan to wait for franchises to end anyway so no compensation needed?

Yeah. The others would be costly. But on the day when the regulator has told water companies they need to reduce leakage by 16% and reduce bills by 50 Pound a year you have to wonder why we are allowing a private company to make money out of a vital natural resource instead of controlling it ourselves.

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